Isn't it coincidental that most (if not all) the issues and requests Brown stated last year are proving correct this year?

-He wanted J.Rose, Taylor, Marbury, J.James off the team for chemistry and not playing defense reasons last year. Surprisingly enough, they tell him that was impossible and that he was only trying to get himself fired. Then in preseason, we release Mo Taylor and J.Rose. Any of us here think J.James shouldn't get the same treatment? Marbury probably has to stay b/c he has too much money left.

-He wanted us to go after J.Jeffries and focus on getting defensive players in the off-season. Isiah fires Brown and then picks up Jeffries, Balkman and Collins. Later adding Cato.

-He complains that Curry is out of shape and didn't play him many minutes because of his poor conditioning and excessive fouling. Now we watch Curry get outplayed by Pachulia, J.O'Neal (ok - great player) and various Memphis scrubs over the first 3 games. No one doubted he could score, but Brown (and most of us) doubted he could get in shape, stay on the court and play respectible defense.

-Brown ran a discliplined practice, no joking around atmostphere with many set plays. Now the players didn't listen to him, didn't run the plays right, etc... but now Isiah appears to running an "open gym" run for his offense. While it's nice to see better ball movement and the players clearly enjoy this style more - we look like a disorganized team that runs hot and cold too much.

I'm bringing this up (even though it's a dead issue) because those of us who agreed with Brown are not witnessing that his complaints and issues were true. All summer people debated about how Brown sabatoged the team and was unreasonable with his demands for the off-season. Anyone hear really see it differently? It seems pretty clear that what he wanted was/is necessary for the team to succeed. So far, I haven't seen enough positives (like Curry responding to Isiah and playing D or being in shape, Marbury stepping up his game not that he gets to play for IT, overall effort improving with hustle and defense, more development from Frye and continued improvement from Crawford) to justify this terrible decision. At least last year we lost because we didn't do the things we needed to, this year those same things don't even seem as important (defense, hustle, rebounding, etc). All that seems important is shooting, offensive fouls, bitching to the refs and trying to promote an image that this team is going to be good. Ok, I'm done bitching... SA up next

I have been thinking this since the first game, but I wasn't going to be the one to bring it up since I was one of Browns biggest backers

You do know this thread is going to start a major flame-war don't you?

LB was right, he just did not do it in the correct way. That's what got him fired.

Posted by jskinny35:

Isn't it coincidental that most (if not all) the issues and requests Brown stated last year are proving correct this year?

-He wanted J.Rose, Taylor, Marbury, J.James off the team for chemistry and not playing defense reasons last year. Surprisingly enough, they tell him that was impossible and that he was only trying to get himself fired. Then in preseason, we release Mo Taylor and J.Rose. Any of us here think J.James shouldn't get the same treatment? Marbury probably has to stay b/c he has too much money left.

-He wanted us to go after J.Jeffries and focus on getting defensive players in the off-season. Isiah fires Brown and then picks up Jeffries, Balkman and Collins. Later adding Cato.

-He complains that Curry is out of shape and didn't play him many minutes because of his poor conditioning and excessive fouling. Now we watch Curry get outplayed by Pachulia, J.O'Neal (ok - great player) and various Memphis scrubs over the first 3 games. No one doubted he could score, but Brown (and most of us) doubted he could get in shape, stay on the court and play respectible defense.

-Brown ran a discliplined practice, no joking around atmostphere with many set plays. Now the players didn't listen to him, didn't run the plays right, etc... but now Isiah appears to running an "open gym" run for his offense. While it's nice to see better ball movement and the players clearly enjoy this style more - we look like a disorganized team that runs hot and cold too much.

I'm bringing this up (even though it's a dead issue) because those of us who agreed with Brown are not witnessing that his complaints and issues were true. All summer people debated about how Brown sabatoged the team and was unreasonable with his demands for the off-season. Anyone hear really see it differently? It seems pretty clear that what he wanted was/is necessary for the team to succeed. So far, I haven't seen enough positives (like Curry responding to Isiah and playing D or being in shape, Marbury stepping up his game not that he gets to play for IT, overall effort improving with hustle and defense, more development from Frye and continued improvement from Crawford) to justify this terrible decision. At least last year we lost because we didn't do the things we needed to, this year those same things don't even seem as important (defense, hustle, rebounding, etc). All that seems important is shooting, offensive fouls, bitching to the refs and trying to promote an image that this team is going to be good. Ok, I'm done bitching... SA up next

I agree on many of the Brown points, and still would have liked have seen him turn it all around. As far as Curry get used and abused on defense? Remember, he's not getting any help on the weak side at this time. That's what makes Jeffries return crucial, unless Zeke can find someone else for the #15 spot to come in and help out. It also explains why Curry was having some early foul troubles too.

Posted by Caseloads:

LB was right, he just did not do it in the correct way. That's what got him fired.

I would agree. But look who fired him!

