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Isiah coaching Knicks + Jared Jefferies =+20 wins?
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BRIGGS
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10/1/2006  9:17 AM
Is that what people are counting on? It's pretty tough to have that big of a swing without adding an impact type player. It RARELY happens. Usually when you fall that low, it takes 3-4 years to get out of the hole. So betting on 42+ wins is betting against heavy odds.
RIP Crushalot😞
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oohah
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10/1/2006  10:14 AM
I think it is more like this BRIGGS:

If IT just coaches the team decently, they should get the 38 wins they should have gotten last year.

If the players improve, Jeffries represents, Balkmans is good, and Isiah coaches well, the Knicks could win 20 more than last year.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
NJK
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10/1/2006  10:26 AM
I agree with oohah. Last year's record was not indicutive of how this team really should be. there were too many distractions going on with Larry Brown, the players & management combined. 40 some odd different starting line-ups; players pouting, and under achieving/ lack of understanding; management making lots of moves bringing in more players making chemistry difficult.

If anything the year before our 23-59 record, this team should have gotten closer to 40-44 wins. It's still going to take a "little" time for them to jell; but one season has been lost where we could have been trying to improve from this team that "should" have won around 40 last season.

If they do win 40-44 this year; it will be looked upon as a great improvement by the media likes; but to me that's just hyped; because this team should have been on the road to recovery without the fiasco of last season to set them back.

So it's more than Jared Jeffries....it's the improvement of our sophmores, or new blooded rookies, and some veteran's with something to prove.

Everyone involved will be better off with a normal rotation through the whole season.
Somebody Help my Knicks!!!
TheGame
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10/1/2006  10:28 AM
A 20+ win improvement is a huge swing, but since the team underachieved last year, I think it is very possible.
Trust the Process
JesseDark
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10/1/2006  10:41 AM
I think the baseline starting point is 33 wins, the number of wins the previous season. Having coaching trying to win and not prove a point will make a difference. The 3 rookies now have a year of experience and some of the other vets having something to prove
Put me down for 42 wins.
Bring back dee-fense
BRIGGS
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10/1/2006  10:56 AM
Posted by NJK:

I agree with oohah. Last year's record was not indicutive of how this team really should be. there were too many distractions going on with Larry Brown, the players & management combined. 40 some odd different starting line-ups; players pouting, and under achieving/ lack of understanding; management making lots of moves bringing in more players making chemistry difficult.

If anything the year before our 23-59 record, this team should have gotten closer to 40-44 wins. It's still going to take a "little" time for them to jell; but one season has been lost where we could have been trying to improve from this team that "should" have won around 40 last season.

If they do win 40-44 this year; it will be looked upon as a great improvement by the media likes; but to me that's just hyped; because this team should have been on the road to recovery without the fiasco of last season to set them back.

So it's more than Jared Jeffries....it's the improvement of our sophmores, or new blooded rookies, and some veteran's with something to prove.

Everyone involved will be better off with a normal rotation through the whole season.

I think it's baloney. I think there is a fair amount of people who have gone overboard with LB. I will be the first to agree that at times he played guys either to little or to long[at times] but I never sensed even 1 minute where he was trying to throw a game. I would take the Mets and Yankees[especially the Yankees} as examples. Both teams lost key rotation players but were still able to win with what they had--using multiple line-up changes and no set rotation anywhere pitching or every day guys. But when they put someone in, they STEPPED up. We have a 125mm+ payroll, we have players on the bench other teams can afford[although this may lead to poor chemistry?]but nonetheless we have them. Anyone can STEP up, the problem is we were just bad. OUR personell was not condusive to defense/shot blocking, we werent very fast, smart, we didnt play tough--forget the coach--this team was a band of misfits gathered of of losing teams---anyone want to counter that? We have a lot of guys who are INCONSISTENT their whole careers or that have physical flaw. A lot of 1-1 guys me first our big moves last year were to bring in an underacheiving C and PAY a HUGE price for him and also spend 30mm on a player who gave nothing. So we go out and spend another 30mm on a player who hasnt EARNED 30mm and bypass BETTER players in the draft for guys who will be questionable guys for quite some time IMHO.
IF we were in the west, we'd be done, finsished caput before game 1. As is, while the east did not improve--perhaps even taking a step back--I dont see where we IMPROVED enough to materially change things. I do think we win game 1 and I do think we dont start 2-7 for the first time in several years, but I dont see anything more than 35 wins top out.
Is that a success with multiple years of paying all of this money? No way, any other industry everyone would be out.
You are what your record is. LB is an excuse--look hard at what the players did--they didnt play hard smart and to many me first gu7ys--thats why we won 23 games.
RIP Crushalot😞
oohah
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10/1/2006  11:18 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by NJK:

I agree with oohah. Last year's record was not indicutive of how this team really should be. there were too many distractions going on with Larry Brown, the players & management combined. 40 some odd different starting line-ups; players pouting, and under achieving/ lack of understanding; management making lots of moves bringing in more players making chemistry difficult.

