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[Article] Disgrace grows at Garden
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McK1
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3/30/2006  11:00 AM
Knicks turn in another debacle
by Mitch Lawrence

In lieu of giving us a meaningful game between two winning teams in the heat of a playoff race -what they had over at the Meadowlands, those lucky Jersey folks - we got a dead Knicks team and a Celtics club on life support at the Garden last night.
So maybe it was good that they trotted out a bunch of old Knicks and Celtics for what was billed as "Hall of Famers and Legends night." Looking at Cornbread Maxwell, you could at least think back to the good old days when the Celtics played deep into spring. Looking at Micheal Ray Richardson, you could at least think about another Knick ship that sank to the bottom of the deep, blue sea.

Even on a night when they brought out a few old stars and New York basketball legends, the Knicks couldn't hide the fact that the present is as bad as it's ever been at the Garden. The Celtics, nowhere near a legitimate playoff team, won for only the 30th time this season but still moved to within three games of eighth-place Philly, as the Knicks mailed in yet another game.

How many is that now? There have been too many to count. This 123-98 loss was just the latest in a long line of games in which the Knicks simply disgraced themselves.

"As I told the team, maybe we'll walk the ball up the rest of the year and call a play every time, so the other team can't score 120 points and shoot 57%," Larry Brown said after the troops laid down at the opening tip and never got up off the floor.

"Show some heart!" yelled one fan behind the Knicks' bench during the third quarter.

This bunch? Never. Isiah Thomas has assembled the biggest collection of quitters and losers to ever put on the Knicks uniform.

"They have a collection of names," Boston coach Doc Rivers said. "Like Raef (LaFrentz) said, they might be the best worst team ever."

That's what LaFrentz said before he and the other Celtics starters all easily reached double figures by the end of the third quarter. The only upset is that the Celts didn't go for 140. But that's only because Rivers had only one starter on the floor in the fourth, when Boston's reserves went for 19 points. Just like the championship years, they still don't have a bench in Boston.

"When a team is that far down in the dumps, you hate to see that," LaFrentz said afterward. "Guys are fighting with each other. They're not going in the same direction. They've got a lot of talent and a great coach. Whether the two can coexist, I don't know."

We're pretty sure they can't. They've played 70 games - 85% of the season - which is a pretty good sample. They're 19-51. That's why Thomas has another rebuilding job to do this summer. Lots of luck getting rid of even one of these guys.

Brown isn't headed out the door, even if half the NBA thinks he'll engineer an exit because he knows he can't win here and things are too screwed up even for him. But without a change in personnel, we're going to see the same problems next season.

Don't think a training camp will solve anything, either. Brown admitted afterward that he's been saying the same elementary things for 70 games and still, no one is listening. Things like getting his forwards to run the passing lanes. Things like who goes where when they're setting up their offense. Things like matching up on foul shots.

In 30-plus years of coaching, he's never had a team refuse to do what he wants, not to this extent. It's like he's got a team of 12 Stephon Marburys.

"It blows my mind," he said. "It's mind-boggling."

They're just going through the motions. Running. Jumping. Making themselves look busy. "Trying to invent plays," Brown said. Of course, it all shows on the defensive end.

"I hope we get players in here who want to defend," Brown said. "And keep the ones who make that a priority."

In that case, they'll be keeping no one.

"If you make a lot of changes in this league and even if they can play, it takes time for it to work," Rivers said about his old team. "Then when you start losing, the snowball starts. I don't care who you are, it's tough to turn around. I would hate to see them next year, even if they make no changes. I would bet you that they'd be much better."

OK, Doc: You're on.



the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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OasisBU
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3/30/2006  1:18 PM
Wow.

So my question to some of the older Knicks fans - has it ever been this bad?

I became a fan on my 14th Birthday - Jan of 1994 when I went to my first NBA game to see the Knicks vs. Celtics. I cant remember it ever being this dark.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Nalod
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3/30/2006  1:33 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

Wow.

So my question to some of the older Knicks fans - has it ever been this bad?

I became a fan on my 14th Birthday - Jan of 1994 when I went to my first NBA game to see the Knicks vs. Celtics. I cant remember it ever being this dark.


Our worst record was a 21 win season I think in 1961-62. Way before my time, but as Ritchie Guiren said yesterday there was only 10 teams in the league which made it very competitive.

