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This is still perplexing to me and in the fog of positivity I've never received an answer...........
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Bippity10
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8/24/2006  4:53 PM
Please help me out.

Last year:
1.) Marbs was Marbs
2.) Francis complained about not having minutes and that he better be starting or else "there would be problems"
3.) Jamal earned a starting spot in the second half
4.) Nate and the fans complained when he received sporadic minutes. He complained so much that he refused to shoot the ball one game to prove a point. Thinkinga bout himself above the team.

This year:
We have decided that we are going with the Marbs/Francis backcourt. This means they are getting 35-40 minutes a night. Best case scenario that leaves 26 minutes to split between Jamal and Nate. Since we have all decided that the only way you can produce is to get consistent minutes. Who sits? And when they sit should they be allowed to complain about their minutes and not play hard when they do get minutes?

If Jamal gets the 26 minutes and Nate complains what happens? If Jamal or Nate is outplaying Francis do we take minutes away from Francis? If Q outplays anyone in training camp. If you take minutes away form Francis and he begins to "start problems" do we fire LB again? Fire Lenny? Going into the season(assuming Eddie is in shape) this to me is the key to our season. This foursome of babydome will can outshadow any lack of performance from JJ or the young guys. If they perform together as a team should we are a legit contender for mediocrity. But what happens if they can't co-exist. What is the next step. The reality is as consitituted someone is going to get sporadic minutes or not recieve the role they feel they deserve. Basedon their only being 48 minutes in a game this is reality. What happens if those players use that as an excuse? What do we do?

Disclaimer: Because on this site you always need a disclaimer to deal with the over-reactors. This does not mean I think they will definitely be a problem. But going on past history.......

[Edited by - bippity10 on 08-24-2006 4:54 PM]
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newyorknewyork
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8/24/2006  7:59 PM
Marbury was not Marbury at all last season. Maybe personatlity wise and attitude wise. But not player wise. Marbury is definatly a better player than what he showed last season.

I don't know if anyone could really answer those questions right now. The only person that can answer those questions is Isiah. When those problems arrive.

There will definatly be a more positive atmosphere, and way more communication to the players about there roles and all that. And a better explaination about his decisions from the coach this season than that last yr. So at least that will be a plus.

Making an educated quess though. I think Nate sits a lot. He has players that are better than him at his position, bottom line. Crawford-Q1-J.Rose-Balkman is where the real heat is at. Either Rose or Q1 will sit the pine a lot while the other one will get only like 20mins at G/F. That will go down to who has the better camp. Taylor and M.Rose are going to sit a lot to. While Curry, Frye, Lee, Jefferies will probably take up all the frontcourt mins. I say Marbs & Francis will get 32-34mins. Crawford-Jefferies-Frye will get about 25mins. While Lee & Q or Rose will get 20mins. Curry will get 28mins. Thats 29mins left for Nate, Collins, Balkman, Rose or Q, Taylor, Rose, James. Which would = to 4mins per player. Thats with nobody getting injured. And truthfully, I wouldn't care if any one of those players complained. Collins, Balkman, M.Rose, James I don't see complaning. Rose or Q, & Taylor I could see complaining. Nate can go either way. But I don't see any of them causing enough trouble that it effects the team. Luckly Rose & Taylor are in there final yrs.

The problem we should be more concerned about is how Marbury & Francis work Isiahs system. Because if Marbury & Francis can't work Isiahs system correctly. And Isiah has to use Crawford or Nate more than Francis. Then I could see Francis being a problem. But then again if Crawford & Nate are doing a good job then Francis can just rot as we keep it moving without him. As he isn'the face of this team as he was in Houston or Orlando. But if Crawford & Nate, Rose, Q can't get it down neither than thats when we are in big trouble.
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knicks1248
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8/24/2006  9:00 PM
First of all winning solves most if not all problems, 2)Injuries to somebody will give others a chance,3)Rotation is also a fact, weather its going to be 10, 9, 8. And if your proves to be a successful one, then others will sacrifice. I never really paid to much attention to IT when he coach Indi, but I see us winning 40 or so games with this line up.
ES
BasketballJones
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8/24/2006  10:03 PM
Marbury was Marbury, but he wasn't Starbury.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 08-24-2006 22:04]
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Nalod
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8/24/2006  10:43 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Please help me out.

