[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

knicks' debacle full of irony, blame (article)
Author Thread
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
6/20/2006  11:18 PM
Knicks' Debacle Full of Irony, Blame
Let the Bad Times Roll if Isiah Replaces Brown
By JIM ARMSTRONG, AOL Exclusive
May 15, 2006

So the wheels are in gear for the Knicks to buy out Larry Brown . Not that they need the money, but I'll bet if they went to Stephon Marbury and asked him to pitch in, he'd do it in New York minute. And you didn't think he was a team player.

Talk about your ugly situations. At least the Knicks' vice president hasn’t shot anyone on a hunting trip lately. Of course, since he works for the Knicks and all, he probably would have missed anyway.

With the Clippers having risen to the top of the NBA food chain in Los Angeles, the Knicks officially have become the laughingstock of the league - no easy feat with the highest payroll this side of the Saudi Arabian royal family.

It's one thing to be bad. It's another thing to be God awful with the highest payroll in the business and no breathing room under the salary cap. Only Isiah Thomas could have pulled that off that trifecta.

Heck of a player, Isiah. As for his management skills and personnel savvy ... did I mention he was a heck of a player? Apparently James Dolan, the Knicks owner, is the only person in New York who doesn't think Isiah should be pushing a broom instead of pushing buttons in the ivory tower.

Last July, Thomas promised everyone the answer was to bring in Brown to coach on the NBA version of the Island of Misfit Toys. Now, less than a year later, he wants to run off Brown and take over the reins as head coach? What, does he need the Marriott points?

Putting Thomas on the bench would be the Knicks' biggest mistake yet. And trust me, that's saying something given the current state of affairs in the asylum formerly known as Madison Square Garden.


The Knicks, thanks mostly to Thomas' bumbling ways, have more question marks than Matthew Lesko's sportscoat. The only thing they have going for them is Brown's coaching ability. Well, that and those spiffy $1,500 suits Thomas wears at courtside when he’s not hiding from the season-ticket holders.

OK, so Brown didn’t get the job done. All right, so that's an understatement for the ages. He was an abomination, not to mention an embarrassment. The key thing to keep in mind was why he was an abomination and an embarrassment.

It's called expectations.

In retropect, no coach could have won with the roster Thomas had assembled. The Knicks' 23-59 season should have put everyone to sleep. Instead, their fans and media were up in arms.

Why? Because with Brown on the bench, they expected a respectable season, if not a miracle. That tells you all you need to know about who should be coaching the Knicks next season.

Either way, Brown or Thomas, the Knicks' talent level is lower than Calista Flockhart's cholesterol. But with Brown around, at least they would have hope.

Brown never met a horrible team he couldn't turn around. He has overseen more amazing makeovers than Oprah's nutritionist. It’s his specialty, his M.O., his trademark, his legacy.

Yes, the Knicks players revolted against him. Yes, by the last week of the season, he was so sick to his stomach he landed in the hospital. And yes, his coaching strategy by the dog days of the season was reduced to, in his words, "begging guys to play."

Yeah, and what else is new? Brown has seen it all through the years. Dissension, turmoil, point guards who care more about points than guarding anyone. You name it, he's been there, done that. The bottom line is that, no matter how ugly things have been, he has found a way to win.

And now, after Brown failed to produce an immediate about-face for the first time in his career, Dolan apparently wants to replace him with Thomas, who couldn’t get out of the first round of the playoffs with the Pacers ' talent in the early 2000s. Hey, don't ask me. All I can figure is Dolan didn’t have the nerve to fire Thomas the GM. Maybe he's doing this so he can fire Thomas the coach.

Who would have thought it would come to this for Brown? Talk about your ironic twists. He had finally found what he called his dream job. He was in his golden years, in his hometown, coaching his beloved Knicks, with the biggest contract of any coach in any sport.

You had to think, maybe just this once, he wouldn't bolt after a year or two in pursuit of his next reclamation project. And now, from all indications, he won’t have a choice in the matter.

