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how can we make moves when we don't know what we're trying to do?
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djsunyc
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2/18/2007  9:27 PM
before we can make moves, we have to figure out 2 things:

1. are we rebuilding (where wins don't matter as much as development) or trying to win and get into the playoffs?

2. are we a 1/2 court team or an open court one?

half of our roster has under 3 years of experience yet we also have an over $100 mil payroll with 6+ year vets getting major playing time. our two main cogs in the roster like the 1/2 court style in marbury and curry while the others are more suited to an open court/open flow system.

so what are we doing? once those decisions are made - and i don't think they have, then we can make moves accordingly.

50+ games into the season, our offense is geared to dump it down to curry. when that's not working, we're left to isiah making crazy sub patterns just to find something that works. that's how our season has gone so far. so i'm not sure what our identity is or where we're headed as a team.
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misterearl
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2/18/2007  9:40 PM
Whachoo mean "we"?

djsu - don't you think the wording of this thread is a bit problemmatic?

>>i'm not sure what our identity is or where we're headed as a team.

Which way is up?

once a knick always a knick
nyk4ever
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2/18/2007  9:45 PM
These are all good questions DJ. They will be answered when someone is brought in to run this team who has a definitive plan.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
arkrud
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2/18/2007  9:48 PM
So djsunyc - out team is disfunc?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
holfresh
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2/18/2007  9:48 PM
Rome is not built in a day...Fact remains that this is a .500 team after a slow start in November..Everyone in this forum would have taken 40 wins with our young core getting better...It's happening...All of a sudden we have no direction?

djsunyc
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2/18/2007  9:52 PM
Posted by misterearl:

djsu - don't you think the wording of this thread is a bit problemmatic?

ok, i'll make it more MS style:

what the ****** ***** * ***** ***** ***** isiah ***** **** *** ***** bust ***** ***** crawford's terrible ***** **** ***** *** **** ***** ********* are we going to do?

djsunyc
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2/18/2007  9:52 PM
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.

Bonn1997
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2/18/2007  9:55 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.
Rome was not built in 4 days.
Therefore Isiah deserves more than 4 years to build a respectable team and Dolan deserves more than one decade. It makes sense!
holfresh
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2/18/2007  9:58 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.

What number of wins would you have been satisfied with at the start of the season?

BRIGGS
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2/18/2007  9:58 PM
Dallas had bad defensive team and good team and morphed. We have some good players but the bottom line is were going to have to PART with Frye imho--get Balkman on the floor and find 2-3 vets who can play--like dallas has guy who play both ways--that fit in etc... we need shot blocker shooter good point guard and a 3 man--so we have needs--that is why we are -7--

maybe knicks can package frye with this and that for a lewis or carter

maybe grab a mikki moore and chucky atkins in split mle?
RIP Crushalot😞
arkrud
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2/18/2007  10:00 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.
Rome was not built in 4 days.
Therefore Isiah deserves more than 4 years to build a respectable team and Dolan deserves more than one decade. It makes sense!

Barbarians came too early...


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
nixluva
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2/18/2007  10:09 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

before we can make moves, we have to figure out 2 things:

1. are we rebuilding (where wins don't matter as much as development) or trying to win and get into the playoffs?

2. are we a 1/2 court team or an open court one?

half of our roster has under 3 years of experience yet we also have an over $100 mil payroll with 6+ year vets getting major playing time. our two main cogs in the roster like the 1/2 court style in marbury and curry while the others are more suited to an open court/open flow system.

so what are we doing? once those decisions are made - and i don't think they have, then we can make moves accordingly.

50+ games into the season, our offense is geared to dump it down to curry. when that's not working, we're left to isiah making crazy sub patterns just to find something that works. that's how our season has gone so far. so i'm not sure what our identity is or where we're headed as a team.

The answers to your questions aren't that hard to assertain.

1. We aren't doing a traditional rebuild which is obvious by the presence of so many vets. If we did do a traditional rebuild that wouldn't guarantee that we'd be any closer to a title. Name the teams that won a title in the last ten years by doing a complete rebuild where you go with youth thru the draft? If we had tried to do that when isiah 1st got here that would've required that we could truly backup the truck and get rid of all the big contracts and then basically lose big for a few years in order to collect high draft picks in search of a stud that could carry us to a title. Then we'd have to hope we could sign a Shaq, Nash or Rasheed type FA to make it all work.

2. This is most definitely a halfcourt team and you should be glad that it is. For one thing that is what has traditionally been most successful in the playoffs.

3. The offense is still in development because for the most part so are some of our players. We're still waiting for someone else to emerge as a consistent offensive threat. It seems we're not patient enough to let our young players develop. 5 of which have less than 2 full years of experience. Guys like Jamal, Q and Jared are role players and Curry is just starting to make the kind of impact that many thought he should have.

The fact that Jamal, Curry, Q and Jared have some good years under their belt doesn't mean that they should have their roles on this team all figured out. That too may take a bit more time. Isiah has to figure out how best to use these players. You can see that starting to happen in many ways. The main thing that keeps them from being the kind of team that we want them to be is on the defensive end. It's not anything offensive heck we're one of the higher scoring teams in the league.

To me the issue is will Isiah be able to get this team to play solid D consistently enough to win games?
Do we have the players necessary to play good D? If not what do we need in order to achieve that? Is it a big deal for Ron Artest that get's this team over the top?

