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Interesting article about the new rules changing the game aka never been a better time to fire Larry
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crzymdups
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5/18/2006  11:09 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060517
Now? You don't have to stop -- you can run over, pretend you're setting a high screen and basically careen into the defender. You can pretend to stop and continue moving your feet to sideswipe the defender as he's stepping around you (a Tyson Chandler specialty). You can even set a screen, make a 180-degree turn, chase the defender, then clip him with a moving pick a second time (a Yao Ming classic). All of these moves are legal in a wink-wink way. Boris Diaw raised it to another level -- instead of setting the screen on Nash's defender, sometimes he runs next to Nash, then quickly cuts toward the basket and "accidentally" picks off Nash's defender at full speed, almost like a wide receiver cutting across the field and picking off someone else's cornerback.



I know this all sounds mildly confusing, but the high screen has become the single most important play in basketball. Four teams execute it correctly (by bending the fake rules that aren't actually in place): Phoenix, Dallas, San Antonio and Detroit. Gee, what do those four teams have in common? And while we're here, if you ever wondered how Steve Nash played for eight years and never even made second-team All-NBA, then became a two-time MVP in the blink of an eye, it wasn't just because of his hair and his skin color, or because he found a coach who understood how to build a team around him. Nash took advantage of the aforementioned rules that made penetrating guards just as valuable as reliable low-post scorers (as we're seeing in this year's playoffs with Nash, Wade, Harris & Terry, Parker, Hinrich, Billups, even an old-timer like Sam Cassell).



Thanks to those rules, SmallBall has taken over the Western Conference playoffs this spring. Avery Johnson realized after one game that Dallas could beat the Spurs only by playing two point guards (Harris and Jason Terry) and exploiting San Antonio's shoddy perimeter defense; eventually, Gregg Popovich had no choice but to go small himself (even Big Shot Brob is riding the pine). The Suns-Clips series turned into a splendid SmallBall contest in Games 4 and 5, with the notable exception of the Chris Kaman parts (it's simply the wrong series for him, something Mike Dunleavy will probably realize around Game 12). Coincidentally -- or maybe, not coincidentally -- these have been two of the most entertaining and electric playoff series of the decade.

Which raises the million-dollar questions ...

Is this where we're headed? Are teams better off building for SmallBall over a conventional style? If you can play only five players, and you don't have an above-average center on your roster -- which most teams lack, by the way -- why not just play your best five guys regardless of position?

Really interesting article, but reading this clip made me think - we have two of the best dribble penetration guards in the league (I'm talking Marbury and Craw and assuming we ditch Francis). Why is it a bad thing to have that with the new rules? Then I think about how Brown hardly called a screen and role all year, he called them, but a lot of teams run them almost exclusively - Marbury is many bad things, but he is one of the best pick and roll PGs in the world. Larry didn't use it.

The new handcheck and illegal defense rules, as well as how loosely they're calling moving screens. This team should be running screen and rolls with Marbury, Crawford, Frye, Nate, Qyntel, Qrich. The roster isn't mis-matched. The coach was over-matched, trying to play a style that doesn't work anymore. He wouldn't go zone EVER. I've watched 80% of the playoffs and teams go zone when they need to and get a few stops. Worse, he didn't understand how offensively devastating this team could, he's too worried about finding George Lynch 2 and Eric Snow 2. The rules have changed the game, opened it up. We have a team that can take advantage of it with a few tweaks.
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McK1
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5/18/2006  11:23 AM
difference between those teams and Ny's

they have point guards who get in the lane and look to PASS FIRST

they have bigs who when they catch the ball can put it on the floor and make a play vs just being able to make a jumpshot.

even when KT was playing, D' Antoni and Nash preferred running the high screen with Diaw. KT was a checkdown

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 11:23 AM]
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martin
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5/18/2006  11:24 AM
I think your analysis is oversimplified.

Who is going to set the picks? Curry? He can't hit an outside shot and also can't set a legal pick half the time. It would take him out of his low post office. Frye? Seems logical but his pick-setting was only so-so too.

Pick-and-roll is not that straight-forward and you have almost a million options after the pick is set that both the picker and setter have to be aware of. Frye doesn't have the experience yet. Who else is going to be a part of that with the Marb/Francis?

This is still about defense and getting rebounds. Running the pick and roll as well as defending the pick and roll.
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crzymdups
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5/18/2006  11:53 AM
Posted by martin:

I think your analysis is oversimplified.

Who is going to set the picks? Curry? He can't hit an outside shot and also can't set a legal pick half the time. It would take him out of his low post office. Frye? Seems logical but his pick-setting was only so-so too.