No doubt, Marbury and his teammates are happy to hear it's going down. But mark my words: Before you know it, Thomas, too, will be sick to his stomach. And he'll have no one to blame but himself.
AUTOADVERT
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
6/20/2006  11:59 PM
And now, after Brown failed to produce an immediate about-face for the first time in his career, Dolan apparently wants to replace him with Thomas, who couldn’t get out of the first round of the playoffs with the Pacers ' talent in the early 2000s. Hey, don't ask me. All I can figure is Dolan didn’t have the nerve to fire Thomas the GM. Maybe he's doing this so he can fire Thomas the coach.

Hey Jim Armstrong. Check your facts.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
6/21/2006  12:42 AM
Thomas gets a bad rap for his Pacers career, but really he didn't do a bad job. He developed the young players that the team had and in particular J. O'Neal. He won more games than he lost and he at least made the playoffs when he was there. Remember also that he wasn't some grizzled vet coach and his team wasn't a ready made title contender:

"In his first two seasons as coach, the Pacers have compiled 41-41and 42-40 records, making the playoffs both years and continuing a string where the Pacers have made the playoffs 12 times in the last 13 seasons. They did so under a variety of challenging circumstances. The team that reached the NBA Finals lost three starters but Thomas fulfilled his promise to develop young players on the roster. Jermaine OÕNeal, Al Harrington and Jeff Foster all played key roles while compiling significant minutes. The Pacers finished the 2000-01 season strong, going 8-2 in April, and earning Thomas NBA Coach of the Month honors.

In his first two seasons with the Pacers, the team was eliminated in the first round by teams that went on to become the Eastern Conference Champions in that year: the Philadelphia 76ers and the New Jersey Nets. In his last year with the Pacers, Thomas guided them to a 48-34 record in the regular season and coached the East squad at the 2003 NBA All-Star game.

Heading into the 2001-02 season, the challenges continued. The Pacers had the second-youngest team in the NBA (behind the L.A. Clippers), then lost Harrington - a leading candidate for Sixth Man of the Year - to a season-ending knee injury in January. Then in February, the Pacers made a trade that sent Jalen Rose, Travis Best and Norm Richardson to Chicago for Ron Artest, Ron Mercer, Brad Miller and Kevin Ollie. That trade made the Pacers the youngest team in the league, but they finished the season by winning five straight and making the playoffs again, becoming the fifth-youngest team to ever make the NBA Playoffs."

I think Isiah would be a good coach for this young team and I think he'd have better succes with them than Larry. Larry has recently proven that he's no longer patient enough for a young team. Young players don't really like him either. Isiah would know how to reach these guys and get them to play for him.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
6/21/2006  12:55 AM
Posted by Jim Armstrong:


blah blah blah, I watch ESPN a lot, blah blah

¿ △ ?
EwingsGlass
Posts: 27716
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2005
Member: #893
USA
6/21/2006  1:53 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Jim Armstrong:


blah blah blah, I watch ESPN a lot, blah blah

lol
You know I gonna spin wit it
oohah
Posts: 26600
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/7/2005
Member: #887
6/21/2006  2:35 AM
Posted by nixluva:

Thomas gets a bad rap for his Pacers career, but really he didn't do a bad job. He developed the young players that the team had and in particular J. O'Neal. He won more games than he lost and he at least made the playoffs when he was there. Remember also that he wasn't some grizzled vet coach and his team wasn't a ready made title contender:

"In his first two seasons as coach, the Pacers have compiled 41-41and 42-40 records, making the playoffs both years and continuing a string where the Pacers have made the playoffs 12 times in the last 13 seasons. They did so under a variety of challenging circumstances. The team that reached the NBA Finals lost three starters but Thomas fulfilled his promise to develop young players on the roster. Jermaine OÕNeal, Al Harrington and Jeff Foster all played key roles while compiling significant minutes. The Pacers finished the 2000-01 season strong, going 8-2 in April, and earning Thomas NBA Coach of the Month honors.

