[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Big Ben HATED playing for Flip
Author Thread
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  7:50 AM
By Chris Sheridan
ESPN Insider
Archive

DEERFIELD, Ill. -- First and foremost, it was the money that brought Ben Wallace to the Chicago Bulls. They were offering a starting salary of $16 million -- more than $4 million more than what the Detroit Pistons were offering -- and the bottom line, we all know, is that money talks.


But there was another factor, too, one that Wallace had kept pent up until now, that made his decision an easier one.



Carlos Osorio/AP Photo
A lot of fingers pointed at Flip at the end of the season.
He did not like coach Flip Saunders, not one bit. And the fury he felt toward his former coach after sitting out the final 12 minutes of Detroit's final playoff game last season stuck with him through June and into July -- a month that began with Bulls general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles ringing his doorbell on the afternoon of the July 1, coming into his home and making a three-hour pitch to Wallace and his then-pregnant wife, Chanda.


A considerable amount of trepidation was rattling around inside Paxson's head that afternoon when he first walked in the door, but the feeling he exited with three hours later was somewhat hopeful. "I didn't know how realistic it was. I think all of us thought it would be very difficult to get Ben out of Detroit, though we saw there might be a crack in the door just from reading stuff," Paxson said.


There had been an episode in Orlando late in the season when Wallace refused to re-enter a game, and then there was Game 6 in Miami and the quotes from Wallace afterward that indicated all was not quite so hunky-dory over on the other side of Lake Michigan.


"The bottom line is we had the money, and we sold him on Scott being a no-nonsense guy who comes to work every day. We didn't have an agenda other than that, but we thought maybe there was a part of Ben that said maybe it's time to change teams one last time and see if I can't do something great somewhere else. We saw there was something [in Detroit] that he wasn't as thrilled about as he had been in the past, but I honestly didn't think we had much of a shot," Paxson told Insider from inside the second-floor office he inherited from predecessor Jerry Krause overlooking the court at the Bulls' suburban practice facility.


What the Bulls did have was a bevy of cap space, enabling them to offer Wallace much, much more than the Pistons were willing to pay. The starting salary of $16 million should end up being the most money Wallace ever makes in an NBA season, as his contract decreases to $15.5 million next season, $14.5 million in 2008-09 and $14 million in '09-10. Still, it all added up to $60 million, which was $8 million higher in total dollars than the Pistons indicated they were willing to go.


In a league in which making money is the bottom line, the decision started to become more and more of a no-brainer for Wallace the more he discussed it -- even though he was the No. 1 fan favorite in Detroit, a player whose name was called last in pregame introductions, a player who embodied the work ethic that the Pistons had always maintained was one of the main keys to their success, a player who might have even had his number retired if he had finished his career in Motown.


"I weighed all the pros and cons. One thing that really made me comfortable about coming here wasn't anything Pax or Scott did, it was that those guys I played with in Detroit, great guys, great teammates and great friends, it was like we were all in there negotiating together," Wallace said. "My agent talked to Pax, then came back and talked to me. And after we finished talking I hung up the phone and called Chauncey, ran the scenario by him, called Rip, Rasheed, Lindsey, Tayshaun, those guys. So it wasn't like I was making the decision on my own. I talked to those guys, and they all told me we would love to be selfish and tell you we need you to come back so we can make this run again, but they said this seems like an ideal situation with a team that reminded them of us when we won the championship. They said, 'It sounds like the best situation for you, and we can't blame you if you take it,'" Wallace said.



Duane Burleson/AP Photo
Leaving the Pistons was still a hard decision for Big Ben.So Wallace took it, putting his six years in Detroit -- along with a coach he had no use for -- in his rearview mirror.


He had been stewing over his benching in Game 6 in Miami, and he skipped his exit interview with Saunders back in Auburn Hills, opting instead to speak only with team president Joe Dumars.


"At that point in time, the frustration was still sitting heavy on me, so there wasn't no need for me to have a conversation with Flip at all," Wallace recalled. "I thought the worst thing he can do to a player who's been there and been in the fight with you all season was to put me on that bench and force me to watch that whole fourth quarter and not have an opportunity to get in there and see the action. That was the toughest 12 minutes I ever had to play -- or ever had to watch. It sticks with me, it's still with me."


I interviewed Wallace that night in Miami after Game 6, concluding he was more apt to leave than stay after hearing him say: "Everyone knows where my heart is. It's in my chest." Wallace hinted at how livid he was over being benched for the fourth quarter, but held his tongue for the most part and never ripped Saunders by name.


Fast-forward to this past Wednesday evening following the Bulls' nightcap of two-a-day practices, and Wallace finally decided to open up to ESPN.com.


