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Deep down inside you WANT Isiah on that line you NEED Isiah on that line
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bigpimpin
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9/12/2006  1:06 AM
For one or two reasons.

Either you want him to succeed, thus restoring the Knicks to prominence OR you want to see him fall flat on his face so you can start about fifty, I mean fiddy threads on Dolan firing him.

Tell the truth.
"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
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Marv
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9/12/2006  1:14 AM
his coaching is a desperation move. it wasn't designed to happen. not with the money they threw at their coaches. i don't think you want your team having to put its gm into a desperate situation as coach and telling him he has one year to save his job. not such a healthy situation.
Bippity10
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9/12/2006  8:04 AM
This is all apart of Isiah's plan. He has not readjusted at all(sarcasm intended).
I just hope that people will like me
nyk4ever
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9/12/2006  9:48 AM
I want a new coach, gm and most importantly team president. Someone whose done it before in basketball and can come in here and get things done the right way instead of these endless circle the New York Knicks organization seems to go in. Make the right hire for ONCE.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TheGame
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9/12/2006  10:45 AM
You are right. This had to happen. Either IT can pull it all together and justify his past 2.5 years as GM or it will all fall apart and the Knicks will start over under new leadership. I think IT can do it. As bad as people view his tenure here, the reality is that this team has more potential than half the teams in the league. In fact, on paper, this team is probably a Top-10 team in terms of overall talent. What remains to be seen is whether all this talent can actually come together on the court and win games. I am hopeful that IT can get this team to play up to its potential. In all events, even if it all falls apart, the new GM will have a solid base to build from in Lee, Frye, Nate, and Crawford (and perhaps Curry too if he takes his game up another couple of levels).
Trust the Process
bigpimpin
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9/12/2006  10:57 AM
I agree. If this season is not a success, and Dolan is a man of his words then the least that will have come of the Thomas tenure will be a young, and talented core of players for the next tenure to begin with.

"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
nixluva
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9/12/2006  1:28 PM
No one will be able to say that isiah didn't give this franchise a good core of young talent for the future. I think for 2.5 seasons, you'd be hard pressed to name another GM who has done as much with such an AWFUL Roster to start with. It hasn't taken Isiah long to totally remake this team and whether you like it or not its a better roster now.

I think its a shame that our coaching situation has been so bad and Isiah is to blame for that, however, I can't really blame him for the LB situation, cuz it didn't have to be like that. His intentions were good. This team needed a big time coach and he tried to get us that. Now that he's on the bench, I think its turned out for the best. I think he will turn out to be the right coach for this team in the end.

Its not like he's put a bunch of scrubs together. If he is as good as he thinks he is, then he'll find a way to get these players to come together as a team and we won't be talking about him being fired. He's really setup to beat the odds, cuz the team did so bad last year it won't take much to look better than that. The team has playoff talent and if isiah doesn't do much except give them a sense of order, this team will be competitive. Remember LB was trying to force square pegs into round holes and that is certainly gonna make for poor performances from most everyone, as it did. These players won't be total strangers like last year and our kids will be MUCH more relaxed and able to contribute. I just don't see why there's any doubt that this team will do much better this year and Isiah will keep his job. He doesn't have to be great for that to happen.

He's already said that this year he'll have the team thinking playoffs from day one. He's already said that defense will be a priority and in summer league the team was making an effort to defend harder man to man. I think most people really don't know what Isiah is about. He's a shark. He's not some nice guy that doesn't care about winning. Try to remember him as a player and what he was like and that's a much better image of who he is and what his level of desire to win is. Just because he's not the greatest GM and he's not always yelling and screaming, don't confuse that for a lack of fire and determination as a coach.
nyvector16
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9/12/2006  2:32 PM
I'm glad Isiah is on the sidelines.
If he fails... then he has to sleep in the bed he made.
But if he succeeds... then there is NOONE who can say it wasn't HIM that made it happen.
If we were to have done ok under Larry or any other coach then there are those who would say that IT is luckky to have that coach and lay the success on anyone but IT... The beautiful thing is... if he does indeed succeed... there is no room for ambiguity..
Win or lose the Knicks will be where they are because of Isiah..
I am rooting for them to win big time. This offseason has been harder on us fans than any other in recent memory. Can't wait for the games to begin.
gunsnewing
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9/12/2006  2:49 PM
or Isiah could win 40games make the playoffs, get bounced in the 1st round for a few years and deem it a success
bobs3304
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9/12/2006  3:38 PM
cant wait til he's fired...
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
arkrud
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9/12/2006  4:02 PM
Posted by nixluva:

