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With this much love and concern for LEE, and with all this hate for Isiah
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kam77
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1/3/2007  9:35 PM
What about giving the GM some credit for a

A) trade sending Van Horn (out of the league) and Doleac (bench player) for TT/Nazr.

and many said ... Nazr Who? While Isiah said he wouldn't make the deal without him.

B) trade sending the reasonably signed Mohammed to SA for some picks and Malik.

and from these moves we find ourselves with David Lee

We ALL love David Lee right?

How about some love for how we got him?
How about some praise for the guy who saw in him what we see in him today.

N'aaah much easier to just ignore that small fact while you're bashing Isiah over his lineups.

Lee, Balkman, Nate, Curry... all the product of Trader Isiah.

Do we like any of these guys? I do.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
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holfresh
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1/3/2007  9:38 PM

You are pissing in the wind....
crzymdups
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1/3/2007  9:45 PM
this is why I don't completely hate Isiah. I think he's a great job in personnel in SOME areas and a horrible one in others. any time he's touched a draft pick, it's worked out. it's the other stuff, primarily coach hiring, but also all the high priced guards he's brought in. but, yeah, stuff like Lee, Balkman and to a lesser extent Nate and Frye is why I keep giving him second chances. but every time I do that, he poops on my dinner.
¿ △ ?
kam77
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1/3/2007  9:47 PM
Without going into the mess we started with as an excuse, just look at the building blocks you say have been assembled (40% of a team by most estimates in Lee and Curry) and even if you hate everyone else you have to admit these are pieces that are either young and can be easily dealt or old and let expire in a couple more years.

Two building blocks, by many estimates, in no small feat. The critics may point to the 3 years it took, but I say that if Isiah had done nothing for three years we would have exactly ZERO building blocks.. no Lee, no Curry. Perhaps the critics will now say.. but we would have cap space to look forward to this summer if isiah had stood pat. And to that I ask... who is available?

Who is out there? Are we to believe Cleveland woulde have let go of LeBron or LeBron would bolt on Cleveland so soon? Ditto Wade or Anthony? I grant you we might have had a chance at Chris Bosh... but young guys coming off rookie contracts who are entering superstardom rarely switch teams. It happened with T-Mac as a recent example when he went from Toronto to Orlando. But even that was 5 years ago. It just doesn't happen, franchises aren't that dumb that they would bungle things so bad that their franchise guy would sign a one-year qualifier instead of long term money.

As it stands today, we still have a shot in four years when the LeBrons of the world get to opt out of their current deals they signed over the summer.

If you ask me for a reason Isiah should be fired, i'd say the reason is he hired Larry Brown and bungled the Coach-GM relationship. Then as an aside i'm grant you Isiah's MLE moves have not exactly been spendthrift ones. Baker, JJ1, and JJ2.

We wasted a year with LB and committed some years to fat ass free agents.

I don't think this is a hangable offense for a GM in the new york. The wasted year was pretty bad, but if you consider that despite having 1/3 of your regime in a civil war, to have constructed some legit building blocks and trade bait out of where we began three years ago is no small achievement.

The next GM will not have a bare cupboard. The next GM will have the ability to get it to the next level because we're no longer at level zero in terms of roster assets.

How many people were talking about building blocks before Isiah? Who was our building block -- Frank (out of the league) Williams?


The other GMs guy Isiah trades... they end up out of the league.
The guys Isiah drafts then is forced to let go, they stay in the league and flourish.

This man knows talent. Trevor Ariza, DerMarr Johnson, Renaldo Balkman.... all these guys are in the league because of Zeke.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
joec32033
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1/3/2007  9:48 PM
So, we traded 3 expiring contracts (Nazr, TT, Van Horn-What, $35 mil?) for the chance at he 29th pick in the draft when we could have bought a lower 1st round pick for a couple mil?

Curry-Like
Lee-Love
Balkman-Like
Nate-Not so much

How many did we overpay for? All of them.
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oohah
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1/3/2007  9:50 PM
He also spotted Jackie Butler, Matt Barnes, Udoka...he does have a good eye for talent.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
joec32033
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1/3/2007  9:51 PM
Posted by oohah:

He also spotted Jackie Butler, Matt Barnes, Udoka...he does have a good eye for talent.

oohah

noone argued that. The job for that though is called scout, not GM.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 01-03-2007 9:51 PM]
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Nalod
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1/3/2007  9:54 PM
Posted by kam77:

What about giving the GM some credit for a

A) trade sending Van Horn (out of the league) and Doleac (bench player) for TT/Nazr.

and many said ... Nazr Who? While Isiah said he wouldn't make the deal without him.

