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Eddy Curry Discussion (With Some Stat Analysis)
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Solace
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1/12/2007  11:46 AM
2006 - 18.8 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 0.7 asts, 0.6 blk, 3.4 pf, 0.4 stl, 3.3 TO, 59% FT, 57.6% FG

For point of comparison, how about Raef LaFrentz when he was on Denver when he was about 24/25?

14.4 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.2 asts, 3.0 blk, 3.4 pf, 0.6 stl, 1.2 TO, 67% FT, 47% FG, 43.5% 3p

I actually think those stats are better than Curry's are now. And where did he go? He peaked at 25. This is not uncommon for NBA players, especially big men, to peak at relatively young ages.

The five most similar seasons at his age:

19. Darius Miles (886) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
20. Al Jefferson (889) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
21. Wayman Tisdale (919) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
22. Rasheed Wallace (914) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
23. Jeff Ruland (924) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

None of those players became franchise players. It looks like it ranges from best player on the team to role player with the Eddy comparisons. Let's say that Eddy winds up being a wider Rasheed Wallace with obviously less shooting range. That's actually not bad, and certainly Sheed + Lee + a solid backcourt could be a decent team in the east for years, but... is it an NBA championship caliber team? I say no. I think there's a lot of statistical evidence to suggest that *most* players stop making any major improvements by 26 or 27. Are there exceptions? Sure. But, you have to take the likely reality, that Eddy's progress in the next 2-3 years is all we get... and that's it. There is something to be said for a player, as they get older, they get more basketball smarts, but physically they can't do what they used to. That's the reason for the cap, more significant once they pass 30.

I'm getting a little tired of Eddy Curry being the "obvious evidence" of Isiah having a plan. I actually admire what Eddy has done this season, but he's not a well rounded player. We knew this when we were getting him. Eddy is a one-dimensional center. He's improved. I would even say it's possible that one day, Eddy scores say 22 ppg for an entire season. Maybe more. It's not out of the question. His defense is what concerns me. I can't think of many centers who are *this* bad defensively. Few blocks, rebounds, steals, assists, but a lot of turnovers for a center who doesn't handle the ball *that much*. Can Eddy really fix things when he has *that* many deficiencies?

There's an overwhelming feeling on this board that Eddy is a kid. I beg to differ. He's 24. I've been told I'm being biased by saying that he's within a few years of hitting his cap, if he hasn't already hit it. I'm talking likelihoods, there are no definites. But, it's a lot more likely that Eddy peaks at 26, then that he becomes a dominant force in all aspects at 30. It's getting close, what you see is what you get. Time to put up or shut up. Hey, I'll cheer for Eddy either way, but if Eddy turning into Shaq/Ewing is our ultimate plan for a championship, I think we're in trouble.

Discuss.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
AUTOADVERT
franco12
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1/12/2007  11:52 AM
here is a stats question- and I am not sure that 82games necessarily shows this or not- but does the fact that other teams double Eddy enable Lee & others to exploit openings on the glass?

So- for Lee- does someone have numbers for him on something like a per 48 min basis that shows his rebounds with EC on the court vs. off the court?
Solace
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1/12/2007  11:55 AM
Posted by franco12:

here is a stats question- and I am not sure that 82games necessarily shows this or not- but does the fact that other teams double Eddy enable Lee & others to exploit openings on the glass?

So- for Lee- does someone have numbers for him on something like a per 48 min basis that shows his rebounds with EC on the court vs. off the court?

I'm not sure such a stat is kept track of. Something else interesting from 82games.com. Net PER at position:

PG -3.0
SG +0.7
SF -3.1
PF +0.4
C -0.2

Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider.

Also points out that our worst positions are PG and SF. Not surprising either.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
kam77
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1/12/2007  11:58 AM
"Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider."

Hold up, that statistic takes into account the Center position, not just Eddy Curry who plays 32 minutes a game. I could be wrong becuase i haen't reseasched it, but what if the -.2 is due to negative play from other guys playing Center?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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1/12/2007  12:01 PM
Solace,

Raef Lafrentz never commanded a double team while he was shooting those jumpers. Thats the danger of just comparing stats.

Al Jefferson may become a franchise player. Boston didn't want to part with him for AI. Rasheed Wallace was a franchise player in Portland. He won a title. Ruland was a good player.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
babyKnicks
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1/12/2007  12:03 PM
is this an all out "let's find as many 'stats' that we can bash curry with" day?

