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Isiah's role in all this
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TMS
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12/18/2006  1:16 PM
An excellent analogy was just brought up by Mike on the SAS show just now... he's relating Isiah telling Mardy to give a hard foul to anyone trying to get into the lane during a blowout where the starters are running up the score as a baseball MGR telling his pitcher to throw at a batter when guys steal a base w/a 6 run lead.

i think that's totally fair... just because you tell a player to foul someone hard or to throw at someone doesn't mean you're telling them to get into a brawl or to throw at a guy's head & try to hurt them... it's up to each player to interpret what the coach tells them to do & deal w/it appropriately... i highly doubt Isiah told Mardy to try & hurt anyone going up for a layup or Nate to instigate & fight anyone on the floor... it was a hard flagrant foul, but it's nothing new to this game & not something i would hold the coach responsible for.

if you're going to blame Isiah Thomas for this, then equal blame needs to go to George Karl for his players' actions & for trying to run up the score to embarass the other team... in the end, the blame needs to rest on the players' shoulders who were involved, & that's where it should stop.

just my $.02
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holfresh
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12/18/2006  1:18 PM

Also, Isiah getting the blame for this is like Riley getting the blame for Oakley's actions...But we know that will never happen...
Masterplan
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12/18/2006  1:20 PM
i blame IT more for assembling a roster that will get blown out 3 of 4 games than for explicitly ordering anything to start the brawl.
TMS
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12/18/2006  1:22 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

i blame IT more for assembling a roster that will get blown out 3 of 4 games than for explicitly ordering anything to start the brawl.

yeah, well the getting blown out part he has a direct part in, i agree.
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joec32033
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12/18/2006  1:22 PM
Posted by TMS:

An excellent analogy was just brought up by Mike on the SAS show just now... he's relating Isiah telling Mardy to give a hard foul to anyone trying to get into the lane during a blowout where the starters are running up the score as a baseball MGR telling his pitcher to throw at a batter when guys steal a base w/a 6 run lead.

i think that's totally fair... just because you tell a player to foul someone hard or to throw at someone doesn't mean you're telling them to get into a brawl or to throw at a guy's head & try to hurt them... it's up to each player to interpret what the coach tells them to do & deal w/it appropriately... i highly doubt Isiah told Mardy to try & hurt anyone going up for a layup or Nate to instigate & fight anyone on the floor... it was a hard flagrant foul, but it's nothing new to this game & not something i would hold the coach responsible for.

if you're going to blame Isiah Thomas for this, then equal blame needs to go to George Karl for his players' actions & for trying to run up the score to embarass the other team... in the end, the blame needs to rest on the players' shoulders who were involved, & that's where it should stop.

just my $.02

Only problem I have with Isiah doing it(if he did) is that he made sure to let the Nuggets know about it. You don't make the threats you just do it because a threat cna ber interpreted any way after the situation to fit any theory. This situation is a prime example.

Isiah told Mardy to foul hard. Fine. But then what happens if Mardy broke JR's neck. Keep in mind I did not think the foul was that bad or even that hard of a foul this is just for the sake of argument. Now Isiah can be accuses of sending a player out to break someone's leg(ala John Chaney). I understand he may not have wanted the outcome but it happened, and now by actually saying something to the opposing player it looks even worse.
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TMS
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12/18/2006  1:23 PM
Posted by joec32033:

Only problem I have with Isiah doing it(if he did) is that he made sure to let the Nuggets know about it. You don't make the threats you just do it because a threat cna ber interpreted any way after the situation to fit any theory. This situation is a prime example.

come on bro... you know very well that alot of chatter goes on in baseball during blowout games, & MGR's are yelling over to the other team's bench when they percieve guys are showboating or showing them up.

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Travla
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12/18/2006  1:24 PM
I'm sure if Isiah had a way to know that a brawl would break out, he wouldn't order a hard foul. Hard fouls have been ordered in all sports and will continue to be. I don't blame Zeke in any way.
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K22
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12/18/2006  1:26 PM
It doesn't matter. The team got fined a half-million bucks.

Dolan will just look underneath the cushions in his couch for it.
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TMS
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12/18/2006  1:30 PM
Posted by Travla:

I'm sure if Isiah had a way to know that a brawl would break out, he wouldn't order a hard foul. Hard fouls have been ordered in all sports and will continue to be. I don't blame Zeke in any way.


exactly... it's like blaming Joe Torre for Roger Clemens throwing at Mike Piazza & hitting him in the head... even if Torre would've told Clemens to throw at Piazza (which I'm sure he didn't), it's all on Clemens for hitting Piazza in the head & taking it that extra step too far... people are just looking for any excuse to bash Isiah in this case IMO, & i'm definitely not his biggest fan either... just trying to be objective here.
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joec32033
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12/18/2006  1:32 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by joec32033:

Only problem I have with Isiah doing it(if he did) is that he made sure to let the Nuggets know about it. You don't make the threats you just do it because a threat cna ber interpreted any way after the situation to fit any theory. This situation is a prime example.

come on bro... you know very well that alot of chatter goes on in baseball during blowout games, & MGR's are yelling over to the other team's bench when they percieve guys are showboating or showing them up.