No one will be able to say that isiah didn't give this franchise a good core of young talent for the future. I think for 2.5 seasons, you'd be hard pressed to name another GM who has done as much with such an AWFUL Roster to start with. It hasn't taken Isiah long to totally remake this team and whether you like it or not its a better roster now.

I think its a shame that our coaching situation has been so bad and Isiah is to blame for that, however, I can't really blame him for the LB situation, cuz it didn't have to be like that. His intentions were good. This team needed a big time coach and he tried to get us that. Now that he's on the bench, I think its turned out for the best. I think he will turn out to be the right coach for this team in the end.

Its not like he's put a bunch of scrubs together. If he is as good as he thinks he is, then he'll find a way to get these players to come together as a team and we won't be talking about him being fired. He's really setup to beat the odds, cuz the team did so bad last year it won't take much to look better than that. The team has playoff talent and if isiah doesn't do much except give them a sense of order, this team will be competitive. Remember LB was trying to force square pegs into round holes and that is certainly gonna make for poor performances from most everyone, as it did. These players won't be total strangers like last year and our kids will be MUCH more relaxed and able to contribute. I just don't see why there's any doubt that this team will do much better this year and Isiah will keep his job. He doesn't have to be great for that to happen.

He's already said that this year he'll have the team thinking playoffs from day one. He's already said that defense will be a priority and in summer league the team was making an effort to defend harder man to man. I think most people really don't know what Isiah is about. He's a shark. He's not some nice guy that doesn't care about winning. Try to remember him as a player and what he was like and that's a much better image of who he is and what his level of desire to win is. Just because he's not the greatest GM and he's not always yelling and screaming, don't confuse that for a lack of fire and determination as a coach.

I already asked you once on other thread what is the IT success criteria next season.
How many wins, PlayOff ticket, first round, hard play?
What you will see as success and what Dolan will set as a mark to get read of IT?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bippity10
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9/12/2006  4:05 PM
Direction should be more important than the amount of wins that we achieve. Unfortunately it's not. Setting a victory limit is the dumbest thing the franchise can do, and just continues a cycle of putting the coach against a number and allowing the players to hide behind that number. If things go wrong just turn on the coach.

Hopefully Isiah is relieved of his jobs as GM. Not out of punishment, but because he simply should not be doing both in NY. Let him coach the team and get an ally that can help build the team so we can stop pointing fingers, having competing plans, excuses and get down to building a champion.
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BasketballJones
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9/12/2006  6:43 PM
I don't have a problem with Isiah coaching. Maybe he, and the players he brought here, can turn this thing around.

I agree it's not an ideal situation with the owner saying he's just got one year and that "he made his bed, now he's gotta lie in it". That's not exactly the type of vote of confidence you want. And Dolan shares the blame - he enabled Isiah to make some bad moves with his "open wallet" policy.

I also think last year was a disgrace. Larry Brown behaved badly and so did Knicks management. They created a situation where the coach and management couldn't communicate directly. It's really unbelievable that something like that could happen, and that some grown up person wasn't there step in and say "enough of this nonsense."

I guess we all want to find someone to blame - evil Larry Brown, Bad Isiah, Numbskull Marbury. I still say we are dealing with a collective dysfunction.

Oh well. I like to start the season optomistic and supporing the team. Maybe Isiah can turn it around. Who knows?
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Bippity10
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9/13/2006  10:05 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:

I don't have a problem with Isiah coaching. Maybe he, and the players he brought here, can turn this thing around.

I agree it's not an ideal situation with the owner saying he's just got one year and that "he made his bed, now he's gotta lie in it". That's not exactly the type of vote of confidence you want. And Dolan shares the blame - he enabled Isiah to make some bad moves with his "open wallet" policy.

I also think last year was a disgrace. Larry Brown behaved badly and so did Knicks management. They created a situation where the coach and management couldn't communicate directly. It's really unbelievable that something like that could happen, and that some grown up person wasn't there step in and say "enough of this nonsense."

