Honest opinions only guys, I'm not trying to start a flame war here. I'm a huge Knick fan that prefers to be optimistic and the pessimism is killing me. I'm prepared to show some faith and give Isiah a chance.

We know the positives and the negatives. Marbury is a selfish guy. Francis cant play defense, Curry fouls out too much, Frye doesn’t rebound etc. What about the positives? Talent in the backcourt. Huge front line. Tons of potential with Lee, Balkman and Frye.

If Isiah can somehow put things together, if he can get Curry to play mean, Stephon & Francis to co-exist and give Lee and Balkman minutes, we have a good chance to be a dangerous team in the Atlantic. Like nixluva said in another thread, we aren’t playing at our best yet. We will be “clicking (firing) on all cylinders” by the all-star break!

What if the Knicks play.500 basketball and show constant improvement game in and game out? What if the players look motivated and want to win games? What if you see improvement and the will to play for Isiah? The Nets are one injury away from being dead. What if the Knicks are number 1 in the Atlantic? Will everyone that wants Isiah fired show some faith in him?

So martin, Nalod, fishmike, nyk4ever, gunsnewing, djsunyc, joec, islesfan etc...what do you want to see from this Knick team in terms of significant progress? hustle play, win-loss record, change in philosophy? What is key for you guys to have faith in this group of Knicks?

WHERE THE F**K IS HARDCOREKNICKSFAN? WE REALLY NEED SOME OPTIMISM HERE!

well... after 20 years it appears Elgin Baylor finally "got it" so who knows.. I guess there's hope for anyone right?

My problem with Isiah is he has made moves that under zero circumstances make sense on any level. When I look back at how bad Layden was he at least did things that had some plan behind them. Spoon and Deke were at least productive MLE players. McDyess was a 20/8 frontcourt player to put next to Houston and Sprewell who were still at the top of their games. Obviously there werent good moves, but at least you can see the logic, albeit faulty.

What was the logic in giving up a pick for Mo Taylor? For signing Jerome James to 5 years when you need young building blocks and are coming off a 30-whatever win season. How about Vin Baker? Or trading for Francis when you had Marbury. How about constantly overpaying in every trade, and not giving yourself minimal protection in trades (see Eddie Curry disaster).

Look at the last 3 trading deadlines:
team was playing VERY well, winning games, en route to playoffs, had chemistry, KVH was having a great rebirth (a guy I didnt like) and the coach asked Isiah to stay pat. Instead we get Tim Thomas and Nazr

Next year? Mo Taylor and Malik Rose

Next year? Jalen Rose and Steve Francis

And now he's coach. Its hard to stomach

Last year with Larry, there was at least someone with a long history who had eventually won everywhere he coached. Who's teams also had shown major improvement after roug first years, so at least there was a trend there.

Whats the trend w/ Isiah? Whats the trend with Marbury, Curry, Francis, etc for that matter?

Its not good, and there's not much there for me to believe in.

HOWEVER

I cant root for Isiah to fail. Its like rooting for Bush to fail. Yea, I want him out of office but not at the expense of more dead soldiers in Iraq or economic meltdowns.

So I root for the guys I can root for to play well. For Crawford to find his mojo, for Curry to become anorexic, for Frye to play well, Lee and Balkman to do their thing, for Francis to be the happy Francis. Most of all I'm hoping and rooting for this group to like each other, and want to play hard for each other, as a group. If that can happen we can make some progress.

Our pick is a wash next year, so there's ZERO point in losing. I hope the young guys play well and Isiah has learned that the key to success is more guys like the ones he's drafted and less guys like the one's he's traded for.

Silver, I don't think there is anything that will cause certain posters to trust Isiah and his knicks.

Every knick win is attached with a disclaimer and every knick loss is the end of the world (and another 40 threads proclaiming it).

You still have us that are with you no matter what...but I honestly believe that the deep rooted hate for Isiah (and on most levels Marbury) and the combination of both of them will never wane until a championship is won.

And that hasn't happened since 1973.

Originally posted by Nolad:
You have to respect any organization that has the balls to trade away Starbury. Especially Phoenix. They didn't get much back for him, but somtimes when you have a plan you can take steps to achieve them.

Well, what if Steve Nash had decided to stay in Dallas. Where would Pheonix's plan be then after they basically gave away Marbury? My point is that you can have a plan, but if things don't go as expected, your plan is going to fail and you are going to look like you had no plan at all. IT had a plan and took risks on Curry, Q, and Marbury. So far the plan has not worked and because of that, you conclude there was no plan. What if LB had not been trying to sabotage the season? What if Curry had been in shape and improved the fundamentals of his game? What if Q's back did not give him problems last year and his brother was not killed? If those things happen, we would have an entirely different view of this team and more people would be saying that IT's plan is paying some dividends.