If anything the year before our 23-59 record, this team should have gotten closer to 40-44 wins. It's still going to take a "little" time for them to jell; but one season has been lost where we could have been trying to improve from this team that "should" have won around 40 last season.

If they do win 40-44 this year; it will be looked upon as a great improvement by the media likes; but to me that's just hyped; because this team should have been on the road to recovery without the fiasco of last season to set them back.

So it's more than Jared Jeffries....it's the improvement of our sophmores, or new blooded rookies, and some veteran's with something to prove.

Everyone involved will be better off with a normal rotation through the whole season.

I think it's baloney. I think there is a fair amount of people who have gone overboard with LB. I will be the first to agree that at times he played guys either to little or to long[at times] but I never sensed even 1 minute where he was trying to throw a game. I would take the Mets and Yankees[especially the Yankees} as examples. Both teams lost key rotation players but were still able to win with what they had--using multiple line-up changes and no set rotation anywhere pitching or every day guys. But when they put someone in, they STEPPED up. We have a 125mm+ payroll, we have players on the bench other teams can afford[although this may lead to poor chemistry?]but nonetheless we have them. Anyone can STEP up, the problem is we were just bad. OUR personell was not condusive to defense/shot blocking, we werent very fast, smart, we didnt play tough--forget the coach--this team was a band of misfits gathered of of losing teams---anyone want to counter that? We have a lot of guys who are INCONSISTENT their whole careers or that have physical flaw. A lot of 1-1 guys me first our big moves last year were to bring in an underacheiving C and PAY a HUGE price for him and also spend 30mm on a player who gave nothing. So we go out and spend another 30mm on a player who hasnt EARNED 30mm and bypass BETTER players in the draft for guys who will be questionable guys for quite some time IMHO.
IF we were in the west, we'd be done, finsished caput before game 1. As is, while the east did not improve--perhaps even taking a step back--I dont see where we IMPROVED enough to materially change things. I do think we win game 1 and I do think we dont start 2-7 for the first time in several years, but I dont see anything more than 35 wins top out.
Is that a success with multiple years of paying all of this money? No way, any other industry everyone would be out.
You are what your record is. LB is an excuse--look hard at what the players did--they didnt play hard smart and to many me first gu7ys--thats why we won 23 games.

Okay Briggs, that's an understandable opinion. I have a question: What qualifies as a success for this season?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Vmart
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10/1/2006  11:42 AM
Right now its easier to see doom for the Knicks than not. Briggs you are giving the obvious as usual. Like I said its very easy to say the Knicks are going to be crappy rather than decent because they haven't given anything other than crappy performances in the past. I personally think the Knicks have a lot of talent and its up to the players to make good on it. Unless they do that and only the season will tell. Its safer bet to go with the Knicks are going to be down right aweful.
SugarRayRichardson
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10/1/2006  11:54 AM
Brigs I was backing LB early in the season but his rotations said I dont care about winning at all and in fact I want to lose. I especially saw that with Trevor Ariza minutes. Qrich seemd to play more thw rose he played. Ditto Mo Taylor.
1) He would play Ariza huge minutes when he played horribly but the minute he hit 2-3 shots in a row he would be benched. He did the same thing with Q rich. As long as they werent scoring they played large minutes. Once they got hot he yanked them. It was like he wanted to play them till they hit a shot then pull them off like when you play at home and dont leave the court till you make your last shot.
2) He would yank Curry after 5 minutes when he was playing great/ totally hot and not return him to the game for 20 minutes or more of real time minutes. He would be all cooled off. Curry wasnt tired and it doesnt take but 1-2 minutes real time to catch your breath anyway. Curry went to the ugly long warmups trying to stay warm
3) Guys like Nate, Qwoods and Lee would go from DNP to starters to great games to DNP again in a day or 2.
4) He even did it to Butler. Butler would be very productive one night then sit on the bench all the next game while Jerome James came in.
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
PresIke
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10/1/2006  12:00 PM
I agree with a lot of your points, BRIGGS, but I'm not so sure the Larry Brown thing was just about rotations. It was about chemistry and morale, which probably had a significantly detrimental effect on the team. However, the fact that the players did not respond well is a dangerous sign, but I do think it is a possiblity for the Knicks to win 42 games, as well as be just as awful as last year.

