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dolan and isiah's side of the story
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djsunyc
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after seeing and hearing the interview, do you guys buy it?
i believe them
i'm not sure
this is propoganda and spin
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Rich
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6/26/2006  10:39 PM
It's impossible to say without hearing the other side.

It's like convicting a defendant based on the prosecution's case in chief. You have to hear the defense's case too.
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BasketballJones
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6/26/2006  10:41 PM
I don't totally discount their story, but I also don't expect them to present a balanced picture, so I voted for "spin".
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djsunyc
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6/26/2006  10:41 PM
rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?
Rich
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6/26/2006  10:43 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.
realhiphop
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6/26/2006  10:43 PM
I still can't see how Steve Francis would have made sense in Larry's eyes.
Killa4luv
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6/26/2006  10:47 PM
I believe them.

Its one thing to lie, but to make up that he was calling other Gms? I believe he did that.

Jalen and Francis being his choices that he soured on in 3 weeks? Yes I believe that.

Not taking responsibility for his actions? yes I believe that.

Pretending none of this ever happened? I believe that.

Also, forcing Isiah to coach the team now with no guarantee of another year, seems totally consistant with what they are saying happened with LB.

Isiah and Dolan being willing to do whatever LB wanted to appease him? I believe that.

what is it that people think he and Dolan are lying about?

wanting to WAIVE 6 players? That one sounds really really crazy, but I would have to say in light of the other things I think he is guilty of, its believable.

The only yhting they didn't say was that he purposely sabotaged the team.



[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 10:49 PM]
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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6/26/2006  11:03 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

I believe them.

Its one thing to lie, but to make up that he was calling other Gms? I believe he did that.

Jalen and Francis being his choices that he soured on in 3 weeks? Yes I believe that.

Not taking responsibility for his actions? yes I believe that.

Pretending none of this ever happened? I believe that.

Also, forcing Isiah to coach the team now with no guarantee of another year, seems totally consistant with what they are saying happened with LB.

Isiah and Dolan being willing to do whatever LB wanted to appease him? I believe that.

what is it that people think he and Dolan are lying about?

wanting to WAIVE 6 players? That one sounds really really crazy, but I would have to say in light of the other things I think he is guilty of, its believable.

The only yhting they didn't say was that he purposely sabotaged the team.

AMEN.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
nyk4ever
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6/26/2006  11:15 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:

I believe them.

Its one thing to lie, but to make up that he was calling other Gms? I believe he did that.

Jalen and Francis being his choices that he soured on in 3 weeks? Yes I believe that.

Not taking responsibility for his actions? yes I believe that.

Pretending none of this ever happened? I believe that.

Also, forcing Isiah to coach the team now with no guarantee of another year, seems totally consistant with what they are saying happened with LB.

Isiah and Dolan being willing to do whatever LB wanted to appease him? I believe that.

what is it that people think he and Dolan are lying about?

wanting to WAIVE 6 players? That one sounds really really crazy, but I would have to say in light of the other things I think he is guilty of, its believable.

The only yhting they didn't say was that he purposely sabotaged the team.



[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 10:49 PM]

See my thing is, I don't care if Brown did all this because he's been part of many winning teams and I'd rather my favorite team be in the hands of that guy and rather then Isiah Thomas' whose track record isn't as good as Browns. I have no problem with Brown wanting to get rid of players because thats what it is going to take to bring this team back to the Knicks we know and love.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:22 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:



what is it that people think he and Dolan are lying about?

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 10:49 PM]

Ummm, just about everything?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:22 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.

How do you negotiate deals when you don't have authority to make them???
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:28 PM
Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Rich
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6/26/2006  11:28 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.

How do you negotiate deals when you don't have authority to make them???

Whether or not Larry had explicit authority, he had apparent authority by virtue of his position.

Beyond that, if you're the GM of Team 1, and the GM of Team 2 offers you Player A for Player B, while the coach offers you Players A and C for Player B, the GM of Team 2 loses leverage because the GM of Team 1 may believe that the coach could pressure the GM into overpaying, thereby undermining his position.
CrushAlot
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6/26/2006  11:29 PM
The reality with Larry Brown is that he always wants to turn over the roster. It is the GM's job to make sure that bad moves aren't made so that Larry gets his flavor of the month player. Other Gms understood this, maybe Isiah didn't.
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nyk4ever
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6/26/2006  11:31 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Very good point Isles.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Killa4luv
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6/26/2006  11:33 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Just wondering but if LB is at fault for all of this, the way Dolan and Isiah are portraying it to be, then why is Dolan giving Isiah an ultimatum of 1 yr to show improvement? Doesn't make sense, does it?