I understand that. But once again, if you make a "threat" that can be proven it is not that hard to twist it to the outcome of an unfotunate even. I understand talking happens, but I rarely see coaches talking to opposing players the way Isiah does.



[Edited by - joec32033 on 12-18-2006 1:32 PM]
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babyKnicks
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12/18/2006  1:34 PM
But this is Isiah, and I don't like Isiah so it's his fault and he must go!
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fishmike
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12/18/2006  1:35 PM
Posted by TMS:

An excellent analogy was just brought up by Mike on the SAS show just now... he's relating Isiah telling Mardy to give a hard foul to anyone trying to get into the lane during a blowout where the starters are running up the score as a baseball MGR telling his pitcher to throw at a batter when guys steal a base w/a 6 run lead.

i think that's totally fair... just because you tell a player to foul someone hard or to throw at someone doesn't mean you're telling them to get into a brawl or to throw at a guy's head & try to hurt them... it's up to each player to interpret what the coach tells them to do & deal w/it appropriately... i highly doubt Isiah told Mardy to try & hurt anyone going up for a layup or Nate to instigate & fight anyone on the floor... it was a hard flagrant foul, but it's nothing new to this game & not something i would hold the coach responsible for.

if you're going to blame Isiah Thomas for this, then equal blame needs to go to George Karl for his players' actions & for trying to run up the score to embarass the other team... in the end, the blame needs to rest on the players' shoulders who were involved, & that's where it should stop.

just my $.02
there's a flipside to that also. Like when your the worst team in the league, the Yankee come into town and kick your tails. Now because you have no talent and cant compete at the same level as them you decide to throw at Jeter's head. Yup.. that should stop them from taking their at bats seriously when they are already up 6 in the 8th inning.

To be fair, Isiah might be totally innocent. Or he might have just said "I hope someone takes exception to them rubbing our noses in it" and thats how MArdy reacted.

If the Knicks were into year 3 of this joke, playing less than .350 basketball with guys that didnt get blown out by the 2nd qtr of most games this wouldnt be such a trigger. But, when you are failing and flailing so completely everything goes under a microscope.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
babyKnicks
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12/18/2006  1:36 PM
the red sox have been doing it for years.
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Solace
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12/18/2006  1:39 PM
Posted by fishmike:

there's a flipside to that also. Like when your the worst team in the league, the Yankee come into town and kick your tails. Now because you have no talent and cant compete at the same level as them you decide to throw at Jeter's head. Yup.. that should stop them from taking their at bats seriously when they are already up 6 in the 8th inning.

To be fair, Isiah might be totally innocent. Or he might have just said "I hope someone takes exception to them rubbing our noses in it" and thats how MArdy reacted.

If the Knicks were into year 3 of this joke, playing less than .350 basketball with guys that didnt get blown out by the 2nd qtr of most games this wouldnt be such a trigger. But, when you are failing and flailing so completely everything goes under a microscope.

That's how I feel about it too. Being bitter and starting trouble because another team kicked your tails is sad and lame. I remember Mets fans up in arms in 2000, when they had the Cards beat in the final game of that series, with I think a 7-0 lead in the 8th, and then one of the Cards pitchers hit Jay Payton in the head intentionally, almost started a brawl. Mets fans were pretty pissed at the gutless act. I relate the other night's brawl and Mardy Collins foul as the same thing. We were losing, we couldn't take it, so instead of being men, we got physical. In the end, this type of thing... nobody wins.
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TMS
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12/18/2006  1:40 PM
Posted by fishmike:

there's a flipside to that also. Like when your the worst team in the league, the Yankee come into town and kick your tails. Now because you have no talent and cant compete at the same level as them you decide to throw at Jeter's head. Yup.. that should stop them from taking their at bats seriously when they are already up 6 in the 8th inning.


you mean how Lou Piniella & his Devil Rays used to do on a regular basis? i never heard sports writers or fans calling for Lou P's head though... & again, i highly doubt ANY coach or MGR has ever told a player to throw at a player's head & try to injure them... you can send a message w/o endangering the other player... Isiah didn't tell Mardy to try & injure JR Smith, come on.
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MS
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12/18/2006  1:43 PM
Break his ****ing foot-Isiah on Bruce Bowen

The guy doesn't really have a strong case for himself, he was a cheap player, a empty suit, and this mother****er smiling and laughing all the time is disgraceful......