Last year:
1.) Marbs was Marbs
2.) Francis complained about not having minutes and that he better be starting or else "there would be problems"
3.) Jamal earned a starting spot in the second half
4.) Nate and the fans complained when he received sporadic minutes. He complained so much that he refused to shoot the ball one game to prove a point. Thinkinga bout himself above the team.

This year:
We have decided that we are going with the Marbs/Francis backcourt. This means they are getting 35-40 minutes a night. Best case scenario that leaves 26 minutes to split between Jamal and Nate. Since we have all decided that the only way you can produce is to get consistent minutes. Who sits? And when they sit should they be allowed to complain about their minutes and not play hard when they do get minutes?

If Jamal gets the 26 minutes and Nate complains what happens? If Jamal or Nate is outplaying Francis do we take minutes away from Francis? If Q outplays anyone in training camp. If you take minutes away form Francis and he begins to "start problems" do we fire LB again? Fire Lenny? Going into the season(assuming Eddie is in shape) this to me is the key to our season. This foursome of babydome will can outshadow any lack of performance from JJ or the young guys. If they perform together as a team should we are a legit contender for mediocrity. But what happens if they can't co-exist. What is the next step. The reality is as consitituted someone is going to get sporadic minutes or not recieve the role they feel they deserve. Basedon their only being 48 minutes in a game this is reality. What happens if those players use that as an excuse? What do we do?

Disclaimer: Because on this site you always need a disclaimer to deal with the over-reactors. This does not mean I think they will definitely be a problem. But going on past history.......

[Edited by - bippity10 on 08-24-2006 4:54 PM]


You bring up some good questions in the face of optimism. I don't know the answer.

I think Nate, Balkman, malik and jaelen don't get off the bench. Mo Tee will get minutes if not traded.

Winning will cure, but it still has to happen.

In my opinion, crawford finally played up last year and he looks like hes getting backup minutes to francis.
nixluva
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8/24/2006  11:25 PM
Steph clearly was not his usual self. I don't even know how that assumption could be made. It amazes me just how quickly we forget how good Steph and Francis really are. Neither of them has been given the freedom to jack up shots like Arenas and AI, 25.3 & 20-9 respectively. Neither should they on this talented team, but don't get it twisted they have that kind of talent. Steph showed just how good he is during that 10 game stretch and the only thing that could stop him was an injury. In Isiah's offense you should see more of the NASTY talent & skills that Steph and Francis possess. But rather than it being outside of the offense it will BE PART of the offense by nature. his offense is designed to take advantage of our guards talents. ALL FOUR should do great in this offense.

Playing Time... Its not really a big issue in my mind. For one thing with the tempo being a bit faster, there will have to be fewer minutes played by Steph and Francis. They will not be able to keep up that pace in situations where there are back to backs or long road trips. Then you have blowouts as well, which will give bemch guys a bit more floor time than usual. Foul trouble and injury may come into play as well.

The Offense is going to create more possessions per game, since we won't be walking it up as much and passing endlessly around the perimeter. A lot of the offense is designed to attack the basket quickly and that will mean more fouls and stopping of the clock. So I think that Isiah can keep these 4 guards happy. Nate will just have to understand that his time will come, but not right now.
nyk4ever
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8/25/2006  12:26 AM
Posted by nixluva:

Steph clearly was not his usual self. I don't even know how that assumption could be made. It amazes me just how quickly we forget how good Steph and Francis really are. Neither of them has been given the freedom to jack up shots like Arenas and AI, 25.3 & 20-9 respectively. Neither should they on this talented team, but don't get it twisted they have that kind of talent. Steph showed just how good he is during that 10 game stretch and the only thing that could stop him was an injury. In Isiah's offense you should see more of the NASTY talent & skills that Steph and Francis possess. But rather than it being outside of the offense it will BE PART of the offense by nature. his offense is designed to take advantage of our guards talents. ALL FOUR should do great in this offense.