That says C, not Curry. Frye, Lee, Cato, Jerome and sometimes Malik played center this year.

I'm still not so sure why a new curry bashing thread needed to be started, but it's definitely clear...you do not like curry.

[Edited by - babyKnicks on 01-12-2007 12:03 PM]
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
Bonn1997
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1/12/2007  12:03 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by franco12:

here is a stats question- and I am not sure that 82games necessarily shows this or not- but does the fact that other teams double Eddy enable Lee & others to exploit openings on the glass?

So- for Lee- does someone have numbers for him on something like a per 48 min basis that shows his rebounds with EC on the court vs. off the court?

I'm not sure such a stat is kept track of. Something else interesting from 82games.com. Net PER at position:

PG -3.0
SG +0.7
SF -3.1
PF +0.4
C -0.2

Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider.

Also points out that our worst positions are PG and SF. Not surprising either.
Every statistic you can find points to the conclusion that Eddy's strengths and weaknesses roughly cancel each other out. That's just one more to the long stack of evidence.

Solace
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1/12/2007  12:05 PM
Posted by kam77:

"Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider."

Hold up, that statistic takes into account the Center position, not just Eddy Curry who plays 32 minutes a game. I could be wrong becuase i haen't reseasched it, but what if the -.2 is due to negative play from other guys playing Center?

Actually you have an interesting point, but for a different reason. Bonn pointed out that a significant portion of Eddy's minutes are counted at PF. I'll nix the first post. Eddy's center numbers have his relative PER as positive, as his PF numbers show relative negative PER. Jerome James gets slaughtered when he plays center, according to the PER rankings, while Cato has been awesome. The main player I left out, though, is Channing Frye, who gets decimated at both PF and center (they seem to be counting Channing as the center when he's on the floor with either Curry or Frye - odd).

You're right. I interpreted that statistic wrong, because Curry is only getting 40% of the team's minutes at center, due to 82games giving him 27% of the team's minutes at PF.

The other thing interesting with those numbers is it shows Eddy is less effective with Channing Frye on the court (as is Frye), but plays well next to Lee. Hmm...
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
TheGame
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1/12/2007  12:05 PM
No one is disputing that Curry has some holes in his game but comparing him to LaFrentz is not a good comparison. They have totally different games. As long as Curry keeps his weight down and can avoid back or knee injuries, he will be dominating people in the post for the next 6-8 years. Right now he cannot be guarded one-on-one. Once he learns how to effectively pass out of the double team and we surround him with shooters, our offense will be very tough to stop. LaFrentz never had that kind of impact on a team and even at his best, I would not consider him better than Curry right now.

Could Curry have peaked? It is possible, but you can say the same for Wade, LeBron or any other young player in this league. Plenty of young players with promise don't continue to develop due to injury, laziness, or a bad team situation or whatever other reason. But Curry is showing that he is willing to work and as long as he continues to be willing to do that and can avoid injury, there is no reason to think that he will not continue to improve. We are not asking him to learn to jump higher or run faster. He needs to improve the mental aspects of the game, which are things that most players continue to develop throughout their careers.

Trust the Process
Solace
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1/12/2007  12:07 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Every statistic you can find points to the conclusion that Eddy's strengths and weaknesses roughly cancel each other out. That's just one more to the long stack of evidence.

They do pretty much cancel out. His roland rating is a +0.3, which is slightly in his favor, but nothing that heavy. I'd be curious to see, though, if we traded Frye and Curry and Lee got most of the minutes in pair if Curry's roland rating would improve heavily. What I posted earlier seems to heavily indicate that Curry suffers most playing next to Channing Frye.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
SugarRayRichardson
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1/12/2007  12:08 PM
Posted by kam77:

"Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider."

Hold up, that statistic takes into account the Center position, not just Eddy Curry who plays 32 minutes a game. I could be wrong becuase i haen't reseasched it, but what if the -.2 is due to negative play from other guys playing Center?


Its actually pretty disingenious. If he was looking at 82games.com he completly ignored the truth via Curry and his opposition on the first page to go to the position page for centers. Currys per is 18.6. His Opposition is 17.1. What jerome James or Malik rose do playing center has nothing to do with Curry.
Pretty sad when people will flat out ignore the truth to reach for something that points in the opposite direction.

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Solace
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1/12/2007  12:08 PM
I actually still say that Curry is a keeper. An interesting development of this discussion is that it's pointing more towards Frye being the major problem. Hmmm...
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Solace
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1/12/2007  12:10 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by kam77:

"Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider."