B) trade sending the reasonably signed Mohammed to SA for some picks and Malik.

and from these moves we find ourselves with David Lee

We ALL love David Lee right?

How about some love for how we got him?
How about some praise for the guy who saw in him what we see in him today.

N'aaah much easier to just ignore that small fact while you're bashing Isiah over his lineups.

Lee, Balkman, Nate, Curry... all the product of Trader Isiah.

Do we like any of these guys? I do.

and this all adds up to what? A team that is 1-4 in the worst division in all of sports!

No, winning gets you love, not moves.

Those moves all had an economic slant to them. You can't not look at the money it took to get David Lee.

Yes, isiah gets kudos for his drafting.

But in hindsight, which is easy, We could have kept Butler instead of Jerome (and to think he had Jerome as our starter before Butler and Eddy were bought in!!), and could have kept Reezy and drafted Williams instead.

Lets not confuse changes with improvement. In the end, Isiah to get these moves added a ton of salary and what does he have to show for it?


crzymdups
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1/3/2007  9:57 PM
Posted by joec32033:

So, we traded 3 expiring contracts (Nazr, TT, Van Horn-What, $35 mil?) for the chance at he 29th pick in the draft when we could have bought a lower 1st round pick for a couple mil?

Curry-Like
Lee-Love
Balkman-Like
Nate-Not so much

How many did we overpay for? All of them.

I disagree on the Nate being an overpay - we traded KT for Qrich and Nate. Qrich is one of our two best players, Nate still has promise. KT is a role player at best now.

Would you rather have Nazr re-signed or lost to FA or Lee and Collins? I don't think that's overpaying either.

Curry, still debatable until we know the final cost of the trade.

Balkman - wasn't the reason for the trade, Larry asked for that trade ().
¿ △ ?
kam77
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1/3/2007  10:08 PM
Posted by joec32033:

So, we traded 3 expiring contracts (Nazr, TT, Van Horn-What, $35 mil?) for the chance at he 29th pick in the draft when we could have bought a lower 1st round pick for a couple mil?

Curry-Like
Lee-Love
Balkman-Like
Nate-Not so much

How many did we overpay for? All of them.

The NBA charges teams a luxury tax when they go over the cap.


(sarcasm alert)
OUCH... that really hurt... damn you NBA salary cap, damn you New York Knicks.....
(/end sarcasm alert)

Its just money. And for two years Dolan let it be known Isiah had an open checkbook.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
joec32033
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1/3/2007  10:10 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by joec32033:

So, we traded 3 expiring contracts (Nazr, TT, Van Horn-What, $35 mil?) for the chance at he 29th pick in the draft when we could have bought a lower 1st round pick for a couple mil?

Curry-Like
Lee-Love
Balkman-Like
Nate-Not so much

How many did we overpay for? All of them.

I disagree on the Nate being an overpay - we traded KT for Qrich and Nate. Qrich is one of our two best players, Nate still has promise. KT is a role player at best now.

Would you rather have Nazr re-signed or lost to FA or Lee and Collins? I don't think that's overpaying either.

Curry, still debatable until we know the final cost of the trade.

Balkman - wasn't the reason for the trade, Larry asked for that trade ().

When I say overpay, I am talking about not only talen, but about long term effects on the team. I love Q-I wanted him more than Crawford when he was a FA, but we took on 6 mil a year of uninsured back for the next like 4 years-not counting last- to get a 5-7 SG?

Lee was the 29th pick. If Isiah wanted picks so bad he couldn't buy them? PHX sells off picks like there is no tommorrow. It does happen.

Larry may have asked for the Balkman trade, but if you remember, Larry was the one in love with Balkman.

The Curry trade is looking more and more like we are giving up a lottery pick.

And although I don't question his jusdge of talent it makes me wonder why Isiah has to sort of explain away his picks or rumours come out that someone else had liked them and just brought them to Isiah's attention.

Balkman-Larry liked, Isiah said PHX was gonna take him.
Lee-Rumours that Suhr was the driving force behind that one.
Frye-Isiah committed to him before he saw anyone else.
Nate-If he was 6-2 he would've bee the first pick.