While I think its dark, the unsual aspect is while we don't have the big draft pick, and in reality there is no clear franchise player in college (im sure in 3 years time we'll think differently), we have some nice pieces and a pretty good coach.

Good article today in the Ledger about Michigan cast offs Rose-Mo T(was banned from the campus for 10 years!) and Jamal. WE have three whom ran afoul at that school. Not the kind of pilars of society we really can build around.

Point, we ahve some bad seeds on this club that need to be gone with.
rvhoss
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3/30/2006  1:33 PM
hey...you forgot to bold one last point that doc rivers made:

"If you make a lot of changes in this league and even if they can play, it takes time for it to work," Rivers said about his old team. "Then when you start losing, the snowball starts. I don't care who you are, it's tough to turn around. I would hate to see them next year, even if they make no changes. I would bet you that they'd be much better."

[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-30-2006 7:34 PM]
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McK1
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3/30/2006  2:43 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

hey...you forgot to bold one last point that doc rivers made:

"If you make a lot of changes in this league and even if they can play, it takes time for it to work," Rivers said about his old team. "Then when you start losing, the snowball starts. I don't care who you are, it's tough to turn around. I would hate to see them next year, even if they make no changes. I would bet you that they'd be much better."

[Edited by - rvhoss on 03-30-2006 7:34 PM]

no I didn't.

the all we need is a training camp banner rode off with the 49 loss 04-05 team
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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3/30/2006  4:07 PM
I remember the years right before Patrick. Ed "the Animal" Bannister, "jammin" James Bailey. Pat Cummings. Rory Sparrow. Horrible teams but they played hard every night and never blamed the coach. What makes this team so maddening is that they come out and don'[t play hard and then turn around and blame the coach. And then some fans actually defend this behavior. I hate it!!!
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Pharzeone
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3/30/2006  4:33 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I remember the years right before Patrick. Ed "the Animal" Bannister, "jammin" James Bailey. Pat Cummings. Rory Sparrow. Horrible teams but they played hard every night and never blamed the coach. What makes this team so maddening is that they come out and don'[t play hard and then turn around and blame the coach. And then some fans actually defend this behavior. I hate it!!!

Well I think it started from training camp, to this notion that coach didn't have a set starting line up. That's Brown biggest failings. All of his players this season admit to being confused about his rotation which he still hasn't justified. Then the influx of Rose and Francis. WTF, is Brown's issue with Francis, why did he want him here? The same as Rose? Get Marbury out of here and there are still 14 other players who quit on this coach.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
fishmike
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3/30/2006  4:38 PM
hell... I remember Houston, Spree, Ward, Eisley, Anderson, Harrington, Spoon and Kurt playing their butts off to 37 wins for Don Chaney. They never complained about no McDyess. They just played hard every night. Every night they got killed in the paint, out rebounded, out blocked and were on the wrong side of a 2:1 FT ratio. 37 freakin wins. I was actually proud of that team. They were #1 in the league in 3's, 3 point %, and fewest TOs and that kept them in it most nights. Then you had Duck Chaney. Its pretty wild huh?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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3/30/2006  4:40 PM
Posted by fishmike:

hell... I remember Houston, Spree, Ward, Eisley, Anderson, Harrington, Spoon and Kurt playing their butts off to 37 wins for Don Chaney. They never complained about no McDyess. They just played hard every night. Every night they got killed in the paint, out rebounded, out blocked and were on the wrong side of a 2:1 FT ratio. 37 freakin wins. I was actually proud of that team. They were #1 in the league in 3's, 3 point %, and fewest TOs and that kept them in it most nights. Then you had Duck Chaney. Its pretty wild huh?

that team was the reason i started getting full season tickets. i saw them play hard and that's all i wanted.
bobs3304
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3/30/2006  4:44 PM
^ Which is why we need to get rid of the primadonnas......
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Pharzeone
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3/30/2006  5:08 PM
Posted by fishmike:

hell... I remember Houston, Spree, Ward, Eisley, Anderson, Harrington, Spoon and Kurt playing their butts off to 37 wins for Don Chaney. They never complained about no McDyess. They just played hard every night. Every night they got killed in the paint, out rebounded, out blocked and were on the wrong side of a 2:1 FT ratio. 37 freakin wins. I was actually proud of that team. They were #1 in the league in 3's, 3 point %, and fewest TOs and that kept them in it most nights. Then you had Duck Chaney. Its pretty wild huh?