Hold up, that statistic takes into account the Center position, not just Eddy Curry who plays 32 minutes a game. I could be wrong becuase i haen't reseasched it, but what if the -.2 is due to negative play from other guys playing Center?


Its actually pretty disingenious. If he was looking at 82games.com he completly ignored the truth via Curry and his opposition on the first page to go to the position page for centers. Currys per is 18.6. His Opposition is 17.1. What jerome James or Malik rose do playing center has nothing to do with Curry.
Pretty sad when people will flat out ignore the truth to reach for something that points in the opposite direction.

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

We're having a discussion. I was corrected and admitted my error. That's more than I can say for anything you've ever posted in the past. Stop being a troll.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
SugarRayRichardson
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1/12/2007  12:13 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by kam77:

"Those stats show that while Eddy's offense has been great, he's actually allowed opposing centers (who generally aren't great scorers) to have just a nudge better than equal success against him. That's something to consider."

Hold up, that statistic takes into account the Center position, not just Eddy Curry who plays 32 minutes a game. I could be wrong becuase i haen't reseasched it, but what if the -.2 is due to negative play from other guys playing Center?


Its actually pretty disingenious. If he was looking at 82games.com he completly ignored the truth via Curry and his opposition on the first page to go to the position page for centers. Currys per is 18.6. His Opposition is 17.1. What jerome James or Malik rose do playing center has nothing to do with Curry.
Pretty sad when people will flat out ignore the truth to reach for something that points in the opposite direction.

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607NYK.HTM

We're having a discussion. I was corrected and admitted my error. That's more than I can say for anything you've ever posted in the past. Stop being a troll.

Your posts speak for themselves. Anyone with a brain can see what your motive is and as far as being a troll once again your posts speak for themselves.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
franco12
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1/12/2007  12:13 PM
I don't think anyone is trying to bash curry- its just that some numbers seem to say one thing, others another.

Curry has been dominant in games- and outside of Yao spanking him, I haven't myself seen games where Curry has gotten outplayed.

Yes- he is dominant on the offensive end and soft on defense- but to my mind, he isn't as weak on defense as he is strong on offense- if that makes any sense...
Solace
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1/12/2007  12:17 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Your posts speak for themselves. Anyone with a brain can see what your motive is and as far as being a troll once again your posts speak for themselves.

Well we all have our opinions. My "secret" motive is that I'm tying this back into Isiah having done a bad job as GM. Ooh, you caught me. Twice today I've been directly and uncourtesly insulted. Part of why people post here is so that we all can have interesting discussions. It's okay to make a mistake. I'm not afraid of admitting I've made one. Unfortunately, not everyone is "man enough" to admit their mistakes. You posted here just to start trouble. Now please troll, go away. Ruin someone's thread. Thanks.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
SugarRayRichardson
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1/12/2007  12:23 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

Your posts speak for themselves. Anyone with a brain can see what your motive is and as far as being a troll once again your posts speak for themselves.

Well we all have our opinions. My "secret" motive is that I'm tying this back into Isiah having done a bad job as GM. Ooh, you caught me. Twice today I've been directly and uncourtesly insulted. Part of why people post here is so that we all can have interesting discussions. It's okay to make a mistake. I'm not afraid of admitting I've made one. Unfortunately, not everyone is "man enough" to admit their mistakes. You posted here just to start trouble. Now please troll, go away. Ruin someone's thread. Thanks.

1) Your mistake wasnt a mistake. You knew exactly what you were doing.
2) Your calling people trolls is the only name calling I saw and its pretty hypocritical looking at your posts/threads
3) If the truth about Currys numbers ruined your thread that just shows once again how disingenious your motive was.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Andrew
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1/12/2007  12:24 PM
SugarRayRichardson...how about reading the actually posts.
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SugarRayRichardson
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1/12/2007  12:26 PM
Posted by Andrew:

SugarRayRichardson...how about reading the actually posts.

I read it and I noticed I was not the only one that came to the same conclusion. :)
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Andrew
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1/12/2007  12:30 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:

I read it and I noticed I was not the only one that came to the same conclusion. :)

An while those other people responded with valid points which were conceded by Solace, you in turn chose to accuse someone you don't even know of having a hidden agenda. Thats the difference.
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Eddy Curry Discussion (With Some Stat Analysis)
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