In his first two seasons with the Pacers, the team was eliminated in the first round by teams that went on to become the Eastern Conference Champions in that year: the Philadelphia 76ers and the New Jersey Nets. In his last year with the Pacers, Thomas guided them to a 48-34 record in the regular season and coached the East squad at the 2003 NBA All-Star game.

Heading into the 2001-02 season, the challenges continued. The Pacers had the second-youngest team in the NBA (behind the L.A. Clippers), then lost Harrington - a leading candidate for Sixth Man of the Year - to a season-ending knee injury in January. Then in February, the Pacers made a trade that sent Jalen Rose, Travis Best and Norm Richardson to Chicago for Ron Artest, Ron Mercer, Brad Miller and Kevin Ollie. That trade made the Pacers the youngest team in the league, but they finished the season by winning five straight and making the playoffs again, becoming the fifth-youngest team to ever make the NBA Playoffs."

I think Isiah would be a good coach for this young team and I think he'd have better succes with them than Larry. Larry has recently proven that he's no longer patient enough for a young team. Young players don't really like him either. Isiah would know how to reach these guys and get them to play for him.



You're right Nixluva. Isiah should not be maligned for his coaching record. He was a decent coach, especially for a rookie coach, he was over .500 and he got to the playoffs every year. There is no reason to think he would not improve.

Sure Isiah did not make it out of the first round. Maybe he got outcoached. Maybe the other team was just better, same way the Pacers got eliminated this year.

The Pacers ousted Isiah because they think Carlisle is a better coach. The are probably right, but the Pacers are still not great, and they fizzle in the playoffs.

As an executive he has had his ups and downs. Not a good trader, but he is one of the best drafters around. I'll bet if he pulls an Amare Stoudamire type pick out of his ass the entire tune will change. Hey anything's possible!

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
6/21/2006  7:35 AM
Posted by oohah:
You're right Nixluva. Isiah should not be maligned for his coaching record. He was a decent coach, especially for a rookie coach, he was over .500 and he got to the playoffs every year. There is no reason to think he would not improve.

Sure Isiah did not make it out of the first round. Maybe he got outcoached. Maybe the other team was just better, same way the Pacers got eliminated this year.

The Pacers ousted Isiah because they think Carlisle is a better coach. The are probably right, but the Pacers are still not great, and they fizzle in the playoffs.

As an executive he has had his ups and downs. Not a good trader, but he is one of the best drafters around. I'll bet if he pulls an Amare Stoudamire type pick out of his ass the entire tune will change. Hey anything's possible!
he is definatly a good drafter. However I cant think of a worse trader. Its not just the bad trades or trades that didnt work out, its the fact that he's overpaid to the point where its killed the franchise. The worst part is he's traded his best picks since he's been here. I would think if anyone could find an Amare type talent it's Isiah. Think he's going to do that after trading away that lottery pick for Eddie Curry?

Its one thing to have a trade not work out. Every GM has that happen. Its another to look at a trade and realize if this doesnt work out I've just set the franchise back 3-4 years.

Also doesnt it bother anyone that as a player he was one of the toughest to play in the NBA? And he played on one of the toughest teams in the NBA, and as a Knick GM he's assembled a group of some of the softest players, and me-first players you have ever seen?

Based on the kinds of players he's added do you guys really have confidence he's capable of turning this around?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gr33d
Posts: 20788
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/19/2006
Member: #1097
USA
6/21/2006  9:14 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by oohah:
You're right Nixluva. Isiah should not be maligned for his coaching record. He was a decent coach, especially for a rookie coach, he was over .500 and he got to the playoffs every year. There is no reason to think he would not improve.

Sure Isiah did not make it out of the first round. Maybe he got outcoached. Maybe the other team was just better, same way the Pacers got eliminated this year.

The Pacers ousted Isiah because they think Carlisle is a better coach. The are probably right, but the Pacers are still not great, and they fizzle in the playoffs.