LOL, why did that team play their butts off to compete in a weak East Conference. I remembered just the opposite, they constantly complained about no McDyess which was unfair to him because it turned him into a messiah. Hell I remember when the guy finally made his start, you actually felt like he was going to walk on water because he was so hyped up by coach, GM and teammates. Chaney and Ladyden both blamed injuries for the Knicks failures. I also remember those teams giving up 15+ points leads in the 4th quarter. That team made me give up all but one of my season tickets because I couldn't get my friends to buy them anymore.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
franco12
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3/30/2006  5:31 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I remember the years right before Patrick. Ed "the Animal" Bannister, "jammin" James Bailey. Pat Cummings. Rory Sparrow. Horrible teams but they played hard every night and never blamed the coach. What makes this team so maddening is that they come out and don'[t play hard and then turn around and blame the coach. And then some fans actually defend this behavior. I hate it!!!

The good old days! Trent Tucker and Darrell Walker!

Hubie Brown.

I don't know. Maybe this team comes in next year and vows for things to be different. Players have to decide they want to win and not loose.
Bippity10
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3/30/2006  6:04 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bippity10:

I remember the years right before Patrick. Ed "the Animal" Bannister, "jammin" James Bailey. Pat Cummings. Rory Sparrow. Horrible teams but they played hard every night and never blamed the coach. What makes this team so maddening is that they come out and don'[t play hard and then turn around and blame the coach. And then some fans actually defend this behavior. I hate it!!!

Well I think it started from training camp, to this notion that coach didn't have a set starting line up. That's Brown biggest failings. All of his players this season admit to being confused about his rotation which he still hasn't justified. Then the influx of Rose and Francis. WTF, is Brown's issue with Francis, why did he want him here? The same as Rose? Get Marbury out of here and there are still 14 other players who quit on this coach.

Pharzeone: There's a guy on Uconn named Ed Nelson. At one point he was the ACC freshman of the year. He comes to Uconn expecting big minutes but gets none when he arrives. One day he gets 15 minutes the next night DNP. I know him personally and he complained vehemently about not knowing what his role was. Funny thing about Ed. Despite his complaints, despite his anger at coach, despite his confusion and not knowing his role, everytime that guy steps on the court he plays harder than anyone in the Big East. In a 5 minute stretch he will hit the floor 10 times diving for loose balls, tipping rebounds doing what it takes to help his team win despite his confusion with his role.

Not knowing your role can be confusing. I've been in that situation many times. It can be an excuse for poor play. I'll even give Steve francis that excuse right now. I think his poor play is a direct result of him not knowing where he fits. Fine let's concede that. But at what point in time does not knowing your role mean it's alright to quit on your team, the fans, your coach and most importantly yourself? And if you quit at what point are you going to earn minutes in order to get a consistent rotation and consistent minutes. In this instance as a coach I know what comes first. Unfortunately for us in Knickdom the fans don't have a clue and the players haven't figured it out either.

Ben Wallace, Raja Bell, Eric Snow, Allan Iverson, Matt Harpring etc. do not need to know their roles in order to play hard. Unfortunately all our guys need to know their roles and need to have systems designed for the good of their stats in order to work for their 75 bazillion dollar paychecks and yet you defend them. Amazing!!!

When are fans like you going to stop giving these guys excuses.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 03-30-2006 6:06 PM]
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tkf
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3/30/2006  6:40 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I remember the years right before Patrick. Ed "the Animal" Bannister, "jammin" James Bailey. Pat Cummings. Rory Sparrow. Horrible teams but they played hard every night and never blamed the coach. What makes this team so maddening is that they come out and don'[t play hard and then turn around and blame the coach. And then some fans actually defend this behavior. I hate it!!!


I remember those teams well, I can even go back to a time when Louis orr was our best player, I remember louis was holding out(contract) and we were losing games and the announcers were like pleading for management to get louis back on the team, I mean louis was a decent player, nothing special, but we were that bad, I mean bad, but even then, the guys played hard, just didn't have enough talent.... This team is the worst I have seen in my 25 years following the knicks..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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3/30/2006  6:46 PM
Posted by fishmike:

hell... I remember Houston, Spree, Ward, Eisley, Anderson, Harrington, Spoon and Kurt playing their butts off to 37 wins for Don Chaney. They never complained about no McDyess. They just played hard every night. Every night they got killed in the paint, out rebounded, out blocked and were on the wrong side of a 2:1 FT ratio. 37 freakin wins. I was actually proud of that team. They were #1 in the league in 3's, 3 point %, and fewest TOs and that kept them in it most nights. Then you had Duck Chaney. Its pretty wild huh?