Part of the problem with the current roster from my view is Isiah himself. He has to get back to a tighter rotation. He has to start using guys like Balkman and even Collins a bit more in order to get more defensive effort. Play Lee more in the 2nd half. Play Frye more and try to get both of them to commit to more defensive effort and to play a bit smarter as well. If Isiah doesn't focus even more on D, then there's no way this team will improve this year, as presently constructed.
nyk4ever
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2/18/2007  10:11 PM
Jesus Nix, you make it sound like this is a championship team once everyone figures out their roles.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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2/18/2007  10:14 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.

What number of wins would you have been satisfied with at the start of the season?


after they fired lb, i said 40 wins + playoffs is the least they can do.

but i would've been equally satisfied with 23 wins if we traded some major pieces and addressed the need for defense and cap room down the road. i don't mind taking steps back if there's a plan in place to make a leap forward down the road. the bobcats are on pace to win < 30 games again this year, but i would trade rosters with them in a split second b/c they can actually acquire a franchise player to play with gerald and ok4 - two defensive minded players. they can make a quantum leap and STAY there if they get a top pick in this draft or sign someone (like vince) via free agency.
islesfan
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2/18/2007  10:15 PM
Well we were supposed to be close to a .500 team last year if not for Larry. So it stands to reason that with a coach that they wanted to play for, fewer veterans to block playing time, the addition of Jared "The Glue" Jeffries and Balkman, fewer offcourt distractions and more defined roles, you'd think they'd at least be a few games over .500 at this point.

But let's get back on topic. What is our direction?

Are we truly building around Curry?

What do they do about Curry's deficiencies on defense and on the boards? Can they get a legit PF in here?

Where do we stand on Frye, Lee and Nate? Are they building blocks or trade bait?

How long do we pretend that Marbury is part of a rebuilding team when it looks like he's already breaking down?

When do you buy out Francis, James and Rose?

If Isiah gets an extension, do you force him to remain the coach when you know he wants to get back to the front office without being on the firing line every day.

Will he except that?

Are we looking to finally manage the cap?

So many more questions and a complete moron responsible for finding the answers.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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2/18/2007  10:15 PM
Posted by djsunyc:


after they fired lb, i said 40 wins + playoffs is the least they can do.

but i would've been equally satisfied with 23 wins if we traded some major pieces and addressed the need for defense and cap room down the road. i don't mind taking steps back if there's a plan in place to make a leap forward down the road. the bobcats are on pace to win < 30 games again this year, but i would trade rosters with them in a split second b/c they can actually acquire a franchise player to play with gerald and ok4 - two defensive minded players. they can make a quantum leap and STAY there if they get a top pick in this draft or sign someone (like vince) via free agency.

I agree 100% DJ in all facets of your post.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
holfresh
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2/18/2007  11:04 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.

What number of wins would you have been satisfied with at the start of the season?


after they fired lb, i said 40 wins + playoffs is the least they can do.

but i would've been equally satisfied with 23 wins if we traded some major pieces and addressed the need for defense and cap room down the road. i don't mind taking steps back if there's a plan in place to make a leap forward down the road. the bobcats are on pace to win < 30 games again this year, but i would trade rosters with them in a split second b/c they can actually acquire a franchise player to play with gerald and ok4 - two defensive minded players. they can make a quantum leap and STAY there if they get a top pick in this draft or sign someone (like vince) via free agency.

I like all of what Nixula had to say...The Knicks are rebuilding but not in a traditional kind of way..Number of victories was not as important to me as the development of the young players..I was looking about 40 wins...That number and playoffs are not out of the question...I think defense has to be emphasized on this team..If we are rebuilding, and I think we are, then we do nothing...No trades, no free agent, no starphucking, nothing..Let the young pieces develop and see how far they can take us in the next year...Then we decide whether they are worth building around...Curry has shown us enough this year to make us wonder what else can he do...The Knicks are (Curry playing decent defense and one of our power forwards stepping up defensively) from being a legitimate second round playoff team...This team has direction, just need a little patients from it's fans...
fishmike
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2/18/2007  11:59 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

Rome is not built in a day...

i agree, but there was an architect and there were plans drawn up before construction began.

What number of wins would you have been satisfied with at the start of the season?

based on how many moves he's made and how much money he's spent in 3 years? I would say 45 would be fair. Based on the fact that most of those moves have been poor, shortsighted and that money spent pissed away? 37

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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2/19/2007  12:01 AM
Posted by islesfan:

What do they do about Curry's deficiencies on the boards?

lol, they lead the league in rebounding.
¿ △ ?
bobs3304
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2/19/2007  12:05 AM
Glad you made a thread out of this J.

My answer:


1.) We suck, we're not rebuilding. Rebuilding involves scrapping the talent, usually shedding cap, and gaining draft picks.

We've added cap and talent, and lost draft picks.

Example of rebuilding: New Orleans --- kept only PJ, dropped Baron, Wesley, Mashburn, Magloire.



2.) It's simple -- find out how we rank as far as transition points, and you'll find out whether we're fastcourt or not.

Fundamentally we're halfcourt though. We can build around Q, Marbury, and Curry, but still need a halfcourt sniper, and an enforcer, plus another shooter or 2 off the bench.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
how can we make moves when we don't know what we're trying to do?

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