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this squads biggest shortcoming
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Panos
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9/26/2006  11:27 AM
We've all discussed the long list of shortcomings with this team:
- no point first PG
- no reliable 3-pt shooter
- bad perimeter defense
- bad interior defense
- bad chemistry/attitudes
etc. etc.

We are aware, too, of the positives on this team:
- great slashers
- lots of height/length
- good mid-range shooting
- athletic
- lots of developing youth


From what I can tell, chemistry/attitude can sink this ship faster than any other problem
(see last year). But even if Isiah can clean up or repress the chemistry issues, my biggest
problem with this team is the lack of a gritty, strong, dependable front court player.
We NEED a player that can put a body on the dominant 4/5's in the league.
We need our Zo. Somebody who can come into the game an really slow down the opponent's
big man. This is a role that was filled quite handily by Jackie Blue last year, and you
all will see that we will miss him this year.

Big Snacks could do it if he would just get his **** together, lose some weight
and show up in shape. If he did, I think he could see 15-20 mpg.
Unfortunately, I have a better chance of winning $5,000 a week for life.
Fact is, if that fat bastard doesn't show up in shape, I think Dolan should cut him,
and let him go to court to try to collect the money he doesn't deserve.
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TMS
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9/26/2006  2:09 PM
funny thing is the closest thing we have to a guy like you're describing (someone who can body up on frontcourt players & bang down low) is Maurice Taylor... David Lee could be that type of player if he bulked up a little more.

Jerome James will never be anything but a useless 7 foot piece of garbage to throw in a game to collect 5 fouls in 5 minutes.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-26-2006 2:10 PM]
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Panos
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9/26/2006  2:19 PM
Posted by TMS:

funny thing is the closest thing we have to a guy like you're describing (someone who can body up on frontcourt players & bang down low) is Maurice Taylor... David Lee could be that type of player if he bulked up a little more.

I don't know about Mo. Just not effective on D. David Lee has potential, but like you say, needs more bulk.
Posted by TMS:

Jerome James will never be anything but a useless 7 foot piece of garbage to throw in a game to collect 5 fouls in 5 minutes.

Yes, but not because of physical limitations. He just doesn't have the drive to get into shape.
That's what makes it even that much more frustrating!
crzymdups
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9/26/2006  3:11 PM
Mo Taylor is hands down the worst help defender and one on one defender I've seen on this team in the last few years, and that's saying something. His one defensive move is to try and take a charge.

I agree that that is a big hole. This is why I'm bracing for, not neccesarily looking forward to, a Kmart trade in the next month. We'll see, I guess.
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eViL
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9/26/2006  3:18 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Mo Taylor is hands down the worst help defender and one on one defender I've seen on this team in the last few years, and that's saying something.

Especially with Marbury on the team. He made Delonte West, Tyronn Lue and Dan Dickau look like all-stars.
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TMS
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9/26/2006  6:38 PM
i thought he did a decent job last year of drawing charges in the lane & wasn't afraid of absorbing contact like so many other of our bigmen were last year... that much i'll give him credit for... is he a good defender? of course not, but he's not as bad as crzy's making him out to be... at least he ATTEMPTS to play defense, which is more than i can say for guys like Jalen Rose & Steve Francis last year.
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Masterplan
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9/26/2006  7:01 PM
Posted by TMS:

i thought he did a decent job last year of drawing charges in the lane & wasn't afraid of absorbing contact like so many other of our bigmen were last year... that much i'll give him credit for... is he a good defender? of course not, but he's not as bad as crzy's making him out to be... at least he ATTEMPTS to play defense, which is more than i can say for guys like Jalen Rose & Steve Francis last year.


hey, if they were getting the minutes they deserved they might have played defense.
Masterplan
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9/26/2006  7:02 PM
i liked what i saw out of mo last year. i was angry the first time i saw him check in, but his play was better than the absolute worst i had expected. so good for him. i think if he gets a reasonable contract from some team elsewhere in the league he can contribute.
arkrud
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9/26/2006  10:36 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by TMS:

i thought he did a decent job last year of drawing charges in the lane & wasn't afraid of absorbing contact like so many other of our bigmen were last year... that much i'll give him credit for... is he a good defender? of course not, but he's not as bad as crzy's making him out to be... at least he ATTEMPTS to play defense, which is more than i can say for guys like Jalen Rose & Steve Francis last year.




hey, if they were getting the minutes they deserved they might have played defense.

This is VERY sad that Mo looks like great defender on this team.
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EnySpree
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9/26/2006  11:21 PM
I agree the knicks need more toughness inside but I don't think getting one player is gonna change much. Zo is an above average big man even though he is a shell of himself offensively. I think more than anything there needs to a better game plan from the bench. Last year guys were looking around not knowing which way to go.