As an executive he has had his ups and downs. Not a good trader, but he is one of the best drafters around. I'll bet if he pulls an Amare Stoudamire type pick out of his ass the entire tune will change. Hey anything's possible!
he is definatly a good drafter. However I cant think of a worse trader. Its not just the bad trades or trades that didnt work out, its the fact that he's overpaid to the point where its killed the franchise. The worst part is he's traded his best picks since he's been here. I would think if anyone could find an Amare type talent it's Isiah. Think he's going to do that after trading away that lottery pick for Eddie Curry?

Its one thing to have a trade not work out. Every GM has that happen. Its another to look at a trade and realize if this doesnt work out I've just set the franchise back 3-4 years.

Also doesnt it bother anyone that as a player he was one of the toughest to play in the NBA? And he played on one of the toughest teams in the NBA, and as a Knick GM he's assembled a group of some of the softest players, and me-first players you have ever seen?

Based on the kinds of players he's added do you guys really have confidence he's capable of turning this around?

Looking at things from the standpoint of, this was our old roster:

49 Shandon Anderson
51 Michael Doleac
4 Howard Eisley
32 Othella Harrington
20 Allan Houston **
6 Maciej Lampe
34 Antonio McDyess **
55 Dikembe Mutombo
50 Mike Sweetney
40 Kurt Thomas
2 Keith Van Horn
29 Slavko Vranes
21 Charlie Ward
35 Clarence Weatherspoon
30 Frank Williams

Consider the ages and injury status of some of these players, we're not talking about 15 guys in their prime here. Isiah turned that into:

Jackie Butler
Jamal Crawford
Eddy Curry
Steve Francis
Channing Frye
Jerome James
David Lee
Stephon Marbury
Quentin Richardson
Nate Robinson
Jalen Rose
Malik Rose
Maurice Taylor
Ime Udoka
Qyntel Woods

The turn-around in "team talent" is remarkable, where we shouldn't be so dependant on one or two guys. This is a deep team on paper with a nice mix of veterans and youth. If Isiah would just show some regard for salary cap implications and the importance of defense now. With that said, he's done ok, but is on thin ice in my mind.

His moves draft night moves (which I expect) and anything done prior to camp will be key. Drafting is Isiah's specialty; I'd like to reserve judgement, just in case he pulls a rabbit out of a hat for us. One more blunder and he's sent packing though..
"If you ain't first, you're last" - Ricky Bobby
buddapaw
Posts: 23199
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 2/22/2006
Member: #1101

6/21/2006  9:21 AM
Worst trader? how soon we forget who we were trading. The likes of :
S. Anderson (brick layer extrodinaire) got a ring he will tell yah
H. Eisley (just crappy when not in Utah)
C. Weatherspoon (undersized and old)
Yes he should have protected the lottery pick, but I don't see any of these guys in this draft as a "Franchise Type player" and lord knows that Isiah couldn't even imagine that the Knick would have been this bad. Thanks Larry.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
6/21/2006  9:31 AM
Posted by gr33d:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by oohah:
You're right Nixluva. Isiah should not be maligned for his coaching record. He was a decent coach, especially for a rookie coach, he was over .500 and he got to the playoffs every year. There is no reason to think he would not improve.

Sure Isiah did not make it out of the first round. Maybe he got outcoached. Maybe the other team was just better, same way the Pacers got eliminated this year.

The Pacers ousted Isiah because they think Carlisle is a better coach. The are probably right, but the Pacers are still not great, and they fizzle in the playoffs.

As an executive he has had his ups and downs. Not a good trader, but he is one of the best drafters around. I'll bet if he pulls an Amare Stoudamire type pick out of his ass the entire tune will change. Hey anything's possible!
he is definatly a good drafter. However I cant think of a worse trader. Its not just the bad trades or trades that didnt work out, its the fact that he's overpaid to the point where its killed the franchise. The worst part is he's traded his best picks since he's been here. I would think if anyone could find an Amare type talent it's Isiah. Think he's going to do that after trading away that lottery pick for Eddie Curry?

Its one thing to have a trade not work out. Every GM has that happen. Its another to look at a trade and realize if this doesnt work out I've just set the franchise back 3-4 years.