I guess we all want to find someone to blame - evil Larry Brown, Bad Isiah, Numbskull Marbury. I still say we are dealing with a collective dysfunction.

Oh well. I like to start the season optomistic and supporing the team. Maybe Isiah can turn it around. Who knows?


I'm with you Mr. Jones. I'm so sick of the infighting and backstabbing here with the Knicks. Coach's and GM's compete against each other to gain power, all at our expense. Enough is enough. Can we get two people taht are on the same page that want to work together. Last year was not about LB. It wasn't about Isiah. It wasn't about Marbs. That's just for the people that hate any of the above to discuss. The reality is that it is exactly as you say a TEAM DYSFUNCTION.

It's so clear to me that I can't understand how others can't see. We have a dysfunctional bunch in management that doesn't function as a team. In return we have a talented team that struggled last year because they didn't compete as a team. To hide this ineptitude we have management pointing fingers at anyone to protect themselves. In turn we have players pointing fingers at everything but themselves. We have coach's doing the same. When Management realizes it is a "team", the players will as well and so will the fans. Fans will never stop pointing fingers because that's what we do but at least we can limit the madness. Let's stop blaming LB for all our ills and realize we've been bad for 5 or 6 years for a reason. I saw it coming after the finals run in '99. I was one of a few on these websites that saw it occuring before Patrick was traded(yes self promotion). IT's time for the Knicks to see this as well. No more scapegoats. It's us!!!! Not LB, not Marbs and not Isiah. It's Us!!!!!!
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nixluva
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9/13/2006  12:27 PM
I think the whole focus of this season is going to be about TEAM. I think Isiah and his staff and most of the players want this to work. I think they have the right mental attitude going into this year and that it will show on the floor.
Its now a situation where they have no choice but to be united. Going into last year they may have hoped things would go well, but this year they have a singular purpose and its coming from a shared experience. I think they've all been effected by what happened last year and they don't want it to happen again.

Isiah is gonna use that bunker mentality to good effect. He can play on that us against the world mantra and I think it will help them to fight thru early problems. Just look at the way things are setup already. We're putting two positive guys into the starting lineup in Jared and Frye. Lee is moving up to a more prominent role over last year. Jamal and QRich are guys we know will do what's best for the team. Nate is highstrung, but he gives everything he has for the team. I think both Steph and Francis will feel like freed birds after last year. I can only guess that their attitudes will be better this year. We hope that Curry has been doing what he needs to do and will be ready to step up this year. All in all we have a VERY good 10 man rotation and a good bench. It's not about celebrating mediocrity. I think this team will take a big 1st step to getting back on the road to being a contender.
Bippity10
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9/13/2006  1:17 PM
We're putting two positive guys into the starting lineup in Jared and Frye

I think both Steph and Francis will feel like freed birds after last year. I can only guess that their attitudes will be better this year.

These are out of your own words. So why do you argue with me when I say the exact same thing. We both agree that the attitudes were poor last year regardless of the reasons. This year for us to be successful we need better attitudes.

I think the main difference is that you have to recognize that we have made this "1ST STEP" before. We've done it countless times in the past few years. That is not what we need to be concerned with. We know we can make this first step. The key is sticking with the plan. We've overturned the roster twice and have gone through what 5 or 6 coach's in 2.5 years. This is not sticking with the plan. When will it end. This has been our problem. This is what I've biotched about for 5 years now. Stay the course and build on what you started. Fans are optimistic about the current list of young guys but are not about the idea of a one year ultimatum and building around guys that admittedly have had poor attitudes in the past.

If they want cheers they have to do it on the court. It's that simple. AFter last year noone gets the benefit of the doubt. LB a 30 year success, if he coach's again he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. YOu now have to prove it. Your second paragraph is great. I agree this can really work towards our benefit. But until it actually does it's just more empty promises.

I'm not sure I really even understand what the argument in all this is. We all predict in the same general area. We all think we are mediocre with a chance for improvement if management goes against past moves. We all think we can see great improvement this year if the attitudes are better. What's the argument? From the way I see it the only argument is that some want to wait and see what happens(because they feel this team can go either way) and others are positive the way things are going to go. Possibly because they are psychic.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 09-13-2006 1:19 PM]
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rvhoss
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9/13/2006  1:45 PM
I think last year's attitudes were extreme for both players. Francis plays with joy.