Another thing. Jackie butler had a decent year but he was no enforcer. He came on strong for a few games down the stretch but he was by no means having a huge impact on the interior. If he was like that he would still be here.

Other than that I think you have it down. 6 more days, son...6 more days.
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jazz74
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9/27/2006  12:21 PM
Posted by TMS:

funny thing is the closest thing we have to a guy like you're describing (someone who can body up on frontcourt players & bang down low) is Maurice Taylor... David Lee could be that type of player if he bulked up a little more.

Jerome James will never be anything but a useless 7 foot piece of garbage to throw in a game to collect 5 fouls in 5 minutes.

[Edited by - TMS on 09-26-2006 2:10 PM]

i hope you mean malik rose in oppose to mo taylor. mo taylor is too soft. rose, however, does bang in the paint but his hieght makes him a huse liability.
TMS
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9/27/2006  1:24 PM
no, i meant what i said... Malik's a banger too, but Mo was usually the guy banging down low, whether that was drawing offensive fouls on the other team or defensive fouls against him, he tried... that's more than i can say for guys like Channing Frye & Eddy Curry, who did very little banging down low on defense last year.
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buddapaw
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9/27/2006  1:49 PM
How can he play defence if the ball is glued to his hands.
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TMS
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9/27/2006  1:54 PM
look, u can take ur potshots at the guy... he certainly wasn't a big positive last season, not that there were that many to begin with... still, he didn't come here w/huge expectations, unlike guys like Eddy Curry, who was a complete nonexistent entity on defense last season... Mo at least gave an effort, so for that much i give the guy some credit.
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buddapaw
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9/27/2006  2:26 PM
Posted by TMS:

look, u can take ur potshots at the guy... he certainly wasn't a big positive last season, not that there were that many to begin with... still, he didn't come here w/huge expectations, unlike guys like Eddy Curry, who was a complete nonexistent entity on defense last season... Mo at least gave an effort, so for that much i give the guy some credit.

You also have to remember that for every charge he took (the only thing he did well) 10 times over he is forcing the ball in the paint, also biyatching about playing time and he wasn't in great shape either. The main thing is that Curry & Frye are still young and learning and you can at least work with that. That ship have already sailed for the likes of Taylor, Marbury, Francis, Rose and Fatburger. So let's looks for the future. At least Fyre showed the willingness to learn even though he was yo-yoed all over the place. Can't teach an old dog new tricks I say. We just have to wait until two gm's who are stupid enough to take the Franchisebury let us off the hook.
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nixluva
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9/27/2006  3:12 PM
Posted by Panos:

We've all discussed the long list of shortcomings with this team:
- no point first PG
- no reliable 3-pt shooter
- bad perimeter defense
- bad interior defense
- bad chemistry/attitudes
etc. etc.

We are aware, too, of the positives on this team:
- great slashers
- lots of height/length
- good mid-range shooting
- athletic
- lots of developing youth


From what I can tell, chemistry/attitude can sink this ship faster than any other problem
(see last year). But even if Isiah can clean up or repress the chemistry issues, my biggest
problem with this team is the lack of a gritty, strong, dependable front court player.
We NEED a player that can put a body on the dominant 4/5's in the league.
We need our Zo. Somebody who can come into the game an really slow down the opponent's
big man. This is a role that was filled quite handily by Jackie Blue last year, and you
all will see that we will miss him this year.

Big Snacks could do it if he would just get his **** together, lose some weight
and show up in shape. If he did, I think he could see 15-20 mpg.
Unfortunately, I have a better chance of winning $5,000 a week for life.
Fact is, if that fat bastard doesn't show up in shape, I think Dolan should cut him,
and let him go to court to try to collect the money he doesn't deserve.

Just a couple of things. One thing that I don't agree with is the chemistry being bad. The TEAM actually likes each other. Sure there was the thing with Q and Steph, but overall most of the team are good friends with each other and have been before they came to the Knicks. Q and Curry were already friends. Jamal and Curry were already friends. Frye, Lee and Nate became friends and actually knew each other since college. I think most of the issues last year had more to do with LOSING. When you're losing NO ONE is happy. The team hadn't had any success together to build off of and fall back on.

Also, i'm not sure that its so important to have tough frontcourt players. So few teams actually have that anymore and there are plenty of teams that are successful despite not having that. It helps, but the league is more of a finesse league now anyway. I think we'll be able to hold our own this year.
Panos
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9/27/2006  3:35 PM
Posted by nixluva:


Just a couple of things. One thing that I don't agree with is the chemistry being bad. The TEAM actually likes each other. Sure there was the thing with Q and Steph, but overall most of the team are good friends with each other and have been before they came to the Knicks. Q and Curry were already friends. Jamal and Curry were already friends. Frye, Lee and Nate became friends and actually knew each other since college. I think most of the issues last year had more to do with LOSING. When you're losing NO ONE is happy. The team hadn't had any success together to build off of and fall back on.