Playing Time... Its not really a big issue in my mind. For one thing with the tempo being a bit faster, there will have to be fewer minutes played by Steph and Francis. They will not be able to keep up that pace in situations where there are back to backs or long road trips. Then you have blowouts as well, which will give bemch guys a bit more floor time than usual. Foul trouble and injury may come into play as well.

The Offense is going to create more possessions per game, since we won't be walking it up as much and passing endlessly around the perimeter. A lot of the offense is designed to attack the basket quickly and that will mean more fouls and stopping of the clock. So I think that Isiah can keep these 4 guards happy. Nate will just have to understand that his time will come, but not right now.

When will you ever realize that there is more to basketball than just offense? We know Marbury and Francis can play offense, theres never been a question about that but when you give up just as many points as you score its nullified.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TheGame
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8/25/2006  4:44 AM
The time crunch is going to be a real concern, but I agree with NewyorkNewyork in that the real issue for this upcoming season is whether the Marbury/Francis backcourt can work offensively and defensively. If these two can run the offense together and score more points than they give up, the team will win and players will not complain as much about playing time. It is clear that Nate is going to get squeezed, because Crawford and Q-Rich need those minutes, but who cares. Nate is a second year player. He has no right to complain about minutes. Some guys don't get 5 mins a game by their 3rd-4th year in the league (see Darko), so Nate complaining does not worry me. Jalen Rose could be a problem, but he is on the team for only one more season so forget him too. Really, as long as Marbury, Francis, Crawford, and a few of the big men are happy or at least, willing to accept the minutes given to them, the team should be okay. Hopefully, we can make a trade that consolidates some of our talent.
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fishmike
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8/25/2006  7:08 AM
well, if he's outplaying Francis, Q or Crawford in practice I think he's got every reason to complain about minutes. Publicly? Maybe not, thats not good conduct but these guys all think they are the best. Someone's not going to be happy. Lets just ignore that and other problems. I'm sure Isiah has a great plan as he always does. Dumping Steve Francis and Malik Rose for Webber might be a start.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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8/25/2006  8:31 AM
There are good players, and good players that play together.

The sum of the pieces don't add up on this team.

Faith is one thing, reality is another.

Lets hope it comes together, otherwise the hating repeats.
nyk4ever
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8/25/2006  9:09 AM
Posted by Nalod:

There are good players, and good players that play together.

The sum of the pieces don't add up on this team.

Faith is one thing, reality is another.

Lets hope it comes together, otherwise the hating repeats.

Great line Nalod.
Faith is one thing, reality is another.

Every fan on this board is rooting for the Knicks, some of us have different realities of what the team is though. Some distorted and most true.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 08-25-2006 09:09 AM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
franco12
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8/25/2006  9:13 AM
Depending on play, I am afraid Q is the odd man out- and we will see lots of three guard sets with Crawford sliding over to the three and two midgets (Francis, Marbury or Nate) in the two guard positions.

At some point, I have to belive a trade will get down and one of our big contract guys will be gone (Francis or Crawford) and possibly Nate as well.
Allanfan20
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8/25/2006  9:16 AM
I pretty much think that Marbury and Francis will definitely not be seeing 40 minutes a night, particularly Francis. Possibly Marbury, but I doubt it. However, if guys are really complaining, I think the conversation should really go something like:

Complainers: I am the best and need my minutes. WTF. Plus I am a free agent this Summer.

Isiah: hahaha, oh yeah? Well, I could possibly never work in the NBA for the rest of my life after this Summer. Sit your ars down and keep quiet. I'm trying to help the team here.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
nyk4ever
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8/25/2006  9:27 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

I pretty much think that Marbury and Francis will definitely not be seeing 40 minutes a night, particularly Francis. Possibly Marbury, but I doubt it. However, if guys are really complaining, I think the conversation should really go something like:

Complainers: I am the best and need my minutes. WTF. Plus I am a free agent this Summer.

Isiah: hahaha, oh yeah? Well, I could possibly never work in the NBA for the rest of my life after this Summer. Sit your ars down and keep quiet. I'm trying to help the team here.