This team is epitome of an enigma.

[Edited by - PresIke on 10-01-2006 12:00 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
crzymdups
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10/1/2006  12:26 PM
Jefferies will help. But the keys to this team are Frye and Curry. Curry being in shape and ready to go from day one is the same as adding an impact player. Frye being used correctly from day one is the same as adding an impact player. Marbury being allowed to run screen and rolls every game is the same as adding an impact player. The total wildcard is Francis - a healthy, focused Francis is an impact player as well. I don't know if he'll work here, I still doubt it, but I guess we'll see.

Larry Brown did the single worst coaching job I have ever seen last year. It's mind blowing that people still look at last season and think the players are somehow responsible or that the season should be a judgement on them, yet we have to look to Larry's "proven track record." Brown did the worst coaching job ever last season and it wasn't stupidity, it was willful arrogance.

Isiah can easily add 20 wins to that total, and most of the losses will be much more competitive, too.
¿ △ ?
rvhoss
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10/1/2006  2:29 PM
the knicks will double last season's win total.
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Nalod
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10/1/2006  2:39 PM
I think Larry shoulders too much blame.

There were a host of trades and the ending rotation of who was our small forward and starting power forward. JJ was at the fat farm and eddy had a host of small injuries.

No doubt that larrys linups were a bit crazy, but he gave the youth good minutes and that will help this season.

IN a perfect world it would have been better to have compromised with larry chlling out, dolan not being an idiot, and Isiah not making some deals no matter whose idea it was. And of course Marbury's diva act always not helpful.

Regardless at who is at the helm one could see a set lineup rotation coming together. Mo T being waived if anyting gives him an opportunity to play elsewhere, and demonstrates we have some assembalance of order in the house.

you'll see Eddy, Channing, Jarred, Starbury and CrawCis as teh five with DLee, FranFord, JJ, malik and Qrich off the bench.

where is Qdog by the way?
BRIGGS
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10/1/2006  4:05 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by BRIGGS:

[quote]Posted by NJK:

I agree with oohah. Last year's record was not indicutive of how this team really should be. there were too many distractions going on with Larry Brown, the players & management combined. 40 some odd different starting line-ups; players pouting, and under achieving/ lack of understanding; management making lots of moves bringing in more players making chemistry difficult.

If anything the year before our 23-59 record, this team should have gotten closer to 40-44 wins. It's still going to take a "little" time for them to jell; but one season has been lost where we could have been trying to improve from this team that "should" have won around 40 last season.

If they do win 40-44 this year; it will be looked upon as a great improvement by the media likes; but to me that's just hyped; because this team should have been on the road to recovery without the fiasco of last season to set them back.

So it's more than Jared Jeffries....it's the improvement of our sophmores, or new blooded rookies, and some veteran's with something to prove.

Everyone involved will be better off with a normal rotation through the whole season.

I think it's baloney. I think there is a fair amount of people who have gone overboard with LB. I will be the first to agree that at times he played guys either to little or to long[at times] but I never sensed even 1 minute where he was trying to throw a game. I would take the Mets and Yankees[especially the Yankees} as examples. Both teams lost key rotation players but were still able to win with what they had--using multiple line-up changes and no set rotation anywhere pitching or every day guys. But when they put someone in, they STEPPED up. We have a 125mm+ payroll, we have players on the bench other teams can afford[although this may lead to poor chemistry?]but nonetheless we have them. Anyone can STEP up, the problem is we were just bad. OUR personell was not condusive to defense/shot blocking, we werent very fast, smart, we didnt play tough--forget the coach--this team was a band of misfits gathered of of losing teams---anyone want to counter that? We have a lot of guys who are INCONSISTENT their whole careers or that have physical flaw. A lot of 1-1 guys me first our big moves last year were to bring in an underacheiving C and PAY a HUGE price for him and also spend 30mm on a player who gave nothing. So we go out and spend another 30mm on a player who hasnt EARNED 30mm and bypass BETTER players in the draft for guys who will be questionable guys for quite some time IMHO.
IF we were in the west, we'd be done, finsished caput before game 1. As is, while the east did not improve--perhaps even taking a step back--I dont see where we IMPROVED enough to materially change things. I do think we win game 1 and I do think we dont start 2-7 for the first time in several years, but I dont see anything more than 35 wins top out.
Is that a success with multiple years of paying all of this money? No way, any other industry everyone would be out.
You are what your record is. LB is an excuse--look hard at what the players did--they didnt play hard smart and to many me first gu7ys--thats why we won 23 games.