Did he like playing for Flip?


"No. I just didn't like the way we handled things," Wallace said. "We got away from our bread and butter, and that's on the defensive end. I hear him saying now that I'm gone he can open up his playbook. I laugh at it. Everyone's looking for something, and for him to say that, he's fishing for getting a reaction out of me. It's funny to me, real comical. I never thought you could win when you've got five guys on the floor looking for the ball and no one out there doing the little things. So that's on him. If he feels like that, go ahead."


Wallace mentioned Jim Lynam, Doc Rivers, Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown as the favorite coaches he has played for, going on to say Skiles reminds him of Brown because he does not play favorites and sees himself as a teacher at both ends of the floor.


Saunders did not make the list.


"I have no relationship with him. He's coach and I'm a player, and that's as far as it went. If you say your door is always open and we can always talk about things and you'll be willing to listen, and when I come to him to talk about something that's bothering me that I think is hurting the team, if you don't do anything to change it, then that's the last time I need to talk to you."


That time came early in the season when the Pistons were reeling off wins and beginning to set their sights on making a run at 70 victories, a number they'd eventually fall six wins short of.


"We weren't playing as hard as we could on defense. We had to grind it out when we should have been up and comfortable, giving other guys a chance to get some reps. But for the most part we had to fight. I just told him the way we were playing defense then, we didn't have a whole lot of defensive principles. We were just out there playing on natural ability, and we needed to put some type of system in place we were going to come out every night and use, instead of trying to feel our way through it," Wallace said. "He said: 'OK, I understand what you said.' But he never changed."


"Carlisle was cool. He's one of those coaches who said his door was open and you went to talk to him, if he didn't believe in what you said, he'd tell you and say, 'I'm not going to do it that way, it won't work.' You can't do nothing but respect that," Wallace said. "And coach Brown wasn't afraid to go out there and run a play for you, and if you did well on it he was going to keep coming to you."


Saunders also spoke to Insider, taking issue with Wallace's recollection of their meeting.

"We had opened 8-0 and we were just back after losing in Utah. We talked more about what he was doing offensively," Saunders said. "As far as Game 6, I'm probably as frustrated as him; we weren't scoring, and I was trying to get some offensive firepower."

Saunders did not run many plays for Wallace, and his scoring average sank from 9.7 points in his final season under Brown to 7.2 in his lone season under Saunders. Wallace did pick up his fourth Defensive Player of the Year award, but his rebounding average (11.3) dropped for the third consecutive season, and his blocked shot average (2.21) fell for the fourth straight year. Numbers such as those have caused many to say the Bulls overpaid for a 32-year-old center already on the decline, but while Paxson will allow that the Bulls did overspend (because they had to), he feels the perception that Wallace is in decline will inspire his big free-agent pickup.


Chicago is coming off its second straight first-round ouster in the playoffs, but last season was a throwaway year after the Bulls decided to trade Eddy Curry (and Antonio Davis) at the start of training camp, sacrificing their only low-post scoring threats along with a respected veteran whose leadership capabilities were not replaced. By bringing in Wallace and P.J. Brown, two players whose leadership comes from setting an example through their practice habits and game efforts, some of those missing elements have been replenished.


When the Bulls open the season Halloween night in Miami, Wallace will be back at the same locker where he sat so wounded and angry in June after what turned out to be his final game in a Detroit uniform. But he'll be wearing Bulls colors this time, red and black, and he'll be starting a new chapter in a career that has taken him from being an undrafted nobody to possibly becoming the biggest impact free agent since Steve Nash left Dallas for Phoenix.


And when the final 12 minutes roll around, Wallace hopes Saunders is watching somewhere on TV, taking note that Wallace will be spending this fourth quarter on the floor instead of the bench.


"From here on out, I'm going to remember that 12 minutes on that bench," he said. "I had been there through thick and thin with those guys, and I hated to watch my teammates out there put up a fight and there was nothing I could do to help them. It was like the big brother scenario, seeing someone pick on your little brother or sister and you can't do nothing about it.


"It was a helpless feeling, man. Things were going the way they were going, and there was nothing I could do to change it."


So Wallace decided to change what he could.


Mostly it was about the money. But it was also about Saunders.


