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One last NY Knick management brain fart
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BRIGGS
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7/10/2006  12:45 PM
We spend MULTI-MILLIONS on the likes of Mo taylor, Jerome James, Malik Rose ---you know the list YET we are being cheap with Jackie Butler who has his whole career in front of him? We cant pony up 5 yrs 15mm or so? I mean were paying shanden andersen 16mm to play for the hEAT. Its OK to spend tens of millions on luxury taxes for players past their prime etc.. yet we get a little break with Jackie and we choose to act like this??? We're arse-backwards!
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Andrew
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7/10/2006  12:48 PM
I think you are being a little premature with you statement. From my standpoint right now the Knicks are trying to find what Butlers value is right now.
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EwingsGlass
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7/10/2006  1:13 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

We spend MULTI-MILLIONS on the likes of Mo taylor, Jerome James, Malik Rose ---you know the list YET we are being cheap with Jackie Butler who has his whole career in front of him? We cant pony up 5 yrs 15mm or so? I mean were paying shanden andersen 16mm to play for the hEAT. Its OK to spend tens of millions on luxury taxes for players past their prime etc.. yet we get a little break with Jackie and we choose to act like this??? We're arse-backwards!

He is a restricted free agent. What is the point of putting up a contract before he negotiates one on his own?
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martin
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7/10/2006  1:14 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by BRIGGS:

We spend MULTI-MILLIONS on the likes of Mo taylor, Jerome James, Malik Rose ---you know the list YET we are being cheap with Jackie Butler who has his whole career in front of him? We cant pony up 5 yrs 15mm or so? I mean were paying shanden andersen 16mm to play for the hEAT. Its OK to spend tens of millions on luxury taxes for players past their prime etc.. yet we get a little break with Jackie and we choose to act like this??? We're arse-backwards!

He is a restricted free agent. What is the point of putting up a contract before he negotiates one on his own?

there is something to say about getting a player under contract and playing within your system from day 1, participating in Summer League, moving forward, etc. (notice my play on words, Killa. Don't let it slip you up, I have nothing more to add).

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metra
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7/10/2006  1:18 PM
Maybe Isiah's finally being responsible with money. I think this is a good move. Butler is unproven and shouldn't get much money. This has been a long time coming.
EwingsGlass
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7/10/2006  1:21 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by BRIGGS:

We spend MULTI-MILLIONS on the likes of Mo taylor, Jerome James, Malik Rose ---you know the list YET we are being cheap with Jackie Butler who has his whole career in front of him? We cant pony up 5 yrs 15mm or so? I mean were paying shanden andersen 16mm to play for the hEAT. Its OK to spend tens of millions on luxury taxes for players past their prime etc.. yet we get a little break with Jackie and we choose to act like this??? We're arse-backwards!

He is a restricted free agent. What is the point of putting up a contract before he negotiates one on his own?

sometimes there is something to say about getting a player under contract and playing within your system from day 1, participating in Summer League, moving forward, etc. (notice my play on words, Killa. Don't let it slip you up, I have nothing more to add).

On the other hand, establishing value and making a determination of whether to make a sign and trade versus plainly matching the offer has merit also. If another team offers a 1st round pick in a sign and trade, isn't that better since they do have roster issues right now? To that extent, the wait and see approach is preferable. They invited JackieBlue to the Summer League and he turned it down. After being in the league for 2 years, I don't know whether it is custom or a plain rule, but he doesn't have to play.
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nyballer
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7/10/2006  1:21 PM
This is the smart way to play it. If someone offers him a bigger contract than the knicks think he is worth (I would say 3.5 mil per year is the MAX they should pay him), then the knicks have to let him walk. other teams might assume the knicks will walk and we might get him for something like 1.5 million, in which case we saved a bunch of money - we don't want a repeat of the houston situation, overpaying for a player b/c we wanted to keep him.
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martin
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7/10/2006  1:22 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by martin:
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by BRIGGS:

We spend MULTI-MILLIONS on the likes of Mo taylor, Jerome James, Malik Rose ---you know the list YET we are being cheap with Jackie Butler who has his whole career in front of him? We cant pony up 5 yrs 15mm or so? I mean were paying shanden andersen 16mm to play for the hEAT. Its OK to spend tens of millions on luxury taxes for players past their prime etc.. yet we get a little break with Jackie and we choose to act like this??? We're arse-backwards!

He is a restricted free agent. What is the point of putting up a contract before he negotiates one on his own?

sometimes there is something to say about getting a player under contract and playing within your system from day 1, participating in Summer League, moving forward, etc. (notice my play on words, Killa. Don't let it slip you up, I have nothing more to add).

On the other hand, establishing value and making a determination of whether to make a sign and trade versus plainly matching the offer has merit also. If another team offers a 1st round pick in a sign and trade, isn't that better since they do have roster issues right now? To that extent, the wait and see approach is preferable. They invited JackieBlue to the Summer League and he turned it down. After being in the league for 2 years, I don't know whether it is custom or a plain rule, but he doesn't have to play.

absolutely.
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franco12
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7/10/2006  1:36 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

We spend MULTI-MILLIONS on the likes of Mo taylor, Jerome James, Malik Rose ---you know the list YET we are being cheap with Jackie Butler who has his whole career in front of him? We cant pony up 5 yrs 15mm or so? I mean were paying shanden andersen 16mm to play for the hEAT. Its OK to spend tens of millions on luxury taxes for players past their prime etc.. yet we get a little break with Jackie and we choose to act like this??? We're arse-backwards!