Pick-and-roll is not that straight-forward and you have almost a million options after the pick is set that both the picker and setter have to be aware of. Frye doesn't have the experience yet. Who else is going to be a part of that with the Marb/Francis?

This is still about defense and getting rebounds. Running the pick and roll as well as defending the pick and roll.

It's somewhat simplified, but bottom line - you have to play to your strengths and I think we all agree that Marbury is at his best running pick and rolls, pick and pops. Marbury used to get most of his assists off the drive and dish. Frye is excellent at setting picks and can always free himself up for a jumper off that play. I'd like to see QRich and Marbury running some screen and rolls together. I'd like to see Curry in more pick and rolls. I can't even remember seeing Lee in a pick and roll scenario all season.

I think our main need in the draft is a defensive PF, but also a 6'8" SF who can run screen and rolls in the Diaw/James Jones mold.

I'm just saying play to the strengths. Obviously we have defensive holes, but I also said Brown NEVER played Zone ONCE all season. Dallas, Phoenix, Clippers, Detroit, Miami all slip into the zone to slow down the opposing team and end a run. It's a different look that you give someone for three or four possessions in a row to disrupt their rhythm. Brown doesn't believe in it.

It just seems like he is unwilling to change his style and adapt to the new rules or his roster's strengths. You think Brown would do a good job with the current PHX roster? I don't. He is locked into one way of playing. Obviously, Zeke catches plenty of blame for bringing in Brown to add legitimacy when it was a horrible roster fit. Look at Washington. I think our talent level is just as good or better than Washington's. Difference? Washington allows Arenas to freelance and S&R to death and they use the zone liberally to make themselves tricky on defense and tough on offense.

I'm not saying we'll win 50 games if we play to our strengths, but 40-45 should not be out of the question.
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crzymdups
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5/18/2006  11:57 AM
Posted by McK1:

difference between those teams and Ny's

they have point guards who get in the lane and look to PASS FIRST

they have bigs who when they catch the ball can put it on the floor and make a play vs just being able to make a jumpshot.

even when KT was playing, D' Antoni and Nash preferred running the high screen with Diaw. KT was a checkdown

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 11:23 AM]

McK, I agree, I think our biggest need is a 6'8 swingman who can run a high S&R. But I'd also like to see how Qrich and DLee look in that scenario, especially with Curry waiting in the low post if someone overcommits.

I just think a coach who was inventive on offense would be able to make this team a nightmare. Instead, Brown forced a small team to play pound it inside ball and we led the league in turnovers. Really, the worst part of our defense was the constant fastbreaks other teams got off our constant turnovers. You can't blame Marbury and Crawford for that, our turnovers skyrocketed under Brown's backwards offense.
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McK1
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5/18/2006  12:08 PM
agree Lee could be deadly in the screen roll especially as his ability to catch and shoot improves

-----

Curry played screen roll and got dunks when the lane opened. the problem with Ed is when its not open what is he ging to do? the guy just doesn't think fast enough. Either a bad shot or offensive foul is sure to follow. Defenses adjust very quick in the NBA so how real an option is the screen roll with Curry?

and NY isn't a small team

Is there another roster with more big men over 250 pounds?

as for guards Q is bigger than most and Steph because of his strength and build is at his best getting inside to finish
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rvhoss
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5/18/2006  12:47 PM
I think the drive and sish and S&R's are the knicks strengths and the zone defense masks our greatest weakness...All nonexistent this last year.

Marbs loves getting in the paint, and while you think he doesn't look to pass first, I believe you need to look at the style of play...you can shoot until the other team committs to stopping you (marbs), or you can pass until other teams give you an open look (nash) both are the same in my book.

To say you prefer pass first is a matter of preference, I prefer the jordan point guard that handles the ball the entire time and forces the other team to stop him opening up opportunities for others.

It's just how I like it...different strokes for different folks.

This team is built around that principal IMHO.

Stop our Combo PG/SG's from getting into the paint by collapsing, if you leave him in single coverage, we will score or go to the line, otherwise it's a dunk or a 3 pointer or mid range jumper.

QRich, Curry, Frye are beneficiaries to Craw and Marbs ability to breakdown the defense...again, this personell is perfectly suited for this type of offense.

If you want to go the other way, then you have to trade all 5 players brown wants to trade, and I ask you, which is easier?

Not sure, but brown definitely set the entire franchise back last year where there was hope (see everyone's preseason posts), now there is nothing but dispair and everyone is saying that only 5 or 6 of us like the current knicks...well, I beg to differ.