And that, folks, is why Wallace is a Bull.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
AUTOADVERT
Panos
Posts: 30591
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/6/2004
Member: #520
10/13/2006  8:26 AM
I'll tell you what, it's a nice time to be a Bulls fan.
They got a great young, hard-nosed team.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  8:56 AM
its amazing what patience can do... 6 years of waiting and they have a win now team with as good a young core as any in the NBA. Barring stupidity they can have a loooong run a title.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  8:57 AM
they were going to be good, but that Curry trade getting them Ty Thomas is just nuts. Imagine if they do get Greg Oden or Noah for that matter
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MS
Posts: 27064
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/28/2004
Member: #724
10/13/2006  9:40 AM
Any mention of those two players is ****ing stupid there is no way we finish that poorly, if we do everyone should give up on the franchise, Portland is going to be the worst team in the nba, followed by atlanta, we should be better than toronto, memphis with their injuries, and a host of other teams if we dedicate
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  9:51 AM
your right, kinda like last year when we had a good draft class, a HOF coach, an established bigman... what could go wrong?

We are the same team now run and coached by Isiah Thomas. Lets all hope history doesnt repeat itself
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
10/13/2006  9:55 AM
what does Big Ben have to do with the way Larry Brown behaved in NY? this is old news anyway. ben liked brown, billups liked brown, but sheed, billups, hamilton, prince and mcdyess all praised the new offense and the new freedom and were saying how great things were when they had the best record in the league.

the Bulls aren't winning any title unless they make substantial changes, big ben is old.
¿ △ ?
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  10:00 AM
its interesting when you look at the kind of players that like LB (IVerson, Billups, Sheed, Ben, etc) and the ones that hated him (Tim Thomas, MArbury, Francis, etc)

eh.. I'm probably just imagining things consumed by my Larry love
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheGame
Posts: 26652
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/15/2006
Member: #1154
USA
10/13/2006  10:32 AM
I don't think anyone likes Brown at first. You listed players such as Iverson, Billups, Sheed, Ben, etc. as players that supposed like him NOW, but I know Iverson did not like him and LB tried to trade Billups so I know they must have had problems too. It is because the players ultimately became successful under LB that the players changed their minds about him. The problem he had here is that he started focusing more on being a GM instead of being a coach and the team lost games because of it. I think if LB had focused on coaching and accepting the players that he had instead of focusing on trying to get new players, he could have had more success last year and IT could have gotten him more of the defensive-minded players that he wanted for this year. He did not do that and lost the trust and respect of the team.
Trust the Process
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  11:03 AM
there is no doubt that Brown is a pain in the ass for everyone, players, GM, owner, towel boys, etc

But there is also no doubt that Browns teams have historically played hard and won NBA basketball games. Once guys realize that LB isnt going away and they will have to adjust their games wins start to come.

There is also no doubt that some pretty high caliber NBA credits Brown for getting them to play at a level no other coach has.

There is also no doubt that LB is NOT for every player, that he's going to rub guys the wrong way, and you better have some thick skinned guys because they are going to get an earfull.

Since MSG/Isiah has a history of firing coachs, since in MSG land its NEVER the players fault, our roster quit on him, and it worked. He got fired, the kids have their way and we on route to the most exciting 38 wins in Knick history.

Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
Posts: 55076
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 2/24/2002
Member: #215
USA
10/13/2006  11:08 AM
you know..I'm trying to stay positive but in the back of my mind I keep thinking Marbury/Francis for the next 3yrs Marbury/Francis, 36mm per,Marbury/Francis, until I start getting a sharp pain in temple

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-13-2006 11:10 AM]
Allanfan20
Posts: 35947
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #542
USA
10/13/2006  11:12 AM
Posted by crzymdups:

what does Big Ben have to do with the way Larry Brown behaved in NY? this is old news anyway. ben liked brown, billups liked brown, but sheed, billups, hamilton, prince and mcdyess all praised the new offense and the new freedom and were saying how great things were when they had the best record in the league.

the Bulls aren't winning any title unless they make substantial changes, big ben is old.

Maybe, but LeBron gave them a hell of a run for their money in the playoffs last year and then they got embarrassed by Miami in the ECFs. When LB was there, everything was controlled, but the defense couldn't be penetrated. And now that Flip was there, it was clear to me that defense was not nearly as emphasized. Just b/c you have the best record in the league doesn't make you the best team as Miami showed once again.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  11:22 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

you know..I'm trying to stay positive but in the back of my mind I keep thinking Marbury/Francis for the next 3yrs Marbury/Francis, 36mm per,Marbury/Francis, until I start getting a sharp pain in temple

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-13-2006 11:10 AM]
to be honest I could live with another 3 years of sucking if we had a GM with a plan. Would rather suck with a team I could root for that the Franbury's of the league

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

10/13/2006  11:25 AM
Posted by fishmike:

there is no doubt that Brown is a pain in the ass for everyone, players, GM, owner, towel boys, etc

But there is also no doubt that Browns teams have historically played hard and won NBA basketball games. Once guys realize that LB isnt going away and they will have to adjust their games wins start to come.