hte funny thing is that people crucified Houston, but in hindsight, Houston was a leader, went out there and got the job done, I remember how people said he was a horrible defender, and then in the playoffs vs Indy, he chased Reggie miller around those picks all series, dogging him, hounding miller and then abusing him on the other end, miller is as tough mentally as they come, and Houston out played him, outside of Jordan, not many guys did that... Then I look at ward, a guy who never got served on defense the same with chris childs, these guys were not flashy, they just played, substance over style was their motto.... this team makes me long for the days of fat spoon, duck chaney and the 37 wins...

the image that bothers me most is when IT fired chaney and had him escorted by security out of the building, chaney didn't deserve that, and that should of told me all I needed to know about IT and his ways...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Pharzeone
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3/30/2006  6:59 PM
I just use that as one example of why some of the others just fizzle out. Caught up to them. Francis already went on record as saying he doesn't know his function on this team. After awhile all the jedi mind tricks begin to take its toll. My issue if it was just a Marbury thing that is fine but Brown has been mini brawls with nearly every player on this team at some point during the season. But new and old players to the roster. Riley earned respect, he doesn't have to tell someone to look at my resume. A person listen to him and see results, if it isn't working he doesn't pick at it until it does, he tries something else. Hey the Knicks quit on Nelson and played their asses off for JVG the same season. Don't know why, to me I just always sum stuff like that up to human nature. The most telling sign for me was when AD was traded and he faulted Brown for laying out a gameplan and have everyone on the same page. No doubt in my mind that Brown took any fun out of that team.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
McK1
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3/30/2006  8:33 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

I just use that as one example of why some of the others just fizzle out. Caught up to them. Francis already went on record as saying he doesn't know his function on this team. After awhile all the jedi mind tricks begin to take its toll. My issue if it was just a Marbury thing that is fine but Brown has been mini brawls with nearly every player on this team at some point during the season. But new and old players to the roster. Riley earned respect, he doesn't have to tell someone to look at my resume. A person listen to him and see results, if it isn't working he doesn't pick at it until it does, he tries something else. Hey the Knicks quit on Nelson and played their asses off for JVG the same season. Don't know why, to me I just always sum stuff like that up to human nature. The most telling sign for me was when AD was traded and he faulted Brown for laying out a gameplan and have everyone on the same page. No doubt in my mind that Brown took any fun out of that team.

where did AD blame Brown?

his "everyone isn't on the same page" and "its a circus" quotes seemed more a knock of the organization as a whole.

There are player on this team he probably wouldn't have wanted or wouldn't have picked - Isah Thomas on Larry Brown

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba_blog/the_day_in_quotes_allen_iverson_larry_brown_yao_ming_and_more___-ar25315.html

where the problem lies
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Bonn1997
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3/30/2006  10:20 PM
There are player on this team he probably wouldn't have wanted or wouldn't have picked
Yup; all the players under 28!
McK1
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3/30/2006  10:21 PM
you mean 29 which was James' age when Isiah signed him.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bippity10
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3/31/2006  3:14 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

I just use that as one example of why some of the others just fizzle out. Caught up to them. Francis already went on record as saying he doesn't know his function on this team. After awhile all the jedi mind tricks begin to take its toll. My issue if it was just a Marbury thing that is fine but Brown has been mini brawls with nearly every player on this team at some point during the season. But new and old players to the roster. Riley earned respect, he doesn't have to tell someone to look at my resume. A person listen to him and see results, if it isn't working he doesn't pick at it until it does, he tries something else. Hey the Knicks quit on Nelson and played their asses off for JVG the same season. Don't know why, to me I just always sum stuff like that up to human nature. The most telling sign for me was when AD was traded and he faulted Brown for laying out a gameplan and have everyone on the same page. No doubt in my mind that Brown took any fun out of that team.

That's the problem Pharzeone, LB should not have to earn respect. He has won. These players have not. It is there job to earn respect from him, not the other way around. If you can't listent to the coach and do waht he says, expect to be benched, bitched about and disrespected. Don't expect him to kiss your arse and give you minutes and reward you. Life does not work that way.

Good luck with your job Pharzeone :)
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[Article] Disgrace grows at Garden

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