The one thing this board has proven, if you are homer, you are gonna get teamed up on, bashed and personally attacked.

So why post positivity if it falls on deaf ears?

Because I love the knicks.
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McK1
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5/18/2006  1:24 PM
Posted by rvhoss:


Marbs loves getting in the paint, and while you think he doesn't look to pass first, I believe you need to look at the style of play...you can shoot until the other team committs to stopping you (marbs),

or you can keep your head up and dribble alive in order to be able to make the quick pass and make everybody a potential threat like Nash Kidd Paul Ford Parker Cassell Felton Ridnour Williams Nelson Davis Terry Bibby Arenas Wade and Lebron when they play point...

Marbury attacks the rim like a 2 guard - tucking the ball and his head. Many other points in the league KEEP THEIR DRIBBLE ALIVE IN THE PAINT and KEEP ALL FIVE OF THEIR OPTIONS OPEN



[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 1:24 PM]

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 2:25 PM]
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simrud
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5/18/2006  1:32 PM
The way they call these "rules" is all by repuatation. They let big name players, or players on really good teams set illegal picks. The Knicks get called for 4 illegal picks a game as it is. They have no respect, and in todays NBA that is where all the calls, both ways come from.

Did you see that blatant loose ball faul on Wallace last night when he tacked Bron trying to a get rebound of his back? No call cause Wallace is allowed to do that because of his rep.

The best teams get the calls, and a team that is the running joke of the leage doesnt.
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crzymdups
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5/18/2006  3:49 PM
sure, the Knicks aren't going to get the benefit of the calls til they start winnnig - but that doesn't mean that the screen and roll is any less important. the actual rules about not touching the perimeter player at all with your hands makes the S&R damn near impossible to defend.

and there's no excuse not to use the zone at least occassionally.
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EnySpree
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5/18/2006  5:48 PM
The knicks have the perfect team to run screens and go back door.

Curry can't shoot but he can sure dunk and score on the move inside. instead of rolling out he can role in. Frye can roll in and out. Q-rich and woods can go back door like crazy.

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PhilinLA
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5/18/2006  6:11 PM
crzymdups, this is as good a point as I have ever read over here. This team was built for pick and roll and we didn't run it.
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newyorknewyork
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5/18/2006  6:50 PM
GREAT find crzymdups. Almost wants me to take back what I said about Isiah just before.

Marbury & Crawford are two of the best penitrating guards in the league. But they were reduced to almost nothing last season.

Look when we went on the six game win streak. Marbury & Crawford dominated. Marbury(19)-Crawford(17.5)-Nate(8) attempts. Averaged 44.5 shot attempts in that 6 game win streak. Frye-Lee-Curry-Taylor were getting easy easy looks off that.

Fyre put up 15pts on 56% shooting
Curry put up 17pts on 57% shooting
Lee put up 8.6pts on 83% shooting
Taylor put up 9.6pts on 52% shooting

And because of the success on offense they were able to be in better position on defense. We weren't built to be a shut down defense and thrive off of the defense turn into offense. We were built to thrive on offense to help the defense. All we needed to do was be able to play great defense, when we had to get those stops. That I do think we could have been cappable depending on who was in.

Last season with Lenny and Herb allowed Marbury & Crawford to do there thing and we were competitive almost every game. Yes we won 33 games. But again I think Injuries had more to do with that causing a horrible month of what 2-17 or something like that. Take away that month and we would have been in the playoff hunt. I think the lack of versatility as players with Muhammad & KT & Sweetney while it didn't set us back. It did stunt the growth of how effective the dynamic backcourt could be off the pick and roll and screens. I mean if those guys were able to put the ball on the floor or mix it up, & have a little more athletism. Then it would have really openned up that pick and roll/screens type of style. Look at the versatility of Stoudemire, Marion, Diaw the last 2 seasons in the frontcourt at the PF/C positions with Nash. Or the versatility of Sheed in Detroit. Or Horry & Duncan in S.A. Or Nowitzki in Dallas.

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 05-18-2006 6:53 PM]
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McK1
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5/18/2006  6:58 PM
Crawford being depicted here as one of the best penetrating guards is laughable considering those fallway long 2's and 3 pointers were his preferred shot despite coach after coach urging him to take the ball to the f-ing rim.

Crawford was terrible last season. NOONE could figure out how to play with him. He wouldcreate space for those stupid ass shots. It was the same thing in Chicago. Thts why they drafted Kirk.

Under Brown if he wanted to be a jumpshooter he had to learn to come off screens. He finished this season with the best fg% in his 4 years of getting significant PT and shots.