Your forgot the players reaction to Isiah's comment.

Complainers: well I still want to play, I don't care what you or anyone else on this team is doing. I come first because I have 20&8 and all-star appearances.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bippity10
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8/25/2006  9:29 AM
My take is all the players are pretty equal in winning terms. Marbs and francis are a step above obviously in terms of talent but in terms of winning we've seen that it's all pretty equal. Marbs, Francis, Nate, Jamal, and Q have all proven capable of being in any rotation in the league. There is not one of them that is going to be happy sitting out. As fans we feel because we know who should start that this means those players will feel the same as us and be happy sitting the bench.

I'm pretty sure at the beginning of the season guys won't want to rock the boat. But come game 20-30 and 40 if Stevie is having his minutes eaten away and Nate isn't playing or Jamal or Jalen or Q they are going to say something. And will have to be dealt with. My question is more related to the fans. Let's say nate isn't playing at all. Finally game 30 Zeke puts him in to a game because Steph and Stevie are injured. Let's say Nate refuses to enter and instead points to Mardy. Or Nate enters and refuses to shoot. Shouldn't we all support this decision since it's okay to do this when you receive sporadic minutes?

I think the key to this team is obviously Marbs/Francis followed closely by eddie. That's obvious to the world. But the next step for me is the realization that if Stevie and Steph are playing well and sucking up minutes it will affect othe rplayers. And since we said it was okay to not play hard last year when you don't get minutes we cannot assume that it won't happen again this year. That players won't resent Marbs and Stevie. It's another powder keg possibility. At that point what does the organization do? Fire Isiah and bring in a new coach to deal with the mess. Or finally start cutting the fat?

[Edited by - bippity10 on 08-25-2006 09:31 AM]
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Allanfan20
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8/25/2006  9:31 AM
I'm pretty sure those people will be gone very very soon.

It's not that I even like Isiah having to say that, but him never having a job in the NBA is about 20X more severe (In NBA standards of course) than only getting 26-30 minutes a game and sitting in your contract year.

But pretty much, even if it's Marbury talking like this, and I don't doubt he will, then I betcha he's gone.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bippity10
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8/25/2006  9:32 AM
Our players history shows that when they aren't getting minutes theyw ill complain. Do we support our coach's decisions as an organization? Or do we do what we always do and blame the coach and let the players whine all year long? I'm very curious.
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Allanfan20
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8/25/2006  9:41 AM
I support the coach in this case, but I'm pretty sure there will be plenty and I mean plenty of Fire Isiah hyenas. Not that I even want HIM as the GM anymore, but as a coach, you have to support him if you want that stability you've been calling for.

I just can't see how any coach will even want to come here anymore unless they are a true masochist at heart.

But then again, Isiah dug himself into this mess.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
nyballer
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8/25/2006  9:45 AM
the backcourt glut is a serious problem. we need to get rid of two guards. im not so worried about guys like jalen and mo taylor because we can just cut them if they really are a problem (hopefully dolan won't let isiah trade them for bigger contracts). its more guys like nate and jamal and Q rich im worried about because these are guys (except maybe Q) that we should want to keep around long term. I really like jamal coming in to backup both guard positions and nate/mardy collins getting 10-15 minutes backup time. i would honestly be happy with marbury crawford nate and collins as our backcourt, with qrich and jeffries at the 3, and lee frye curry splitting time at the 4/5. balkman gets spot minutes at the 2/3 if he's needed. basically a 9 man rotation plus collins/balkman getting in every now and then.
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Nalod
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8/25/2006  9:55 AM
We are in serious win now mode.

Anything can happen.

Isiah, Francis and Marbury all are codependent on each other and really need each other to resurect the career.

Banking my career on Franbury has little prospect for feeling good about things.

Any failure this season is not cuz we old, or without talent. ITs cuz the roster is badly constructd with boneheads.

No GM can fix that unless they clean it out.

Isiah has a task this year.
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This is still perplexing to me and in the fog of positivity I've never received an answer...........
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