Game... thats totally fair, so what part of the plan were the guys I mentioned? There's such a thing as checks and balances. If McDyess is healthy does that make Layden a great GM? Because if he is that Knick team was as good as any in the East. Or is Layden bad because he invested all his chips into a horse with a broken leg? When you look at the past problems the guys Isiah has brought in why cant you say the same? Marbury has never won, Curry has always had work ethic/weight issues, Crawford has always had bad shot selection.. these are the guys Isiah risked the future of the franchise on. Could they work out? Of course.. there's always the possibility but is that a good bet?

Hey, maybe George Bush tax the rich and give it to the middle class. Its possible right?

let not start that politcal **** hear.....

And the year the Knicks traded for McDyess, in all honesty Don Chaney should have been up for coach of the year, they played the entire season with a frontcourt of spoon, thomas, and harrington all of whom played hard unlike most of these misfits and they got off to a 1-9 start because the didn't have sprewell. Those teams may have been unwatchable but it least they played hard something this group rarely does.....

I hate this thread because there is no way anyone should trust Isiah, Marbury is not a winner; why because he has money? Thats not the measure of a man, his mother "Its not your fault, its the other players" He has no respect in his profession, zero most players trash him so how has he won. He has cheated the game, and there is Isiah right there to blow him and let him know that its alright........The AROD comments with Zeke "Hell no, your nothing like him he makes 10 million more than you?" The Balkman comments directed at Greg Anthony?

We have a loser running the Franchise in Dolan; another loser hiring losers for more money 5 million than any GM Steve Mills; a loser brining in other loser in Isiah; and a loser who is supposed to lead this team in Marbury! How do we win as fans, we can't because the fact of the matter is that Steph doesn't care about his legacy "look good first and win second" niether does Francis, Crawford and Nate are street players concerned with highlight plays, and our centers are concerned with feeding themselves over rebounding.

What is left to trust

Posted by Silverfuel:

What if he gets the team to play the way we want them too? What if everything goes right for the Knicks till December or Jan? Will you change your mind? Stranger stuff has happened so its possible that the Knicks can be all that they can be.

That's the difference between enjoyment and trust. Enjoyment is fleeting, trust is lasting.

I don't think half a season builds trust. Heck, our first 12 months with Marbury showed moderate success, and still we find ourselves climbing out of the gutter now.

No trust without leadership. That's the first step.

it's like playing a rookie - do you keep him out on the court if he continues to make mistakes or do you take minutes away until he learns how to fix them? two philosophies - neither are wrong. but the end goal is to make the player better.

so if you think isiah needs to get canned, then hoping the team loses to expedite his departure is still wanting the same end goal as those cheering for this team...and that's for the team to eventually win.

either/or, it doesn't matter b/c we're all losers posting on these boards anyway so we're all in the same boat.

Posted by TheGame:

If this team makes the playoffs and avoids giving Chicago another lottery pick, IMO IT will have earned another season to see what he can do. Jalen Rose will hopefully drop off the books and IT will have a more reasonable contract(M. Rose) to use as trade bait for a good player. I honestly think, despite all the missteps, that this team is only 1 or 2 good players away from being a good team in this league, especially if our young players can continue to grow. I trust IT's ability to draft and think that he has learned from his past mistakes. The Francis deal was terrible but that was more LB than IT. IT made that deal to try to support LB, not realizing that LB only wanted to make the deal because he knew it would blow up in IT's face or would make it easier to trade Marbury. The JJ1 deal was also terrible, but at the time we did not have one player over 6'8'' and we desperately needed a legitimate center, so I at least understood the reasoning behind the decision. IT's other deals are debatable whether they were good or bad for the team. There can be no question that IT has made mistakes, but for the most part, I like his moves since Francis (adding Balkman and JJ2) and think that he is growing as a GM and hopefully a coach. If he can succeed this season, he will have earned my trust for one more year.

are we going to be a good team or a team that's building towards a title? i ask b/c there's a difference.

no chance. BS said it best, Trust is lasting...even if we make a magical run like camby/spree and company (they were an 8th seed and barely made the playoffs) everyone will still be saying we have no future and it's not building towards a title.