Also doesnt it bother anyone that as a player he was one of the toughest to play in the NBA? And he played on one of the toughest teams in the NBA, and as a Knick GM he's assembled a group of some of the softest players, and me-first players you have ever seen?

Based on the kinds of players he's added do you guys really have confidence he's capable of turning this around?

Looking at things from the standpoint of, this was our old roster:

49 Shandon Anderson
51 Michael Doleac
4 Howard Eisley
32 Othella Harrington
20 Allan Houston **
6 Maciej Lampe
34 Antonio McDyess **
55 Dikembe Mutombo
50 Mike Sweetney
40 Kurt Thomas
2 Keith Van Horn
29 Slavko Vranes
21 Charlie Ward
35 Clarence Weatherspoon
30 Frank Williams

Consider the ages and injury status of some of these players, we're not talking about 15 guys in their prime here. Isiah turned that into:

Jackie Butler
Jamal Crawford
Eddy Curry
Steve Francis
Channing Frye
Jerome James
David Lee
Stephon Marbury
Quentin Richardson
Nate Robinson
Jalen Rose
Malik Rose
Maurice Taylor
Ime Udoka
Qyntel Woods

The turn-around in "team talent" is remarkable, where we shouldn't be so dependant on one or two guys. This is a deep team on paper with a nice mix of veterans and youth. If Isiah would just show some regard for salary cap implications and the importance of defense now. With that said, he's done ok, but is on thin ice in my mind.

His moves draft night moves (which I expect) and anything done prior to camp will be key. Drafting is Isiah's specialty; I'd like to reserve judgement, just in case he pulls a rabbit out of a hat for us. One more blunder and he's sent packing though..

he turned a crappy roster to a mediocre one AT BEST. we are comprised of nothing but role players (where some of them think they're better than). that's where isiah's philosophy comes in of trying to land that superstar via trade. too bad it's a flawed philosophy.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-21-2006 09:32 AM]
buddapaw
Posts: 23199
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 2/22/2006
Member: #1101

6/21/2006  9:46 AM
I've seen worse rosters win more games
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
gr33d
Posts: 20788
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/19/2006
Member: #1097
USA
6/21/2006  9:58 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

he turned a crappy roster to a mediocre one AT BEST. we are comprised of nothing but role players (where some of them think they're better than). that's where isiah's philosophy comes in of trying to land that superstar via trade. too bad it's a flawed philosophy.

I hear where you're coming from, but drafting a superstar isn't always a lock either. If it was as simple as getting the first pick and plucking your cornerstone, rebuilding would be a piece of cake.

Building a good team, can be done through trades and/or free agency. That's how Detroit, NJ & the Clips were built- none of those teams drafted a "superstar". Luck and taking chances is sometimes part of the game.

Do you believe these players were put in an environment to succeed last year? That is the 40 million dollar question right now.
"If you ain't first, you're last" - Ricky Bobby
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
6/21/2006  10:06 AM
Posted by gr33d:
Posted by djsunyc:

he turned a crappy roster to a mediocre one AT BEST. we are comprised of nothing but role players (where some of them think they're better than). that's where isiah's philosophy comes in of trying to land that superstar via trade. too bad it's a flawed philosophy.

I hear where you're coming from, but drafting a superstar isn't always a lock either. If it was as simple as getting the first pick and plucking your cornerstone, rebuilding would be a piece of cake.

Building a good team, can be done through trades and/or free agency. That's how Detroit, NJ & the Clips were built- none of those teams drafted a "superstar". Luck and taking chances is sometimes part of the game.

Do you believe these players were put in an environment to succeed last year? That is the 40 million dollar question right now.

nothing is a lock but by refusing to get under the cap and trading away higher picks for lower ones severely reduces those opportunities.
Nalod
Posts: 71931
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
6/21/2006  10:10 AM
HE turned a crappy roster who played with heart into the laughing stock of the league.

On paper we look good. The payroll is the highest ever!