He is in a press conference and laughs when he asks melo why he is still in the game, this is a funny situation???????

Fire this mother****er, please he is disgraceful, nothing funny about how the team performs
babyKnicks
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12/18/2006  1:44 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:

there's a flipside to that also. Like when your the worst team in the league, the Yankee come into town and kick your tails. Now because you have no talent and cant compete at the same level as them you decide to throw at Jeter's head. Yup.. that should stop them from taking their at bats seriously when they are already up 6 in the 8th inning.


you mean how Lou Piniella & his Devil Rays used to do on a regular basis? i never heard sports writers or fans calling for Lou P's head though... & again, i highly doubt ANY coach or MGR has ever told a player to throw at a player's head & try to injure them... you can send a message w/o endangering the other player... Isiah didn't tell Mardy to try & injure JR Smith, come on.

I was thinking that as soon as I saw that post...glad someone answered better than I did.

As much as we want to ignore that this happens all the time to address our personal hatred for Knicks management and some players, it happens all the time and there is no analogy you can use that supports making a moutain out of a mole hill.

[Edited by - babyknicks on 12-18-2006 1:45 PM]
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TMS
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12/18/2006  1:45 PM
Posted by Solace:
Being bitter and starting trouble because another team kicked your tails is sad and lame. I remember Mets fans up in arms in 2000, when they had the Cards beat in the final game of that series, with I think a 7-0 lead in the 8th, and then one of the Cards pitchers hit Jay Payton in the head intentionally, almost started a brawl. Mets fans were pretty pissed at the gutless act. I relate the other night's brawl and Mardy Collins foul as the same thing. We were losing, we couldn't take it, so instead of being men, we got physical. In the end, this type of thing... nobody wins.

no doubt, that's all true that nobody wins in these types of situations, but again it's not the coach's fault that the players can't handle things like this w/o resorting to violence, is there? were Met fans holding their franchise or their MGR responsible for the gutless actions of the players? i have no problem w/Nugget fans being pissed at Isiah... i woulda been pissed at George Karl had the shoe been on the other foot... but again, you can't say Isiah instructed Mardy to try & mame JR Smith... that's ridiculous... do you really see a former player who's been through the wars & the battles on the court w/Isiah's HOF career really doing that to a young player still trying to make his way in the NBA?
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babyKnicks
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12/18/2006  1:48 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Solace:
Being bitter and starting trouble because another team kicked your tails is sad and lame. I remember Mets fans up in arms in 2000, when they had the Cards beat in the final game of that series, with I think a 7-0 lead in the 8th, and then one of the Cards pitchers hit Jay Payton in the head intentionally, almost started a brawl. Mets fans were pretty pissed at the gutless act. I relate the other night's brawl and Mardy Collins foul as the same thing. We were losing, we couldn't take it, so instead of being men, we got physical. In the end, this type of thing... nobody wins.

no doubt, that's all true that nobody wins in these types of situations, but again it's not the coach's fault that the players can't handle things like this w/o resorting to violence, is there? were Met fans holding their franchise or their MGR responsible for the gutless actions of the players? i have no problem w/Nugget fans being pissed at Isiah... i woulda been pissed at George Karl had the shoe been on the other foot... but again, you can't say Isiah instructed Mardy to try & mame JR Smith... that's ridiculous... do you really see a former player who's been through the wars & the battles on the court w/Isiah's HOF career really doing that to a young player still trying to make his way in the NBA?

And it's really hard to take an example of the Mets calling an act gutless when the act was directed at a Met player.

Is there a redsox fan out there that thinks Pedro tossing the coach to the ground?
As a yankee fan, I was glad Piazza got beaned...he was crowding the plate. (and it helped us win the series)

Is there an example when the team that was the "aggressor" and the fans taking them to task, or is it only these current knicks and these current knick fans?

Historically, fans always take the side of their team...atleast, I think that was the case.

I could be wrong.

[Edited by - babyknicks on 12-18-2006 1:48 PM]
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TMS
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12/18/2006  1:49 PM
Posted by MS:

Break his ****ing foot-Isiah on Bruce Bowen

The guy doesn't really have a strong case for himself, he was a cheap player, a empty suit, and this mother****er smiling and laughing all the time is disgraceful......

He is in a press conference and laughs when he asks melo why he is still in the game, this is a funny situation???????

Fire this mother****er, please he is disgraceful, nothing funny about how the team performs


classic over reactive post right here... you really think he thought the situation was funny when he was laughing during that press conference?
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