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 7:03 PM]
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newyorknewyork
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5/18/2006  7:12 PM
He isn't a Marbury type of driver, but he does beat everyone off the dribble. He just doesn't take it to the rack like Marbury. He pulls up for jumpers. A lot of his off balanced shot last season were at the end of the shotclock. But he definatly needs to keep working on that.

Bottom line is Marbury & Crawford are the most effecitve offensive players we have. And that pick and roll, screen style on offense is perfect for them. #1 they haven't perfected it, with experience in it they can. #2 they had good teammates for it, but they weren't the versatile teamates that would have made it take off. I think Frye can excell in that style, and if David Lee formed a 15fter he would to, but he can put it on the floor and take it to the rack and has the athletism to cut to the basket quickly. Curry can get most of his off of put backs and tip ins. He isn't ready to be a one on one post up guy yet.

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 05-18-2006 7:12 PM]

[Edited by - newyorknewyork on 05-18-2006 7:14 PM]
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McK1
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5/18/2006  7:31 PM
I would hate to see this team turned once again into the Marbury-Crawford chuckfest.

injuries wasn't the major factor that led to the 33 wins. it was the one dimensional nature of the offense. with steph and Craw calling their own number on the screen roll it was easy for teams to make adjustments from qtr 1 to 4. neither are particularly aware ball-handlers or creative playmakers.

this past season crawford coming off screens actually looked like a basketball player.

He is playing like Ray Rip and such. Just needs a post-game.

His ability to come off screens and shoot spreads the floor.

JC's touch

PLUS

A point guard who can actually anticipate out there

PLUS

bigs who can

set good screens

read a defense

would set this team's offense ablaze


the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
newyorknewyork
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5/18/2006  7:50 PM
Posted by McK1:

I would hate to see this team turned once again into the Marbury-Crawford chuckfest.

injuries wasn't the major factor that led to the 33 wins. it was the one dimensional nature of the offense. with steph and Craw calling their own number on the screen roll it was easy for teams to make adjustments from qtr 1 to 4. neither are particularly aware ball-handlers or creative playmakers.

this past season crawford coming off screens actually looked like a basketball player.

He is playing like Ray Rip and such. Just needs a post-game.

His ability to come off screens and shoot spreads the floor.

JC's touch

PLUS

A point guard who can actually anticipate out there

PLUS

bigs who can

set good screens

read a defense

would set this team's offense ablaze

Marbury called KTs number a lot. Muhammad was putting up great #s off of the pressure Marbury & Crawford were putting on the defense. I agree with you that Marbury & Crawford looked for themsevles more than others. Which means more than just passing it to KT for the pop, he should use the screens to look for others to. Which is what I mean't by saying they didn't perfect the style, but they were good at it. If they would get a better understanding, as well as if they had the biggs with more versatility. Then that style would have definatly took off. Lenny Wilkens might of been bringing them along slowly. Marbury looked like an assist machine with KVH & Doleac.
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McK1
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5/18/2006  8:01 PM
Steph was calling KT to set the screen and Nazr was getting tipbacks mostly, same as Curry.

we all I think know what they should do. We all seen what they are capable of. why waste more time trying to turn guys into something they are not?

If Steph is going nowhere, get a real point and use him like NJ uses Vince.

Bring Crawford off the pine as designated sniper and keep this **** moving.

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 8:02 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
newyorknewyork
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5/18/2006  8:19 PM
KT had a TON of jumpers based on the pick and roll with Marbury. Dunleavy called it one of the best in the NBA when they both dropped 30 each on the clippers.

We may agree to disagree here but I think Marbury is cappable. I think he needs more communication about how to run the style and perfect it. We allways assume Marbury just doesn't want to do it. But we don't have one clue of how much he understands about how to run it. We also don't have one clue on how much effort was put in making him understand. And how many coachs thought just like you. Marbury doesn't have to be Steve Nash or Jason Kidd. Just make his 20-8 more of an impact for the team. Maybe turning that into 18-9.
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McK1
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5/18/2006  8:44 PM
I'm betting on him not having a clue how to run it.

and we also don't know how much self improvement comes on Steph's part

how much time does he spend watching and breaking down film?

how much time does he look to spend with the coaches going over the playbook and strategy on O?

how much time does he spend working wih other teammates?

the story that came out about how he echoed Lenny's remarks, added his own rah-rah to it then went and got a massage while the rest of the team took the practice floor doesn't paint a good picture.

[Edited by - McK1 on 05-18-2006 8:44 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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Interesting article about the new rules changing the game aka never been a better time to fire Larry
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