There is also no doubt that some pretty high caliber NBA credits Brown for getting them to play at a level no other coach has.

There is also no doubt that LB is NOT for every player, that he's going to rub guys the wrong way, and you better have some thick skinned guys because they are going to get an earfull.

Since MSG/Isiah has a history of firing coachs, since in MSG land its NEVER the players fault, our roster quit on him, and it worked. He got fired, the kids have their way and we on route to the most exciting 38 wins in Knick history.

Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.


At this point I just accept that three is a crowd and there is no way that the indomitable egos of Isiah, Marbury and Brown could have ever coexisted, and since Isiah and Marbury are married Brown had to go. It was simply a bad hire from the get-go (not because Brown is a bad guy, but because Isiah, Marbury and Dolan weren't prepared to support him), pure StarPhuching all the way, just another mindless acquisition designed to entice fans with sizzle where there was no steak to offer.

Brown was different from this team, he was the odd man out. He's the guy you hire when you want to create a team in his hardworking and perfectionism image, but the wrong guy when you want to give guys a lot of freedom and entitlements. This team has been created in isiah's image, which is evidenced in lots of gambling, churning, emotional outbursts, "wild arguments", lawsuits, and power mongering.

Brown is not so far removed from some of those elements, but there's only room on a team for so many fiefdoms and warlords, and this team is all isiah's.
nyk4ever
Posts: 41010
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 1/12/2005
Member: #848
USA
10/13/2006  11:29 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:

you know..I'm trying to stay positive but in the back of my mind I keep thinking Marbury/Francis for the next 3yrs Marbury/Francis, 36mm per,Marbury/Francis, until I start getting a sharp pain in temple

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-13-2006 11:10 AM]

It sucks man, it really does. I'm so sick of rooting for the players that keep being brought onto the Knicks, I'm sick of the type of player that Isiah Thomas targets, this really is a tired act that is going on inside MSG.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
Posts: 55076
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 2/24/2002
Member: #215
USA
10/13/2006  11:30 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by gunsnewing:

you know..I'm trying to stay positive but in the back of my mind I keep thinking Marbury/Francis for the next 3yrs Marbury/Francis, 36mm per,Marbury/Francis, until I start getting a sharp pain in temple

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 10-13-2006 11:10 AM]
to be honest I could live with another 3 years of sucking if we had a GM with a plan. Would rather suck with a team I could root for that the Franbury's of the league


careful not sucking but mediocrity. You don't want to get some people all riled up about 38wins
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
10/13/2006  11:38 AM
Posted by fishmike:

there is no doubt that Brown is a pain in the ass for everyone, players, GM, owner, towel boys, etc

But there is also no doubt that Browns teams have historically played hard and won NBA basketball games. Once guys realize that LB isnt going away and they will have to adjust their games wins start to come.

There is also no doubt that some pretty high caliber NBA credits Brown for getting them to play at a level no other coach has.

There is also no doubt that LB is NOT for every player, that he's going to rub guys the wrong way, and you better have some thick skinned guys because they are going to get an earfull.

Since MSG/Isiah has a history of firing coachs, since in MSG land its NEVER the players fault, our roster quit on him, and it worked. He got fired, the kids have their way and we on route to the most exciting 38 wins in Knick history.

Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.

From all teachers I had in the School and College I hated a couple.
And looking back those hated was the best and they made the biggest contribution to me like a person and like a student.
It's a hard work physically and mentally to improve you talent and you personality.
It is always convenient to be lazy, make excuses, and finally let you life and carrier go into drain.
How many players in NBA and beyond destroyed their carrier and life by not getting or wasting an opportunity to stick with the Couch like LB? And players who were troubled, underachieving who stick with him achieved great things and most important became better people.
I know everybody angry with LB with what happened last season but I already see the results of his touch on some players and organization. To start improving you need to understand how much you suck first.








"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
gunsnewing
Posts: 55076
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 2/24/2002
Member: #215
USA
10/13/2006  11:54 AM
but I already see the results of his touch on some players and organization. To start improving you need to understand how much you suck first.
that is a great point! we should get more D & effort based on that alone. but you can only go so fsr with Marbury as your best player

fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/13/2006  11:57 AM
To start improving you need to understand how much you suck first.
man thats good... our "stars" have ZERO idea why they dont win NBA games.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
wsdm
Posts: 20803
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/16/2006
Member: #1167

10/13/2006  12:47 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

what does Big Ben have to do with the way Larry Brown behaved in NY? this is old news anyway.
I agree. I'm going to give the response Bippity gives when something bad is said about Brown: Brown's gone and everyone needs to move on!
www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
Big Ben HATED playing for Flip

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy