Posted by LongIslandKnicksFan:

I seriously believe that WWIII has already started and we just don't know it yet.

Rome fell, to be sure. It just didn't fall when it was supposed to. All the reference books say it fell in A.D. 476. But Romans didn't know this, and kept the empire going for another two centuries or so.

Why have we been taught to believe it ended in A.D. 476? Because one day, about three hundred years ago, historians decided it would be easier for students if world history were divided into three periods: Ancient, Medival, and Modern. And they figured that 476--the year of Rome's last emperor--was a nice date to use in marking the end of an epoch. But the selection of 476 was arbitrary.

Why did Rome fall? Was it because Christianity weakened the bonds that had held it together? Was it because people became corrupt? Was it because it just got too big? Was it because of the barbarian attacks? Was it because they had started using lead pots and got lead poisoning? (Yes, even this argument had been advanced) Or was it simply that empires always fall and somebody decided this was as good a time as any?

The correct answer is, of course, that none of these answers is correct. There wasn't any single cause.

An underestimated factor may have been that they made too many stupid mistakes. Take Hadrians Wall, built in England at the time of Emperor Hadrian. A prudent government, concerned with the defense of the wall, would have installed a moat around the outside. But what did the Romans do? They built moats on both sides of the wall, at a cost, it is said, of a million days' labor.

Why did they build the inside moat? Historians have forwarded fancy explanations, one being that an inside moat was a convenience for customs officials. But the chief conclusion, I think, is that the Romans did it because of stupidity, a conclusion they themselves seem to have reached a short time later when they decided to fill the inside moat.

That the collapse of the Roman Empire was a calamity is true. Seeing all the bad that came of it--the sacking of Rome, the destruction of art, the withering of great cities, the deterioration of the system of roads, the ruin of the Mediterranean trade, and the loss of European unity--it's difficult to imagine any good came of it. But some good did result. The break up of the empire led to the abolition of slavery in Europe. Of course, this, in turn, led to the birth of serfdom. But the slaves were better off as serfs than as slaves.

Incidently, did you ever wonder why historians always refer to the sacking of Rome as "the sacking of Rome"? Nobody says Watts was sacked or Los Angeles was sacked, but Rome, it was sacked.

Who sacked it? Everybody thinks it was the barbarians alone who sacked Rome. But they got a lot of help from the slaves. In fact, the slaves probably did more damage to Rome than the barbarians did.

The sacking of Rome, in any case, is overated. It wasn't the catastrophic event it's been made out to be. You know when ancient Rome was really destroyed? It was during a wild building boom in the Renaissance.

It was like Vietnam. To save the place they had to destroy it. Take St. Peter's basilica. This great edifice, "the oldest, largest, most sacred building in all of Christendom," survived 1200 years. Then the Renaissance came along, and it was leveled.

Why? Americans will be delighted to hear this: it was because the Romans wanted something new. They were so proud of old Rome they wanted to hurry as fast as they could and rebuild it.

Whole sections of the city were demolished, sections that had survived the barbarian raids, the revolt of the slaves, numerous wars, and all manner of other calamities. It came about this way. Say you were building a brand new courthouse, and you wanted to put in a couple of columns, nice marble ones like the kind they used to use in the good old days. Where would you go to get them? Why, you'd take them from some old building somewhere.

Michelangelo and some others complained about the practice, but nobody listened.

What they did with Rome's old statues, incidently, is even more appalling. They used them to make lime! Ever wonder what happened to the thousands upon thousands of marble statues made in ancient times? In the Renaissance they burned loads of them to make lime to make plaster. They could have quarried new marble to make plaster, of course. But this was easier.

You mustn't think that it was just the Renaissance Romans who burned statuary to make plaster, though. Romans continued to do it later as well. One horrified archaeologist, in 1883, reported seeing old Roman statuary being burned to make plaster in a kiln near the atrium of Vesta. Eight of the statues, he observed, were "nearly perfect".

Posted by Nalod:

I read a statistic that violence was trending down since the early 1990s.

A lot can be said about he reasons, but there is a demographic theory that might be viable:

The effect of Rowe vs. Wade and increase on abortions.

This is not mine so don't shoot the piano player: But unwanted birth children tend to have more criminal elements than not.

So while the Right wing nutjobs might jump up and down about abortion, they also don't like welfare payments and funding the economicly deprived. But they love Capital Punishment!

GO figure!

The Iraq war is not the social divide that the Vietnam war was.

But remember at one time the Communist threat was real and fear was necessary to motivate funding for defense. The fear was magnified to jolt our society to action.

Is the Fundamentalist Islam movement for real? Do they want to take over the world? The difference is Communism is an economic ideology that few were willing to die for. Millions were forced to sacrifice to make it work. A fundamental religious movement like a jahad there is glory in dying.

The Popes statesments really called this out. Anyone even opposing Islam is marked to die. We are a "free speech" society and can speak out about just about anything with relative freedom. Not to say we don't pay a price.

Most of global societies recognize the need to tolerate and accept people of different ideals. MOst have learned very painful lessons. While the planet is far from this utopia, the Islam fundamentalist Ideal is anything but tolerant.

Its my opinion the Popes statements have historical basis and the reaction those words almost confimed it.

What I fear is we can't go at this alone and Europe must take a stance here. They cannot affort to appease this movement and remain neutral. The Pope kinda is forceing the issue to a head. His comments were very calculated.

What would a Papal asassination accomplish>? WOuld it motivate the masses? Like Pearl Harbor? The Sinking of the Maine? sinking of the Lusatainia? The Twin Towers?

Was 9/11 a deliberate sacrifice to stir up our society to act now to combat terror?

Was the sacrifice of 3000 people in the WTC to prevent dirty bombs or a biological event in our borders justifiable?

All I know is the cocaroaches of terror might have been on our doorstep and the actions since have SO FAR prevented far worse atrocious acts.

IM trying to see the big picture here but there must be a plan that is not just about action and reaction.

My theory is you can't chase the evil doers without cause. And if we must fabricate one, or exaggerate one (Weapons of mass destruction) then so be it.

Do I support this war? Not to exact revenge for 9/11, not for weapons of mass destruction, and not to back our idiot president.

But if emotion is needed to stir our motivation for a preemtive strike. And if it was needed to prevent a far worse string of events then I might could buy into that. I hate it, but might understand.

The public needs to demonize any foe that threatens us. Without it we don't do a thing until so motivated by evil. Thats our history.

[Edited by - nalod on 09-19-2006 09:24 AM]

Posted by Nalod:

If we don't need the oil, we can shut them off!

Oil companies are not in the business of conservation, nor are the powerbrokers who run things.

If we don't need their goddamm oil, let the rot in what ever miserable stew they want to lie in. Really, let them be in what ever makes them happy!

They are fueled by our intervention and when we are gone form them they can then find something else to get pissed at.

BUT were are sprung into action by the emotion that feeds our thirst for revenge!

ANd our cars are our freedoms.

And out larger homes (bunkers) are our refuge!