A lot of this is old issues, but I'll just comment on two things:

-He wanted us to go after J.Jeffries and focus on getting defensive players in the off-season. Isiah fires Brown and then picks up Jeffries, Balkman and Collins. Later adding Cato.

I don't remember Brown saying he wanted any of those players, but I could have just missed something. I DO remember many reports indicating he wanted Isiah to trade for the first player you list below:

He wanted J.Rose, Taylor, Marbury, J.James off the team for chemistry and not playing defense reasons last year.

I thought Brown was going to bring us back to the promised land. I have no idea why you commit so much money to a coach and give him a long-term deal if you are going to turn around and fire him so quickly. I guess I'll never understand that because I'm not retarded like Dolan.

Like him or not, Brown should have at least had one more season with the Knicks. Why? Because if management stood by Brown, his level of authority with the players would have increased and they would have been more inclined to listen to the man. As far as the Brown-Marbury war goes, I think Isiah should have sided with Brown. Marbury should have been told to stay home (ala Tim Thomas or Ron Artest) or get on board with the coach. Maybe I'm giving Marbury too much value, but I feel that if we put him on the Tim Thomas plan we could have eventually found a desperate suitor to take him off our hands.

Firing Brown and replacing him with lame duck Isiah creates a situation where, once again, the players don't have a true authority figure to answer to. The inmates are clearly running the asylum. Our only hope is that some player emerges as a true leader of the team. Someone on our roster has to put his foot down and make this his team. I have no idea who that could be or if it'll ever happen...

But alas, Brown is gone and this topic will soon degenerate into the usual

Posted by wsdm:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by wsdm:

A lot of this is old issues, but I'll just comment on two things:

-He wanted us to go after J.Jeffries and focus on getting defensive players in the off-season. Isiah fires Brown and then picks up Jeffries, Balkman and Collins. Later adding Cato.

I don't remember Brown saying he wanted any of those players, but I could have just missed something. I DO remember many reports indicating he wanted Isiah to trade for the first player you list below:

He wanted J.Rose, Taylor, Marbury, J.James off the team for chemistry and not playing defense reasons last year.

I posted about 4(give or take) articles from 3 years ago(Pre-Brown), when Isiah first got here about a month and a half ago that indicated not only that Isiah tried to get Jalen BEFORE Brown got here, but he actually had a 3 or 4 team deal that was rumoured done on TNT(Knicks, Twolves, Raps are 3 of the 4 teams). I am only saying this because the rumours of Rose to the Knicks started a few months after Isiah got here and were not new when Brown got here.

I also find it very possible that Francis was a Brown aquisition with the belief that Francis would eventually replace Stephon.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 11-05-2006 6:23 PM]

I have no disagreement with that. I never said Isiah didn't want Jalen. All I said was that it was repeatedly reported that Larry also wanted him.

He could have, but I seriously doubt it. Isiah did trade him in '02. But like I said it looks like he was into reacquiring him. At the VERY least I think it was a dual effort from LB and Zeke to get him. And that is something I may agree with considering Rose was acquired before Francis and LB thought he needed a playmaker because he didn't think Steph was one.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Regarding Rose, it probably went something like this:

Isiah: Sorry Larry... Jeffries, Watson, Evans, et al, are not available. The one guy who's obtainable is Jalen. I know neither yuou nor I liked him in Indy but at least he comes with a draft pick. I'd kill to have the pick to get a character guy... But... Mr Dolan wants to curtail my spending, so if you want this to happen you'd better petition hard for him. Tell Jim you really, really want him.

LB: Great, nobody I want and nothing but the usual journeymen. Well AD wants out and we got no heads out there. Worst comes to worst it's a short contract we can trade next year and a draft pick. What's Dolan's number? (Then thinks to himself: This is bull, I'll call a few of my friends and see what I can drum up for Penny.)

[Edited by - blueseats on 11-05-2006 7:55 PM]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2002.html
Isiah was Jalen's coach in Indy the last year he was traded in 2002.

2002 29 IND NBA 53 53 1937 387 871 52 146 156 186 29 220 249 197 45 29 105 148 982
CHI NBA 30 30 1216 276 587 37 100 125 149 14 110 124 158 33 16 96 103 714


Which confuses me why he chased Jalen for 3 years.

[Edited by - joec32033 on 11-05-2006 8:07 PM]

Posted by Rich:

Brown wanted Balkman and Collins, and wanted to waive Nate too.

I agree, which makes me wonder why Isiah drafted them

Posted by eViL:

I thought Brown was going to bring us back to the promised land. I have no idea why you commit so much money to a coach and give him a long-term deal if you are going to turn around and fire him so quickly. I guess I'll never understand that because I'm not retarded like Dolan.

You can blame it 'all' on Dolan. He's cost himself unbelievably millions upon millions of dollars. There's no insurance company in they're right mind who would want to cover the mess he's made. Biggest waste of money combined with weak management decisions I have ever seen in any business.