We should extend the FULL MLE to him- pay him $30mm over five years.

In two years, we've seen enough of him to know he is better than Jerome James and Eddy Curry combined.

The last thing we should try to do is act fiscally responibly and wait for his putz agent to find a team willing to extend a contract offer that we could match that might actually be less.

Continue our march to Financial Armageddon - Max out Jackie Brown NOW!
BasketballJones
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7/10/2006  1:39 PM
Why not? What's another $30 million to Dolan? There's something to be said for being the first NBA team with a billion dollar payroll.
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BasketballJones
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7/10/2006  1:41 PM
Wait a sec... Did you really say "Jackie Brown"?



[Edited by - basketballjones on 07-10-2006 13:41]
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TMS
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7/10/2006  2:21 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:

He is a restricted free agent. What is the point of putting up a contract before he negotiates one on his own?

agreed... everyone was moaning & groaning when the Knicks outbid themselves in signing Allan Houston to that ridiculous contract he signed... now that they're allowing the market to set itself first, i think they're going about it the right way... if Jackie B gets an offer, the Knicks can always match... if they let him go then it's a different story, depending on what he signs for someplace else.
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Nalod
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7/10/2006  3:32 PM
Can't remember the last time we had a restricted Free agent of youth?

Offer him a million, and let the market decide his price.

Keeping Mo T and letting Jackie Blue walk is stupid.

We still paying for Shandon? Is it like the bambino curse?
BRIGGS
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7/10/2006  3:50 PM
the market has been overpaying players this offseason. Whats wrong with locking JB up for 5 yrs at an avg of 3mm per? thats good business and long term discpline. If he signed to a minimal type contract and breaks out, it could cost the knicks millions more to sign him. Here you are paying him fair market value and locking him up at back up C pay[onthe low side] now if a team comes in and overpays jackie, we let the market decide hes not going to be a knick. But really its likely to late--whatever happens now is going to happen.
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McK1
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7/10/2006  4:50 PM
Jackie may not want to stay in NY.
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EwingsGlass
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7/10/2006  4:53 PM
Posted by McK1:

Jackie may not want to stay in NY.

Jackie doesn't really have much of a choice this year. He can take the qualifying offer and leave next year, but beyond that, he is restricted.
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franco12
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7/10/2006  11:10 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

the market has been overpaying players this offseason. Whats wrong with locking JB up for 5 yrs at an avg of 3mm per? thats good business and long term discpline. If he signed to a minimal type contract and breaks out, it could cost the knicks millions more to sign him. Here you are paying him fair market value and locking him up at back up C pay[onthe low side] now if a team comes in and overpays jackie, we let the market decide hes not going to be a knick. But really its likely to late--whatever happens now is going to happen.


Because Isiah doesn't want you bashing him in year three of Jackie's deal when Jackie isn't in the NBA and hasn't developed any further - Gee, why did you bid against yourself and overpay this scrub.

Isiah might be dumb, but he ain't this dumb.

Briggs- the qualifying offer has been made. Jackie can go out and get a contract offer from another team and let Isiah match it.

I'd rather wait for Jackie to have a breakout season and have to pay him for it than over pay.

Sometimes players take a step back in their development as players.

I can cite our own fat Eddy Curry who definitely took a step back this past season.
islesfan
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7/11/2006  1:51 AM
When Isiah takes back a lot of money the typical response is:

"It ain't your money"

When it seems that Isiah isn't willing to spend a few million after wasting hundreds of millions the response is:

"We shouldn't overpay. We should make him earn it."
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
gunsnewing
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7/11/2006  1:54 AM
Posted by islesfan:

When Isiah takes back a lot of money the typical response is:

"It ain't your money"

When it seems that Isiah isn't willing to spend a few million after wasting hundreds of millions the response is:

"We shouldn't overpay. We should make him earn it."


LOL might have to change the name of this place to ultimatehypocracy.com
EwingsGlass
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7/11/2006  1:59 AM
Posted by islesfan:

When Isiah takes back a lot of money the typical response is:

"It ain't your money"

When it seems that Isiah isn't willing to spend a few million after wasting hundreds of millions the response is:

"We shouldn't overpay. We should make him earn it."

My negativity alarm went off, so I came running to my computer. In your mind, IT should continue to "overpay"? Why should he give up the benefit of restricted free agency? It still isn't your money, but isn't being fiscally conservative is exactly what you and everyone else have been begging for? If you are pointing out hypocrisy, it goes both ways. Moreover, most of us are not saying "don't over pay Jackie", we are saying "take advantage of Jackie's restricted free agency status to gauge his value. When was the last time the Knicks had a restricted free agent?

For the record, while I like Jackie, I don't think he is all that amazing. I think Sweetney was better, but Butler is a poorer man's Mike Sweetney. Butler's got good hands, but I haven't been altogether impressed to the extent that I would forgo all other potential free agents for JB. If Reggie Evans were to become available at the same amount as JB, I would take Evans.
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