Okay Briggs, that's an understandable opinion. I have a question: What qualifies as a success for this season?

oohah


With this payroll, only 45 wins and some reasonmable success in the playoffs is acceptable. You make your bed, you lay in it.
RIP Crushalot😞
wsdm
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10/1/2006  4:46 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by oohah:
Posted by BRIGGS:

[quote]Posted by NJK:

I agree with oohah. Last year's record was not indicutive of how this team really should be. there were too many distractions going on with Larry Brown, the players & management combined. 40 some odd different starting line-ups; players pouting, and under achieving/ lack of understanding; management making lots of moves bringing in more players making chemistry difficult.

If anything the year before our 23-59 record, this team should have gotten closer to 40-44 wins. It's still going to take a "little" time for them to jell; but one season has been lost where we could have been trying to improve from this team that "should" have won around 40 last season.

If they do win 40-44 this year; it will be looked upon as a great improvement by the media likes; but to me that's just hyped; because this team should have been on the road to recovery without the fiasco of last season to set them back.

So it's more than Jared Jeffries....it's the improvement of our sophmores, or new blooded rookies, and some veteran's with something to prove.

Everyone involved will be better off with a normal rotation through the whole season.

I think it's baloney. I think there is a fair amount of people who have gone overboard with LB. I will be the first to agree that at times he played guys either to little or to long[at times] but I never sensed even 1 minute where he was trying to throw a game. I would take the Mets and Yankees[especially the Yankees} as examples. Both teams lost key rotation players but were still able to win with what they had--using multiple line-up changes and no set rotation anywhere pitching or every day guys. But when they put someone in, they STEPPED up. We have a 125mm+ payroll, we have players on the bench other teams can afford[although this may lead to poor chemistry?]but nonetheless we have them. Anyone can STEP up, the problem is we were just bad. OUR personell was not condusive to defense/shot blocking, we werent very fast, smart, we didnt play tough--forget the coach--this team was a band of misfits gathered of of losing teams---anyone want to counter that? We have a lot of guys who are INCONSISTENT their whole careers or that have physical flaw. A lot of 1-1 guys me first our big moves last year were to bring in an underacheiving C and PAY a HUGE price for him and also spend 30mm on a player who gave nothing. So we go out and spend another 30mm on a player who hasnt EARNED 30mm and bypass BETTER players in the draft for guys who will be questionable guys for quite some time IMHO.
IF we were in the west, we'd be done, finsished caput before game 1. As is, while the east did not improve--perhaps even taking a step back--I dont see where we IMPROVED enough to materially change things. I do think we win game 1 and I do think we dont start 2-7 for the first time in several years, but I dont see anything more than 35 wins top out.
Is that a success with multiple years of paying all of this money? No way, any other industry everyone would be out.
You are what your record is. LB is an excuse--look hard at what the players did--they didnt play hard smart and to many me first gu7ys--thats why we won 23 games.

Okay Briggs, that's an understandable opinion. I have a question: What qualifies as a success for this season?

oohah


With this payroll, only 45 wins and some reasonmable success in the playoffs is acceptable. You make your bed, you lay in it.
I understand your point but I can appreciate PROGRESS. I'd say 40 or 41 wins would be acceptable for Isiah as a GM. I'd say at least 36 would be acceptable for Isiah as a coach, as it would indicate huge improvement from Brown's and some improvement from Wilkens's win totals. When I say acceptable, I mean enough progress that I wouldn't give Isiah a failing grade for the season--not so much in the sense that I'm optimistic about the organization. That would require new ownership.

www.selltheknicks.com----No more DOLANOMICS!
nixluva
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10/1/2006  4:55 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Okay Briggs, that's an understandable opinion. I have a question: What qualifies as a success for this season?

oohah


With this payroll, only 45 wins and some reasonmable success in the playoffs is acceptable. You make your bed, you lay in it.

PAYROLL has NOTHING to do with it. If you think this team is capable of playing as a unit well enough to win 45 games, then fine. Just don't try to factor in the payroll, which is artificially inflated with players who aren't even on the TEAM. It's not like every player we have is making big bucks.