Not convinced. There are still not enough minutes in a game for all the players
on this team that would probably have significant rolls on other teams.
Unless IT pulls a few 2-for-1 trades, or starts cutting dead wood,
we are going to have time contention issues. That will be a bigger issue than losing.
Guys next contracts will be based on the statistics that they won't be able
to put up because they can't get out on the floor. Ultimately, that will keep chemistry bad.

Posted by nixluva:

Also, i'm not sure that its so important to have tough frontcourt players. So few teams actually have that anymore and there are plenty of teams that are successful despite not having that. It helps, but the league is more of a finesse league now anyway. I think we'll be able to hold our own this year.

Likewise not convinced. Aside from the defense issue, this tough guy is going to have to grab
rebounds. Who is going to be the rebounder on this team? Channing? Eddy? Don't think so.
Unfortunately we're in a position that if our little guys don't man up for rebounds, we're
going to get killed on the boards.
Then back on the defense issue, basketball is a two-way game. You have not just to score points
but score more than your opponent. So again, it doesn't matter if Frye and Curry combine for
35 points a night if they let the opposing duo score 40 (AND let them get more rebounds which
translates into more shots for the rest of the teams as well).




[Edited by - panos on 09-27-2006 3:36 PM]
TMS
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9/27/2006  6:41 PM
Posted by buddapaw:

You also have to remember that for every charge he took (the only thing he did well) 10 times over he is forcing the ball in the paint, also biyatching about playing time and he wasn't in great shape either. The main thing is that Curry & Frye are still young and learning and you can at least work with that. That ship have already sailed for the likes of Taylor, Marbury, Francis, Rose and Fatburger. So let's looks for the future. At least Fyre showed the willingness to learn even though he was yo-yoed all over the place. Can't teach an old dog new tricks I say. We just have to wait until two gm's who are stupid enough to take the Franchisebury let us off the hook.

completely fair... i hope David Lee becomes that bang em down low type player we need on this team someday... i don't think Frye will ever be that type of player... he'll resemble more of Charles Smith's finesse style game w/a more aggressive demeanor... as for Eddy Curry who the hell knows what he'll be in the coming years? could be he's all he'll ever be right now too... personally i don't ever see him being a Shaq type dominant player in the post on both sides of the ball... hopefully i'm completely off base on that one.



[Edited by - TMS on 09-27-2006 6:42 PM]
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nyk4ever
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9/27/2006  7:00 PM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by TMS:

look, u can take ur potshots at the guy... he certainly wasn't a big positive last season, not that there were that many to begin with... still, he didn't come here w/huge expectations, unlike guys like Eddy Curry, who was a complete nonexistent entity on defense last season... Mo at least gave an effort, so for that much i give the guy some credit.

You also have to remember that for every charge he took (the only thing he did well) 10 times over he is forcing the ball in the paint, also biyatching about playing time and he wasn't in great shape either. The main thing is that Curry & Frye are still young and learning and you can at least work with that. That ship have already sailed for the likes of Taylor, Marbury, Francis, Rose and Fatburger. So let's looks for the future. At least Fyre showed the willingness to learn even though he was yo-yoed all over the place. Can't teach an old dog new tricks I say. We just have to wait until two gm's who are stupid enough to take the Franchisebury let us off the hook.

I've been a very big advocate of Lee starting in place of Frye for the sole reason he rebounds the ball. With a frontline of Curry/Frye the rebounding will simply not be there. Frye has shown that he plays extremely well off the bench with Jamal, Nate and Q and I think it should stay that way. This has nothing to do with who might be the better player, because Channing has more potential, but if we're really playing for the here and now than David Lee should be starting becuase the team needs his rebounding and hustle in the starting lineup. If the Knicks had a center who was capable of rebounding, this wouldn't be a problem.
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Panos
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9/28/2006  12:00 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I've been a very big advocate of Lee starting in place of Frye for the sole reason he rebounds the ball. With a frontline of Curry/Frye the rebounding will simply not be there. Frye has shown that he plays extremely well off the bench with Jamal, Nate and Q and I think it should stay that way. This has nothing to do with who might be the better player, because Channing has more potential, but if we're really playing for the here and now than David Lee should be starting becuase the team needs his rebounding and hustle in the starting lineup. If the Knicks had a center who was capable of rebounding, this wouldn't be a problem.

I agree 100%. You need him in there to make up for what Frye/Curry lack.
I'd say you could also experiment starting Frye at center, Lee at PF, but Isiah gambled too
much on Curry for that to happen. Marbury and Curry are Isiah's centerpieces.
They're starting no matter what.
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