I am not knocking his eye for talent because in the past it has been indisputable, it's just strange that here he seems like he is trying to explain away decisions when he didn't do that in Indy or Toronto.
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joec32033
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1/3/2007  10:14 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by joec32033:

So, we traded 3 expiring contracts (Nazr, TT, Van Horn-What, $35 mil?) for the chance at he 29th pick in the draft when we could have bought a lower 1st round pick for a couple mil?

Curry-Like
Lee-Love
Balkman-Like
Nate-Not so much

How many did we overpay for? All of them.

The NBA charges teams a luxury tax when they go over the cap.


(sarcasm alert)
OUCH... that really hurt... damn you NBA salary cap, damn you New York Knicks.....
(/end sarcasm alert)

Its just money. And for two years Dolan let it be known Isiah had an open checkbook.

You're saying it's ok to more than double the salary cap as long as we're not the ones paying? It's ok to spend $140 mil on a tam we HOPE wins 30-35 games? And then using this logic to say "well Isiah had an open check book so he COULD spend the money anyway-it doesn't matter what our performance is"? That is your definition of a good GM?

Where do you think the Cablevision rate hikes and the ticket increases go? New concession stands?



[Edited by - joec32033 on 01-03-2007 10:16 PM]
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Andrew
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1/3/2007  10:24 PM
When you overpay for marginal players, you have no room for grabbing a real player
PURE KNICKS LOVE
mintyfreshness33
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1/4/2007  12:41 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

this is why I don't completely hate Isiah. I think he's a great job in personnel in SOME areas and a horrible one in others. any time he's touched a draft pick, it's worked out. it's the other stuff, primarily coach hiring, but also all the high priced guards he's brought in. but, yeah, stuff like Lee, Balkman and to a lesser extent Nate and Frye is why I keep giving him second chances. but every time I do that, he poops on my dinner.

and im still eating it
simrud
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1/4/2007  1:29 AM
Hey, two years ago IT blew a load on Marbury's face, was really happy about it, and drafted Ariza. IT is the best GM ever. Don't you see, if a butterfly flaps her wings in IT's garden, the Knicks get a good player 2 years from the event. How can you knock the man.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
gunsnewing
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1/4/2007  2:18 AM
Posted by Andrew:

When you overpay for marginal players, you have no room for grabbing a real player


thank you Andrew. but of course this is NY, James Dolan, cap isn't an issue and we are suppose to accept the overspending right???
Erniecat
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1/4/2007  2:29 AM
Yes, Isiah has been a very good drafter over the years, with the Raps and Knicks. No denying that.

But look at everything else he has done (except the QRich trade). He has imported some of the league's worst contracts, he has wasted our MLE for two straight years (OK, it's early, but JJ2 is not exactly looking like a slick signing), he hired a coach who ended up wasting a key year for our younguns, and he himself is a lousy coach.

I would not mind if Isiah were still involved with the Knicks after this season -- as long as his role is strictly limited to scouting. Make him VP-Draft Preparation, because he does get the most out of his draft picks. But this clearly is the only thing you can reasonably say he does well.

We need a better coach and a more responsible GM. Period.
Solace
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1/4/2007  8:46 AM
Posted by kam77:

What about giving the GM some credit for a

A) trade sending Van Horn (out of the league) and Doleac (bench player) for TT/Nazr.

and many said ... Nazr Who? While Isiah said he wouldn't make the deal without him.

B) trade sending the reasonably signed Mohammed to SA for some picks and Malik.

and from these moves we find ourselves with David Lee

No credit for that. Bad trade. The Van Horn deal was a disaster. Tim Thomas more than undid any good that Nazr brought in. We had a lot of good things going with the Marbury & KVH combo and Isiah quickly broke up (probably at Marbury's request, who knows). As for Nazr, Atlanta basically gave him up for salary relief. We could've found another way to make the deal (like Doleac + DerMarr Johnson or another low priced contract we had on the team). Isiah wasn't creative enough... or he felt KVH had to go to appease Marbury, and used Nazr as an excuse, when there were other avenues to get him.