Because the Knicks are a business, not a friendship. If there isn't improvement in a year it will be a disaster of monumental proportions for his bottom line. It makes alot of sense. Whosever fault it is, its got to be fixed, and if the team is as good as he says it is, and LB was as bad as he says he was, the Knicks should show significant improvement.

[Edited by - Killa4luv on 06-26-2006 11:34 PM]
islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:34 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.

How do you negotiate deals when you don't have authority to make them???

Whether or not Larry had explicit authority, he had apparent authority by virtue of his position.

Beyond that, if you're the GM of Team 1, and the GM of Team 2 offers you Player A for Player B, while the coach offers you Players A and C for Player B, the GM of Team 2 loses leverage because the GM of Team 1 may believe that the coach could pressure the GM into overpaying, thereby undermining his position.

Explicit and apparent??? Are you serious??? The fact of the matter is that he DIDN'T have ANY authority.

As far as your scenario, that's why you have a GM and you have a coach and that's why the GM is supposed to do what he feels is best regardless of what the coach wants. He's not supposed to be the doormat that they're now portraying Isiah to be.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BasketballJones
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6/26/2006  11:35 PM
The idea that Larry had, or thought he had the ability to trade players isn't news:

“We spoke this morning. Coach pulled me out of film and basically told me he can do whatever he wants with this franchise -- and that he didn’t want to trade me, that he wanted me to be here. And that everything that went on the last week is over with.”

“Coach flexed the real hard juice card, I know that. He definitely made me aware of what he can do. But that doesn’t scare me at all. This can all turn around. We can make the adjustment. Anything is possible.”

--Stephon Marbury 3/16/2006

This was all public, so the question is, how hard of a Juice Card did Larry actually have?
https:// It's not so hard.
islesfan
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6/26/2006  11:36 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

The idea that Larry had, or thought he had the ability to trade players isn't news:

“We spoke this morning. Coach pulled me out of film and basically told me he can do whatever he wants with this franchise -- and that he didn’t want to trade me, that he wanted me to be here. And that everything that went on the last week is over with.”

“Coach flexed the real hard juice card, I know that. He definitely made me aware of what he can do. But that doesn’t scare me at all. This can all turn around. We can make the adjustment. Anything is possible.”

--Stephon Marbury 3/16/2006

This was all public, so the question is, how hard of a Juice Card did Larry actually have?

Well he didn't make ANY trades unilaterally so I'd say that he didn't have anything close to the amount of juice that they're portraying him to have.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Rich
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6/26/2006  11:42 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by djsunyc:

rich, lb can say whatever he wants. he will refute alot of what dolan and isiah said. but after you heard the interview, what are your thoughts on their side of the story?

On it's face, it was believable, but I would at least like to see their evidence that Larry negotiated with other GMs and Asst. GMs. If they have proof of it, that's huge.

How do you negotiate deals when you don't have authority to make them???

Whether or not Larry had explicit authority, he had apparent authority by virtue of his position.

Beyond that, if you're the GM of Team 1, and the GM of Team 2 offers you Player A for Player B, while the coach offers you Players A and C for Player B, the GM of Team 2 loses leverage because the GM of Team 1 may believe that the coach could pressure the GM into overpaying, thereby undermining his position.

Explicit and apparent??? Are you serious??? The fact of the matter is that he DIDN'T have ANY authority.

As far as your scenario, that's why you have a GM and you have a coach and that's why the GM is supposed to do what he feels is best regardless of what the coach wants. He's not supposed to be the doormat that they're now portraying Isiah to be.

If you are the GM of another team, and Larry Brown, the Hall of Fame coach making $10 mil per, is telling you that he can negotiate deals, you are going to take him seriously, irrespective of specific duties his contract outlines.
joec32033
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6/26/2006  11:42 PM
I'm getting a little perturbed with all this conversation relating directly to Larry's "juice" and all....
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