In any event, this team in my opinion should be able to win between 41-45 games based on a few things:

1. The fact that our better young players will be getting more minutes. They all had much better production per minute than their Vet counterparts on the team.

2. No more Mo, Malik & AD to start games and no more QRich as well. He was brutal in the SL. It will make a TON of difference with Steph, Francis, Jared, Frye and Curry out there and Jamal, Lee, Nate etc.

3. More chemistry this year. On defense we needed as much consistency as possible last year and I think we'll get that this year and it will help. The many blowouts tended to make this team seem like it never played D, when actually that's not the case. Our D brokedown a lot due to a lack of chemistry and trust on defense.

4. An offense and defense that better match our roster. It's clear that our team needed to play a different way than we did last year. When we played faster this team seemed to be more comfortable and I suspect that we'll see a better pace than last year. I'm not expecting run and gun all game, but certainly a more uptempo style.
BRIGGS
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10/1/2006  5:13 PM
--->PAYROLL has NOTHING to do with it

Sure it does, it has everything to do with it. It's called management. When you are given an open checkbook to the tune of doubling most other teams payrolls and you produce putrid teams, the buck stops here. Everyone blames LB???? but no one says how much money Isiah has spent on coaches alone. He made the decision to hire LB with this group--it's HIS management call. EVERYONE knew LB was a shaky propositiuon with his health and history and they bought it anyway, like they bought the Jerome James's of the world. Most people on this forum are intelligent and don't listen to $pin jobs like this. You are what your record is and your actions speak louder than words. On top of it, we have a TERRIBLE back up hire at the GM position and there is NO WAY in heck that he left the TBE to come here for nothing less than a large $ and year commitment. Yes the same guy we fleeced oak for Camby.
RIP Crushalot😞
nixluva
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10/1/2006  5:32 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

--->PAYROLL has NOTHING to do with it

Sure it does, it has everything to do with it. It's called management. When you are given an open checkbook to the tune of doubling most other teams payrolls and you produce putrid teams, the buck stops here. Everyone blames LB???? but no one says how much money Isiah has spent on coaches alone. He made the decision to hire LB with this group--it's HIS management call. EVERYONE knew LB was a shaky propositiuon with his health and history and they bought it anyway, like they bought the Jerome James's of the world. Most people on this forum are intelligent and don't listen to $pin jobs like this. You are what your record is and your actions speak louder than words. On top of it, we have a TERRIBLE back up hire at the GM position and there is NO WAY in heck that he left the TBE to come here for nothing less than a large $ and year commitment. Yes the same guy we fleeced oak for Camby.

The issue at hand is whether Isiah being the COACH and the addition of Jared is enough to help this team get 20 more wins than last year. The payroll doesn't factor into that question. Only the abilities of the Coach and his players. That excludes ex-coaches and ex-players.

I think its an agreed upon fact that Isiah spent too much money for very little results. However I think this is a shortsighted view to take. The issue isn't whether we won or lost a bunch of games in the last 2.5 years. The issue is can this team which is now setup with some young talent, improve enough to become a legit contender over the next 5 years. If this team takes a significant step in the right direction this year, NONE of the old salary cap arguments mean a thing. See we could've lost as many games and not spend any money and to me that wouldn't really make it any better. Just as I won't care about how much is spent if the team makes the playoffs. All I'll care about is the fact that the team made the playoffs.



[Edited by - NIXLUVA on 10-01-2006 5:33 PM]
rvhoss
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10/1/2006  5:51 PM
yes, while we all may have our opinions, there is no denying we are a half season away from moving towards a team that contend.

Everyone keeps ignoring how long isiah has actually been GM.

I read a post that we should have let vin baker and moochie norris walk "a long time ago", if by a long time ago they mean this summer last year, then you are talking about peanuts.

The rooks coming into their second year will make the biggest difference in our record...the salary includes allan houston (yeah, that's isiah's fault), so briggs, you have to see his point when he says you can't keep saying "based on the salary"

It's been 2.5 years and the salaries have matched coming and going, we had such crappy chips to play with, we had to give up picks, but of all the picks we kept giving up, we have 5 first rounders on our team from the last two years and they all can/will contribute.

remember how long ago it was when isiah took over and had no first round pick and a bloated roster?

I can, it was a little over 32 months ago.
all kool aid all the time.
tapseer
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10/1/2006  6:35 PM
Nixluva, you're like one of maybe three guys that makes sense around here. It's amazing how you're always defending yourself about how good you feel about the team. Keep it up!!!
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