As for David Lee, the fact is he was the 30th overall pick. Considering teams like Phoenix has been selling picks every year, it would not have been hard to get David Lee regardless. We got the #21 from Phoenix and drafted Nate. We could've easily drafted Lee instead of Nate at #21, if that was our only shot... or just traded for another pick so we could have both. Bottom line is that IMHO, the Nazr trade didn't really net us Lee, since we had other opportunities to get him.

Isiah gets credit for his drafting. His trades (in some cases, especially the timing) have stunk to high heavens.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
MS
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1/4/2007  9:32 AM
No one questions his eye for talent, but he overpays for everything and straps the team with unmovable guys and in all honesty....

Balkman, love him, but a second round pick, but it took 24 million dollars to acquire a second round pick? Awful move, especially because you just buried him on the bench with that awful jefferies signing, where does that leave him, number 3 on the sf chart behind two guys that are here for four more years

Lee, you can purchase a pick that late for 3 million, but we took on Malik Rose for three years at 21 million....Love Lee, favorite player building block yes, but not the greatest move....

Nate-if Q's back goes out its a horrible move, if he stays healthy its a good move, but compounds it by trading for steve francis......

He knows talent, he is just an awful GM, he should be a scout and an advisor nothing more....Van Horn is only out of the league because he wanted to be good point though.......

He always takes his positive move and ****s it up
Queeniepop
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1/4/2007  8:12 PM
Posted by kam77:

What about giving the GM some credit for a

A) trade sending Van Horn (out of the league) and Doleac (bench player) for TT/Nazr.

and many said ... Nazr Who? While Isiah said he wouldn't make the deal without him.

B) trade sending the reasonably signed Mohammed to SA for some picks and Malik.

and from these moves we find ourselves with David Lee

We ALL love David Lee right?

How about some love for how we got him?
How about some praise for the guy who saw in him what we see in him today.

N'aaah much easier to just ignore that small fact while you're bashing Isiah over his lineups.

Lee, Balkman, Nate, Curry... all the product of Trader Isiah.

Do we like any of these guys? I do.

What you have greatly underestimated is that all of the young guys you speak of cost us a TON of money and further jeopardized our salary cap.
A) trade sending Van Horn (out of the league) and Doleac (bench player) for TT/Nazr.

and many said ... Nazr Who? While Isiah said he wouldn't make the deal without him.

The tim thomas trade ultimately resulted in Curry which also resulted in the expulsion of two high draft picks (Tyrus and ????). Maybe if we had Nazr, who would have been an expiring deal, since he was a center with a work ethic (unlike TnT, who Skiles hated), Paxson would have taken only ONE pick rather than two. Ultimately, we made the Spurs contenders and took on three years of contract in Malik Rose for the #29 and #30 pick. Though it fortunately netted us Lee and a very lesser, miniscule extent Collins (who is suspect). Nazr as an exp deal could have netted us alot or a possible sign and trade at the end of his deal. Plus, maybe we wouldnt have paid the MLE for Jerome. Malik's add'l threee years for SA very LOW draft picks, reagrdless of what they yielded IS NOT A GOOD DEAL.

Second, Kurt for Q and Nate WAS NOT A GOOD DEAL. Our best defensive player being traded for a contract in Q and his unisured back for two years beyond Kurt Thomas. Q's contract PLUS back issues that do not subside, enough that the league would NOT insure it, renders him virtually untradeable and unreliable as far as being part of the rotation. PLUS #21- "special Nate" as Nalod affectionately refers to him- a 5'6" SG who doesnt pass and is concerned with showmnanship and fisticuffs versus learning how to play in the NBA.

I wont even touch the Francis deal because I think anyone, even the BIGGEST Isiah apologists, will say this was just disgusting. And he is now PENN-Y-FIED...grotesque, nauseating and by far THE WORST MOVE EVER!

Taking on an extra year in Jalen to get Balkman at #20 for an expiring deal in Antonio (who again was our best defender) IS A BAD DEAL.

Mo for garbage but we gave up two 2nd rounders for players like Balkman, Lee, Collins etc...if Isiah is that good, think about what he coud've done with those 2 second rounders- gotten you some more of those Lees, Balkmans, Collins-types.

What happened to Jalen and MO?

They were bought out.

Why?

So Isiah can NEVER EVER make any of those deals again- even if it nets the team David Lee.



[Edited by - queeniepop on 01-04-2007 8:15 PM]
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With this much love and concern for LEE, and with all this hate for Isiah
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