Look, if you hate Larry, so be it. We all have our views.

Demonize larry and try to discredit his history. At the same time, Cannonize Isiah when most write he did a so-so job with his pacer team. His teams started the years strong and melted down in the second half. why? Why was he fired? Why did he not get a coaching job afterwards?

Before you go on about how he saved our team with the roster changes, why is it the rest of the world considers us the laughing stock of the sporting world?
gr33d
Posts: 20788
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/19/2006
Member: #1097
USA
6/21/2006  11:23 AM
Posted by Nalod:

HE turned a crappy roster who played with heart into the laughing stock of the league.

On paper we look good. The payroll is the highest ever!

Look, if you hate Larry, so be it. We all have our views.

Demonize larry and try to discredit his history. At the same time, Cannonize Isiah when most write he did a so-so job with his pacer team. His teams started the years strong and melted down in the second half. why? Why was he fired? Why did he not get a coaching job afterwards?

Before you go on about how he saved our team with the roster changes, why is it the rest of the world considers us the laughing stock of the sporting world?

I don't hate Larry, in fact I was all in favor of bringing him aboard. Nor do I judge his past success or failures with other teams, I'm concentrating on the NOW. The NOW for me, is that Larry can't co-exist with our current roster imo. He underestimated the power of the NY press and made rookie-coach mistakes. We underacheived last year and Larry was directing traffic, bottom line!

I don't believe roster changes saved us. Isiah is one thin ice, I stated that earlier.

Let's say we were under the cap now and had the first pick in the draft. What superstar free-egent and lottery pick would turn this thing around? LOL, we'd be just good enough to NOT have a shot at Oden next year, that's where we'd be. Timing has a lot to do with being successful, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know if IT is the long-term solution, but I'm not convinced Larry is either. And honestly, I don't care what Knick haters think of the team, screw them! Every team makes mistakes at some point, yet we're used as the league-wide examples. Everything we do is under a microscope, what else is new?
"If you ain't first, you're last" - Ricky Bobby
Nalod
Posts: 71931
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
6/21/2006  11:30 AM
Posted by gr33d:
Posted by Nalod:

HE turned a crappy roster who played with heart into the laughing stock of the league.

On paper we look good. The payroll is the highest ever!

Look, if you hate Larry, so be it. We all have our views.

Demonize larry and try to discredit his history. At the same time, Cannonize Isiah when most write he did a so-so job with his pacer team. His teams started the years strong and melted down in the second half. why? Why was he fired? Why did he not get a coaching job afterwards?

Before you go on about how he saved our team with the roster changes, why is it the rest of the world considers us the laughing stock of the sporting world?

I don't hate Larry, in fact I was all in favor of bringing him aboard. Nor do I judge his past success or failures with other teams, I'm concentrating on the NOW. The NOW for me, is that Larry can't co-exist with our current roster imo. He underestimated the power of the NY press and made rookie-coach mistakes. We underacheived last year and Larry was directing traffic, bottom line!

I don't believe roster changes saved us. Isiah is one thin ice, I stated that earlier.

Let's say we were under the cap now and had the first pick in the draft. What superstar free-egent and lottery pick would turn this thing around? LOL, we'd be just good enough to NOT have a shot at Oden next year, that's where we'd be. Timing has a lot to do with being successful, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know if IT is the long-term solution, but I'm not convinced Larry is either. And honestly, I don't care what Knick haters think of the team, screw them! Every team makes mistakes at some point, yet we're used as the league-wide examples. Everything we do is under a microscope, what else is new?

With all do respect, the NOW you speak of has been the instant gradification problem Dolan is forever trying to acomplish. Larry ate a 23 season for a reason. This team would not have done all that much better if we had another coach. its possible the rookies might not have played as much and we might have imploded even worse. Its not a given we were a 35 win team. IF Larry was about a foundation then we had to dig deeper to anchor one then orginally thought. Dolanites want quick results and the appearences everything is fine no matter how weak the underlying structure is.

BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

6/21/2006  12:31 PM
"[Isiah's] very creative, he comes up with a running offense," Pacers's Donnie Walsh said. "He's no Larry Brown, though. But he's farther along than you'd think, coaching just three years."

[Edited by - BlueSeats on 06-21-2006 12:32 PM]
buddapaw
Posts: 23199
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 2/22/2006
Member: #1101

6/21/2006  12:43 PM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by gr33d:
Posted by Nalod:

HE turned a crappy roster who played with heart into the laughing stock of the league.

On paper we look good. The payroll is the highest ever!

Look, if you hate Larry, so be it. We all have our views.

Demonize larry and try to discredit his history. At the same time, Cannonize Isiah when most write he did a so-so job with his pacer team. His teams started the years strong and melted down in the second half. why? Why was he fired? Why did he not get a coaching job afterwards?

Before you go on about how he saved our team with the roster changes, why is it the rest of the world considers us the laughing stock of the sporting world?

I don't hate Larry, in fact I was all in favor of bringing him aboard. Nor do I judge his past success or failures with other teams, I'm concentrating on the NOW. The NOW for me, is that Larry can't co-exist with our current roster imo. He underestimated the power of the NY press and made rookie-coach mistakes. We underacheived last year and Larry was directing traffic, bottom line!

I don't believe roster changes saved us. Isiah is one thin ice, I stated that earlier.

Let's say we were under the cap now and had the first pick in the draft. What superstar free-egent and lottery pick would turn this thing around? LOL, we'd be just good enough to NOT have a shot at Oden next year, that's where we'd be. Timing has a lot to do with being successful, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know if IT is the long-term solution, but I'm not convinced Larry is either. And honestly, I don't care what Knick haters think of the team, screw them! Every team makes mistakes at some point, yet we're used as the league-wide examples. Everything we do is under a microscope, what else is new?

With all do respect, the NOW you speak of has been the instant gradification problem Dolan is forever trying to acomplish. Larry ate a 23 season for a reason. This team would not have done all that much better if we had another coach. its possible the rookies might not have played as much and we might have imploded even worse. Its not a given we were a 35 win team. IF Larry was about a foundation then we had to dig deeper to anchor one then orginally thought. Dolanites want quick results and the appearences everything is fine no matter how weak the underlying structure is.

Foundation? wanting the likes of Ratcliff and Snow? It could also be possible that they would won more than 35 games. This is Larry Brown, he loves every other player in league as long as they are not on his team.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
Allanfan20
Posts: 35947
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #542
USA
6/21/2006  1:15 PM
Posted by gr33d:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by oohah:
You're right Nixluva. Isiah should not be maligned for his coaching record. He was a decent coach, especially for a rookie coach, he was over .500 and he got to the playoffs every year. There is no reason to think he would not improve.

Sure Isiah did not make it out of the first round. Maybe he got outcoached. Maybe the other team was just better, same way the Pacers got eliminated this year.

The Pacers ousted Isiah because they think Carlisle is a better coach. The are probably right, but the Pacers are still not great, and they fizzle in the playoffs.

As an executive he has had his ups and downs. Not a good trader, but he is one of the best drafters around. I'll bet if he pulls an Amare Stoudamire type pick out of his ass the entire tune will change. Hey anything's possible!
he is definatly a good drafter. However I cant think of a worse trader. Its not just the bad trades or trades that didnt work out, its the fact that he's overpaid to the point where its killed the franchise. The worst part is he's traded his best picks since he's been here. I would think if anyone could find an Amare type talent it's Isiah. Think he's going to do that after trading away that lottery pick for Eddie Curry?

Its one thing to have a trade not work out. Every GM has that happen. Its another to look at a trade and realize if this doesnt work out I've just set the franchise back 3-4 years.

Also doesnt it bother anyone that as a player he was one of the toughest to play in the NBA? And he played on one of the toughest teams in the NBA, and as a Knick GM he's assembled a group of some of the softest players, and me-first players you have ever seen?

Based on the kinds of players he's added do you guys really have confidence he's capable of turning this around?