My feelings (and they are well documented) are that the plan all along was to
1. pick up a franchise Name (marbury) at any costs as soon as possible
2. go after the Chicago Bulls Cornerstones (curry/crawford) and build a supporting cast around them
3. draft a solid supporting cast to fill in every position (nate, frye, reezy, lee, balkman, that other guy)
4. get rid of every layden player (done)

In order to accomplish this, I gave him 3 years. Once the team was in place, I give him 2 years to make a run for a title.

Everything else is nit picking IMHO.

the team was always assembled to be coached by isiah thomas. He stood in the tunnell, he watched every home game and most road games. He knows what he has, so makes sense that he should coach.

JJ1, TT, Vin Baker and any other deal that can be deemed stupid, still does not effect the ability of the assembled team to make a run at a title over the next 2+ seasons.

Everything that happened last year went against the Plan. Larry Brown had to be hired. Everyone would have called for his head...Phil Jackson said no, and he had to get the big name coach or else...so he did. Who knew brown can only coach one type of player and is unable to coach overrated players that lack motivation to do their best...who knew?

We traded Reezy, who IMHO, in the current offense being instilled would excel...he doesn't have to dribble just cut and dunk and get in the passing lanes...perfect.

Bringing in Jalen and Francis..well, we all know why that happened, regardless of you all wanted to lay blame in any direction, had we not had LB and we not been losing games are a record pace, neither of those moves would have been made (the term dillusional and the swipe at UCLA as a school of higher education wouldn't even be out there, and why is the UCLA swipe not considered classless?)

Every alleged great GM has tons of mistakes on their resume over the same period of time we have been bashing isiah's failures...so, making a mistake along the way of the above outlined plan is understandable...the there is and has always been a plan.

marbury (starphuck to sell tickets)/nate (draft)
Crawford (chitown pilfering)/that kid we drafted that plays defense
JJ2/Qrich/Balkman(reezy)
Frye/Lee
Curry/JJ1

10 deep, all part of the plan.

Like I've said before...some people/fans will NEVER forgive Isiah for whatever he has "done".

I see the team that Isiah assembled...the only thing that made last year seem like it was part of the plan was the usage of the rooks and the reezy dunks.

Other than that, it's a wasted year and all parties attached are to blame.

But we still have the players, so I'm not going to add an extra year to my expectations (as some add extra years to the failure tally).

Look at the team, try not to use last year's stats and performance...we are well on our way and the plan is still in place.

Young and Athletic...movement on offense...playoff cornerstone of Curry/Crawford...strong young athletic supporting cast (lee, nate, frye, balkman)

JMHO.

Posted by Silverfuel:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Silverfeul, I now have a question for you. Has it come to the point that you are praying that Isiah just never makes a trade again b/c you know it will be another F' up?

Its close but, I'm giving him the one last chance before I turn into nyk4ever. My point is this: What if he gets the team to play the way we want them too? What if everything goes right for the Knicks till December or Jan? Will you change your mind? Stranger stuff has happened so its possible that the Knicks can be all that they can be.

Posted by Silverfuel:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Silverfeul, I now have a question for you. Has it come to the point that you are praying that Isiah just never makes a trade again b/c you know it will be another F' up?

Its close but, I'm giving him the one last chance before I turn into nyk4ever. My point is this: What if he gets the team to play the way we want them too? What if everything goes right for the Knicks till December or Jan? Will you change your mind? Stranger stuff has happened so its possible that the Knicks can be all that they can be.

It's not the wins or losses. I want to see hard ars play on both ends especially defense. I am tired of the announcers saying that the Knicks put defense on the backburner. It's embarrassing to be associated with teams like that. We're the Knicks.

I don't want to see excuses either. What if we start 3-10? Guys are adjusting and we don't have Jared. Well guess what, guys will have to adjust more then, when Jared comes back. It's not an excuse to be playing like this. We can be a 45 win team without Jared.

And in basketball terms, this is what scares me. Defensively, we are solid at 1 single position. ONE. And that is small foward, with Q, Jefferies and Balkman. Around that though, it's real ugly. Frye and Curry are both poor help defenders and aren't shotblockers. Not the greatest of one on one defenders either. Marbury and Francis are poor defenders too. How much disaster does that spell right there? What's worse is that Isiah said himself: "Shotblocking is overrated." How could he say that? Having a big shotblocker means the world, and if you mix that in with guys making the commitment, it's HUGE!

I am very very confident in our second unit and I think they can run with anyone, however, it can only take you so far with such a challenged starting lineup.