I remember one quote from nate about not being aloud to get the crowd involved...that's one of marbury's mantras, getting the crowd involved...now, I know this isn't conducive to winning basketball, but it's part of the joy of the game.

all kool aid all the time.
Bippity10
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9/13/2006  1:53 PM
They should love the game because they love the game, but I see your point. Francis plays with joy when he likes the situation. Otherwise he pouts. I think when he asked out of a game in Orlando, that was extreme. But this is a fresh start for him so let's see him do it. He has to understand that Marbs will dominate the ball so hopefully he will accept his role regardless of what it is and play with joy regardless.

I dont' think too many had a problem with Nate's play and his overall enthusiasm. I think people had a problem with him flexing and posing in 30 pt losses. That's immaturity and he has time to grow, but he deserved the criticism.

Marbury can get the crowd involved all he wants. As long as he plays D, uplifts his teammates, acts like a leader and keeps his mouth out of the tabloids the crowd will give him nothing but support. He brings this nonsense on himself.
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bigpimpin
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9/13/2006  2:43 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I think the whole focus of this season is going to be about TEAM. I think Isiah and his staff and most of the players want this to work. I think they have the right mental attitude going into this year and that it will show on the floor.
Its now a situation where they have no choice but to be united. Going into last year they may have hoped things would go well, but this year they have a singular purpose and its coming from a shared experience. I think they've all been effected by what happened last year and they don't want it to happen again.

Isiah is gonna use that bunker mentality to good effect. He can play on that us against the world mantra and I think it will help them to fight thru early problems. Just look at the way things are setup already. We're putting two positive guys into the starting lineup in Jared and Frye. Lee is moving up to a more prominent role over last year. Jamal and QRich are guys we know will do what's best for the team. Nate is highstrung, but he gives everything he has for the team. I think both Steph and Francis will feel like freed birds after last year. I can only guess that their attitudes will be better this year. We hope that Curry has been doing what he needs to do and will be ready to step up this year. All in all we have a VERY good 10 man rotation and a good bench. It's not about celebrating mediocrity. I think this team will take a big 1st step to getting back on the road to being a contender.


Good post.

"Anyone who sits around waiting to hit the lottery, whether basketball or real life, in order to better their position is a loser."
nixluva
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9/13/2006  3:06 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Marbury can get the crowd involved all he wants. As long as he plays D, uplifts his teammates, acts like a leader and keeps his mouth out of the tabloids the crowd will give him nothing but support. He brings this nonsense on himself.

Really this is just a case of the media LOVING to bash Steph. He's abrasive with them and they don't like it, so they take pot shots at him whenever possible. Yes Steph makes their job easy, but they also pile on and create issues when there really isn't a story. The thing is that Steph has been the best player on this team and he hasn't always had much help. I don't think there's any question that he can lead this team to wins. As i've said over and over, no one was questioning his leadership when the team was winning and I think the team will be more ready to help hold up their end of the bargain this year. Imagine how much better this team will be when we get more of a contribution from the other talented players on this team. Steph is gonna do his part to help them and if they step up, like they did during the streak this team is gonna win games.

The reason that some of us don't doubt that the team can do it, is that we saw how much different the team looked when it was playing in a style that they felt comfortable in and the Starting Lineup and Rotation was consistent. That wasn't a fluke! Last years team always had that kind of ability and even more if it is put in the right situation. I'm not gonna go back and include the years before Steph in this discussion and really I make a separation between last years team and the years before that. This era is marked by the arrival of Frye and Curry and to some extent Jared and Lee. So to me its a NEW DAY! If all of these players had been here for the entire time then I could see a valid reason for dumping them in the same argument with the previous years. We have over 10 new players that weren't here in 2004-05. I'm sorry but that's a new team in my book. Last year shoud've been the base year and now its basically gonna start over this year with a new coach and new system. ONLY THIS TIME, its gonna be with a spirit of togetherness!
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Deep down inside you WANT Isiah on that line you NEED Isiah on that line
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