Looking at things from the standpoint of, this was our old roster:

49 Shandon Anderson
51 Michael Doleac
4 Howard Eisley
32 Othella Harrington
20 Allan Houston **
6 Maciej Lampe
34 Antonio McDyess **
55 Dikembe Mutombo
50 Mike Sweetney
40 Kurt Thomas
2 Keith Van Horn
29 Slavko Vranes
21 Charlie Ward
35 Clarence Weatherspoon
30 Frank Williams

Consider the ages and injury status of some of these players, we're not talking about 15 guys in their prime here. Isiah turned that into:

Jackie Butler
Jamal Crawford
Eddy Curry
Steve Francis
Channing Frye
Jerome James
David Lee
Stephon Marbury
Quentin Richardson
Nate Robinson
Jalen Rose
Malik Rose
Maurice Taylor
Ime Udoka
Qyntel Woods

The turn-around in "team talent" is remarkable, where we shouldn't be so dependant on one or two guys. This is a deep team on paper with a nice mix of veterans and youth. If Isiah would just show some regard for salary cap implications and the importance of defense now. With that said, he's done ok, but is on thin ice in my mind.

His moves draft night moves (which I expect) and anything done prior to camp will be key. Drafting is Isiah's specialty; I'd like to reserve judgement, just in case he pulls a rabbit out of a hat for us. One more blunder and he's sent packing though..

Not a valid arguement. At least Laydens teams overachieved. If we overachieved, we would actually be a good team, but we have guys who don't work hard and have had bad reps their whole careers, yet Isiah keeps on bringing them in. That's all on Isiah.

Will the Brown haters please not step in b/c this has nothing to do with him.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Nalod
Posts: 71931
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
6/21/2006  1:23 PM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by gr33d:
Posted by Nalod:

HE turned a crappy roster who played with heart into the laughing stock of the league.

On paper we look good. The payroll is the highest ever!

Look, if you hate Larry, so be it. We all have our views.

Demonize larry and try to discredit his history. At the same time, Cannonize Isiah when most write he did a so-so job with his pacer team. His teams started the years strong and melted down in the second half. why? Why was he fired? Why did he not get a coaching job afterwards?

Before you go on about how he saved our team with the roster changes, why is it the rest of the world considers us the laughing stock of the sporting world?

I don't hate Larry, in fact I was all in favor of bringing him aboard. Nor do I judge his past success or failures with other teams, I'm concentrating on the NOW. The NOW for me, is that Larry can't co-exist with our current roster imo. He underestimated the power of the NY press and made rookie-coach mistakes. We underacheived last year and Larry was directing traffic, bottom line!

I don't believe roster changes saved us. Isiah is one thin ice, I stated that earlier.

Let's say we were under the cap now and had the first pick in the draft. What superstar free-egent and lottery pick would turn this thing around? LOL, we'd be just good enough to NOT have a shot at Oden next year, that's where we'd be. Timing has a lot to do with being successful, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know if IT is the long-term solution, but I'm not convinced Larry is either. And honestly, I don't care what Knick haters think of the team, screw them! Every team makes mistakes at some point, yet we're used as the league-wide examples. Everything we do is under a microscope, what else is new?

With all do respect, the NOW you speak of has been the instant gradification problem Dolan is forever trying to acomplish. Larry ate a 23 season for a reason. This team would not have done all that much better if we had another coach. its possible the rookies might not have played as much and we might have imploded even worse. Its not a given we were a 35 win team. IF Larry was about a foundation then we had to dig deeper to anchor one then orginally thought. Dolanites want quick results and the appearences everything is fine no matter how weak the underlying structure is.

Foundation? wanting the likes of Ratcliff and Snow? It could also be possible that they would won more than 35 games. This is Larry Brown, he loves every other player in league as long as they are not on his team.

Typical default to the "radcliff and Snow" thing.

First off, Snow would be a good addition to this team.

Second, it did not happen.

knicks' debacle full of irony, blame (article)

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy