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Allow Bip to explain the GM coach relationship to the uninformed
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Bippity10
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3/25/2006  2:08 AM
Successful teams do not pit the GM against the coach. Successful teams do not ask who's guy is Qyntel's? Is that Larry's guy or Isiahs? Successful teams don't get angry because the coach wants more say in personnel decisions. Successful teams realize that the GM and the Coach are on the same frigging team. It is the GM's job to hire the coach. It is the coach's job to tell the GM what type of players fit his style. It is the GM's job to then go out and get the right players for the coach. They are a team and we win when they are on the same page. It's ashame how many people don't understand this.

Do you think Bill Parcells would sit back and let a GM bring in players that he didn't feel he could coach. Why is it that every where he goes he turns over his roster? Why is it every where he goes he ends up with 5-10 of the same guys that have played with him every where he goes? Why is it that he consistently wins?

I have a dream that one day in NY we will stop pointing fingers and allow our GM and coach to work together to build a team. We need to change the culture of this team. There is no magic coach or player or GM that is going to come in here and turn us into Phoenix east over night. We must build. And it starts with Larry and ends with us looking at ourselves honestly and ridding ourselves of players that don't want to get on board. Or we could fire Larry because we are sad about this year and then start the whole thing over ONCE AGAIN with a new magic bean.

I just hope that people will like me
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Allanfan20
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3/25/2006  2:15 AM
We keep turning the team over and over again, not just with the coach, but the whole roster, and we always start off saying how we could possibly win 43 and end up losing 30. This year is no different, except we win 20. This losing environment is real depressing, and I am ashamed this is the Knicks. I just want all this poison out. The Knicks aren't winning a championship anytime soon. Might as well cleanse themselves. I am not sure if it's getting rid of everyone, getting rid of one person, or if it means we are truely doomed as basketball fans. I am just praying that this season is finally rockbottom and there's now nowheere to go but UP.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bippity10
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3/25/2006  2:26 AM
It's not about bad luck which is what Knick fans seem to think it is. We feel like something just isn't fair. But the reality is that we refuse to do what it takes to rebuild(and I'm not talking about draft picks). I'm talking about hiring a coach and letting that coach and GM build upon their vision together. When was the last time that happened? Chaney? That guy had no chance they were looking for a new coach the day he was hired. Of course he wasn't going to have clout with the players. Of course he was going to coach out of desperation instead of wisely, in order to save his job. He's human, his loyalty is to himself first, not the Knicks(fans forget this sometimes). He's going to do what it takes to prolong his job long enough so that he can then start to make moves that make sense for the Knicks. Of course this is a losing battle and coach's that are in this situation never survive, and their teams never win. then we hired Lenny and Herb did the same thing to them and then all the fans(except Bip) are shocked that we are struggling to win. Millionaire baby's like Marbury are not going to respect a coach that is a loss away from being fired.

Stability is the only way!!!!!!!!

LB is no idiot. He saw exactly what guys like Isles fan saw. He saw a talented team that had the ability to win games but was never going to be a successful team unless they were broken like in the Army. Career losers, lazy players and underachievers were running the place. He could not let that happen. Sure he could have and should have coached this team to more wins. He could have done a better job. But where would that have gotten us? 40 wins and a first round loss. Why are our goals so low? We knew the day that LB was hired a lot of guys had to go. The point of this season was to develop the young guys and teach lessons to those that will remain. Those that refuse to learn will be gone. And LB will hopefully (for all who think it's about bad luck) be the last man standing and be allowed to build a team with GM together. It's the only way.

There are a lot of very intelligent posters on this site. A ton of guys that know more than me. But very few that have built a program from scratch. I'm not saying I do it the perfect way but one thing I've learned is sometimes rock bottom is the best route.
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Bippity10
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3/25/2006  2:32 AM
By the way you can take my first paragraph above and substitute Isiah and Layden for Chaney, Wilkens and Williams and you will get the same answer. These two aren't idiots. They aren't great GM's but they aren't idiots. They know all their moves are risky. But they also know that if they rebuild they won't be around long enough through the losses to see the winning occur. Why would they build another man's castle. Instead the made moves out of desperation in order to prolong their jobs and hopefully strike it rich AND GET LUCKY. Again I don't blame either of them, their loyalty should be to themselves first and the Knicks second. If we want to change this approach we need to change the culture of finger pointing and blaming and scapegoating. It's such a simple step but as an organization we refuse to do it.

Winners blame themselves for their shortcomings and then fix them. Losers blame "systems". Right now we are an organization of losers. The owner is a loser, the GM is a loser the players are losers and we fans have hopped on the loser mentality. It's killing us.

I just hope that people will like me
holfresh
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3/25/2006  2:38 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Successful teams do not pit the GM against the coach. Successful teams do not ask who's guy is Qyntel's? Is that Larry's guy or Isiahs? Successful teams don't get angry because the coach wants more say in personnel decisions. Successful teams realize that the GM and the Coach are on the same frigging team. It is the GM's job to hire the coach. It is the coach's job to tell the GM what type of players fit his style. It is the GM's job to then go out and get the right players for the coach. They are a team and we win when they are on the same page. It's ashame how many people don't understand this.

Do you think Bill Parcells would sit back and let a GM bring in players that he didn't feel he could coach. Why is it that every where he goes he turns over his roster? Why is it every where he goes he ends up with 5-10 of the same guys that have played with him every where he goes? Why is it that he consistently wins?

I have a dream that one day in NY we will stop pointing fingers and allow our GM and coach to work together to build a team. We need to change the culture of this team. There is no magic coach or player or GM that is going to come in here and turn us into Phoenix east over night. We must build. And it starts with Larry and ends with us looking at ourselves honestly and ridding ourselves of players that don't want to get on board. Or we could fire Larry because we are sad about this year and then start the whole thing over ONCE AGAIN with a new magic bean.




Do you think Bill Parcells would sit back and let a GM bring in players that he didn't feel he could coach. Why is it that every where he goes he turns over his roster? Why is it every where he goes he ends up with 5-10 of the same guys that have played with him every where he goes? Why is it that he consistently wins?

I have a dream that one day in NY we will stop pointing fingers and allow our GM and coach to work together to build a team. We need to change the culture of this team. There is no magic coach or player or GM that is going to come in here and turn us into Phoenix east over night. We must build. And it starts with Larry and ends with us looking at ourselves honestly and ridding ourselves of players that don't want to get on board. Or we could fire Larry because we are sad about this year and then start the whole thing over ONCE AGAIN with a new magic bean.


[/quote]



Well Bip, if I may,...How successful has Bill Parcells been since he was given the task picking his own team?..He has never won a Championship....

It is clear that this current GM and coach are not on the same page...One guy wants to rebuild thru youth and the other wants vets who fits his style of play...nothing wrong with that, but they are not on the same page...This coach has gone to the press and destroyed the confidence of a few players on this team, even though the GM and owner ask him to stop this behavior...

You may be right about what it takes to be a successful team, but the idea that fans like myself who points out the obvious divergence of philosophy in this organization, some how don't understand what they are actually seeing is totally off base....Your definition of a successful may hold true however because it fits nothing thats is currently happening in this organization.....
Allanfan20
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3/25/2006  2:39 AM
I agree that finding rockbotton is the best way, but I'm just scared at how much more rockbottom there's going to be. I love the Knicks so much, but at the same time, I am so sick of the losing by 20 a night.

It's just hard to tell exactly what's good for this team. I'm with you that I hated ALMOST every move that Isiah has made, but also that it's perhaps to lead us somewhere, but how much more can one patient Knick fan take? Does the rest of the Knicks future lie on Channing's sprained knee and Curry's stomach? Or does it lie in trading Marbury and Francis? Or does it lie in us just completely changing everything about this team and getting rid of everything in this org, including Isiah, LB, Dolan, Mills, Marbury, Francis, Curry and all them.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
nykshaknbake
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3/25/2006  2:44 AM
So coach is the winner, both this season and any to come. Coach was the winner in the Olympics and did everything right but got stuck w/ losers like Duncan, AI and Lebron. Coach's leading the team to 20 victories is all part of some ingenious plan, but even then it was all everyone elses's fault if it happened. ANyway it's impossible to blame any system of LB's becuase this season he hasn't had one. a different lineup every game, making lots of turnovers, failing to teach D and blaming others in the press is not a system. I beleive he had a plan to start the season, but when faced w/ adversity became clueless and frustrated and thus a loser himself.

Let me ask you, was there any way that Larry could have done a poor job or anything he could have done that would have put him at fault this season in your eyes?
Posted by Bippity10:

By the way you can take my first paragraph above and substitute Isiah and Layden for Chaney, Wilkens and Williams and you will get the same answer. These two aren't idiots. They aren't great GM's but they aren't idiots. They know all their moves are risky. But they also know that if they rebuild they won't be around long enough through the losses to see the winning occur. Why would they build another man's castle. Instead the made moves out of desperation in order to prolong their jobs and hopefully strike it rich AND GET LUCKY. Again I don't blame either of them, their loyalty should be to themselves first and the Knicks second. If we want to change this approach we need to change the culture of finger pointing and blaming and scapegoating. It's such a simple step but as an organization we refuse to do it.

Winners blame themselves for their shortcomings and then fix them. Losers blame "systems". Right now we are an organization of losers. The owner is a loser, the GM is a loser the players are losers and we fans have hopped on the loser mentality. It's killing us.
rvhoss
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3/25/2006  7:03 AM
that's all we're asking, why is LB getting a free pass?

and don't give me that history crap, this year he's coached and acted like no other year in the past...over the summer, I think there will be a ton of soul searching on LB's part and next year he better come back with a coaching philosophy that works.

he's getting $12 million a year, or is it $8 million, or is it $10 million...heck, it's different every week.

One thing for sure, he's been as bad as everyother over paid knick we bash so much.

Did any of you see hoosiers? how did that crappy team win a championship...coaching. all the best sports movies are underachievers getting coaching...rocky, that movie with denzel, the list is endless.

LB, be legendary. Coach these losers to contention. For pete's sake.

And you guys stop defending this chump. He's done a crappy job this season, no ifs ands or buts.

Stop defending him, he's as culpable as the entire lot.

all kool aid all the time.
BasketballJones
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3/25/2006  10:53 AM
What's this "we" crap?
I have a dream that one day in NY we will stop pointing fingers and allow our GM and coach to work together to build a team. We need to change the culture of this team. There is no magic coach or player or GM that is going to come in here and turn us into Phoenix east over night. We must build. And it starts with Larry and ends with us looking at ourselves honestly and ridding ourselves of players that don't want to get on board. Or we could fire Larry because we are sad about this year and then start the whole thing over ONCE AGAIN with a new magic bean.

Who is "we" here? This sounds like stuff the organization should be doing. How have "we" not allowed our GM and coach to work together?

If we want to change this approach we need to change the culture of finger pointing and blaming and scapegoating. It's such a simple step but as an organization we refuse to do it.

I'd agree that the knicks need to change their losing culture. Whether the fans point fingers, blame, boo or whatever, would not be a significant factor if this organization had its act together.
Winners blame themselves for their shortcomings and then fix them. Losers blame "systems". Right now we are an organization of losers. The owner is a loser, the GM is a loser the players are losers and we fans have hopped on the loser mentality. It's killing us.

if the franchise got its act together, had a plan and followed it, we fans would magically change our "losing mentality".

I'm not saying fans are totally irrelevant, but really you make it sound like the fans are somehow to blame for this mess. The owner, gm and players have far more to do with the success or failure of this franchise than we do.



[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 03-25-2006 10:54]
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SlimPack
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3/25/2006  11:06 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Successful teams do not pit the GM against the coach. Successful teams do not ask who's guy is Qyntel's? Is that Larry's guy or Isiahs? Successful teams don't get angry because the coach wants more say in personnel decisions. Successful teams realize that the GM and the Coach are on the same frigging team. It is the GM's job to hire the coach. It is the coach's job to tell the GM what type of players fit his style. It is the GM's job to then go out and get the right players for the coach. They are a team and we win when they are on the same page. It's ashame how many people don't understand this.

Do you think Bill Parcells would sit back and let a GM bring in players that he didn't feel he could coach. Why is it that every where he goes he turns over his roster? Why is it every where he goes he ends up with 5-10 of the same guys that have played with him every where he goes? Why is it that he consistently wins?

I have a dream that one day in NY we will stop pointing fingers and allow our GM and coach to work together to build a team. We need to change the culture of this team. There is no magic coach or player or GM that is going to come in here and turn us into Phoenix east over night. We must build. And it starts with Larry and ends with us looking at ourselves honestly and ridding ourselves of players that don't want to get on board. Or we could fire Larry because we are sad about this year and then start the whole thing over ONCE AGAIN with a new magic bean.

it doesnt really matter anyway, becuase based on what Ive read in articles, brown and thomas are in synch with each other, and have a unifed goal. the problem is, will the so called "plan" of their's work? Isiah and brown should be given two more seasons to get there act together, If there arent any results by then, then Dolan would be doing more harm to this orginization by keeping them, then by cuasing istability by firing them. If that happens then dolan should definitely hire a GM that will rebuild. since appharently dolan doesnt mind the knicks sucking for a while.

[Edited by - slimpack on 03-25-2006 11:06 AM]
nyk4ever
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3/25/2006  11:10 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:

What's this "we" crap?
I have a dream that one day in NY we will stop pointing fingers and allow our GM and coach to work together to build a team. We need to change the culture of this team. There is no magic coach or player or GM that is going to come in here and turn us into Phoenix east over night. We must build. And it starts with Larry and ends with us looking at ourselves honestly and ridding ourselves of players that don't want to get on board. Or we could fire Larry because we are sad about this year and then start the whole thing over ONCE AGAIN with a new magic bean.

Who is "we" here? This sounds like stuff the organization should be doing. How have "we" not allowed our GM and coach to work together?

If we want to change this approach we need to change the culture of finger pointing and blaming and scapegoating. It's such a simple step but as an organization we refuse to do it.

I'd agree that the knicks need to change their losing culture. Whether the fans point fingers, blame, boo or whatever, would not be a significant factor if this organization had its act together.
Winners blame themselves for their shortcomings and then fix them. Losers blame "systems". Right now we are an organization of losers. The owner is a loser, the GM is a loser the players are losers and we fans have hopped on the loser mentality. It's killing us.

if the franchise got its act together, had a plan and followed it, we fans would magically change our "losing mentality".

I'm not saying fans are totally irrelevant, but really you make it sound like the fans are somehow to blame for this mess. The owner, gm and players have far more to do with the success or failure of this franchise than we do.



[Edited by - BASKETBALLJONES on 03-25-2006 10:54]

That's how your going to debate his whole entire post by pointing out the fact that he made it sound like he was part of the organization? Fan's tend to do that, refer to their favorite teams as we. That's petty stuff man.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 03-25-2006 11:10 AM]
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Marv
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3/25/2006  11:19 AM
Bip, you believe then that Isiah and Larry are working in tandem on this?

I don't . Here's why:

1. No GM would give up his own two #1's in a row if he expected his coach to "break down" the team to the tune of the league's worst record and give away 2 #1 OVERALLS consecutively. If you think they're in tandem on this strategy, please explain why. And if anyone wants to point out that next year's #1 standing isn't established yet, I say fine, but make your case as to why this team should be legitimately expected to be any better than what we're seeing now.

2. If Brown is playing the players that he's going to be keeping and "molding" the youngsters in the right culture, then why is Marbury getting any court time at all? If they were working in tandem, Larry would have told Isiah, get rid of Steph by the trading deadline. He's bringing everything that I'm trying to do down and he needs tor be out of this locker room now. You think they'e adding to Marbs' value by playing him like this now and Brown continually exposing him to the press (read this morning's Times)? How are they working in tandem on this?

3. What possible benefit is it to either of them to have Jalen and Stevie on the roster now? Do either of them look like "Larry Brown players" to you? Is Larry employing either of them like he thinks they're part of his plan going forward? Are either young so they can be "molded?"
BasketballJones
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3/25/2006  11:22 AM
That's how your going to debate his whole entire post by pointing out the fact that he made it sound like he was part of the organization? Fan's tend to do that, refer to their favorite teams as we. That's petty stuff man.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 03-25-2006 11:10 AM]

I understand this, but I dont think that's all he's doing. I think he's saying that the fans have some great influence on what happens with this team. Maybe I'm taking him too literally. If I'm wrong, he can clear it up.
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Bonn1997
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3/25/2006  11:43 AM
No GM would give up his own two #1's in a row if he expected his coach to "break down" the team to the tune of the league's worst record and give away 2 #1 OVERALLS consecutively. If you think they're in tandem on this strategy, please explain why. And if anyone wants to point out that next year's #1 standing isn't established yet, I say fine, but make your case as to why this team should be legitimately expected to be any better than what we're seeing now.
I thought the Curry trade happened before the Brown signing but I might be mistaken
djsunyc
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3/25/2006  11:58 AM
Posted by Marv:

Bip, you believe then that Isiah and Larry are working in tandem on this?

I don't . Here's why:

2. If Brown is playing the players that he's going to be keeping and "molding" the youngsters in the right culture, then why is Marbury getting any court time at all? If they were working in tandem, Larry would have told Isiah, get rid of Steph by the trading deadline. He's bringing everything that I'm trying to do down and he needs tor be out of this locker room now. You think they'e adding to Marbs' value by playing him like this now and Brown continually exposing him to the press (read this morning's Times)? How are they working in tandem on this?

marv, i think this is where the politics come in. i think you have guys on the team making max dollars. and as the owner, i could see dolan easily saying "hey, isiah, why aren't the guys i'm paying $15 mil a year playing?" isiah can't say b/c they suck b/c he's the one that convinced dolan to get him. so i'm sure lb is "encouraged" to play some of them. that's why the situation is a mess. lb doesn't want to but he sort of has to. that's why there's a real fear he may walk away this summer.
McK1
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3/25/2006  11:58 AM
the Curry trade happened at the start of training camp.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Pharzeone
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3/25/2006  2:05 PM
Posted by McK1:

the Curry trade happened at the start of training camp.

Yeah, Brown went further this week and said he doesn't care about losing the number one pick. He said he would take Curry over any of the so called top lottery picks this year. He singled out Morrison and JJ in particular. I thought it was a cheap shot personally.
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3/25/2006  2:36 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Marv:

Bip, you believe then that Isiah and Larry are working in tandem on this?

I don't . Here's why:

2. If Brown is playing the players that he's going to be keeping and "molding" the youngsters in the right culture, then why is Marbury getting any court time at all? If they were working in tandem, Larry would have told Isiah, get rid of Steph by the trading deadline. He's bringing everything that I'm trying to do down and he needs tor be out of this locker room now. You think they'e adding to Marbs' value by playing him like this now and Brown continually exposing him to the press (read this morning's Times)? How are they working in tandem on this?

marv, i think this is where the politics come in. i think you have guys on the team making max dollars. and as the owner, i could see dolan easily saying "hey, isiah, why aren't the guys i'm paying $15 mil a year playing?" isiah can't say b/c they suck b/c he's the one that convinced dolan to get him. so i'm sure lb is "encouraged" to play some of them. that's why the situation is a mess. lb doesn't want to but he sort of has to. that's why there's a real fear he may walk away this summer.

yeah, but i remember larry saying that he was never influenced to play any particular players. i doube he was lying, becuase if he was larry strikes me as the type of person to just say nothing about that, rather than lying about it.
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3/25/2006  4:20 PM
Parcells was given the power to bring in the type of players he wants in New England, NY (jets) & Dallas, that's why (the Giants was his 1st head coaching job so he obviously couldn't dictate terms there until he proved himself by leading them to winning 2 Super Bowls)... LB's trying to achieve the same here in NY... i have no problem w/a head coach having the powers of GM... i advocated the same when Isiah came in to be the GM of this franchise... i'd rather have 1 guy to be fully accountable for the team he has on the floor... i'm tired of the passing of blame from 1 guy to the other... let's get some accountability here for a change... enough of playing the blame game... let's start winning games... put LB in charge & let him get the players he wants... if he fails at it, at least you'll all be justified in bashing him.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-25-2006 4:21 PM]
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Bonn1997
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3/25/2006  4:35 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by McK1:

the Curry trade happened at the start of training camp.

Yeah, Brown went further this week and said he doesn't care about losing the number one pick. He said he would take Curry over any of the so called top lottery picks this year. He singled out Morrison and JJ in particular. I thought it was a cheap shot personally.
I remember that. When Isiah says something like that, people take cheap shots at him (not realizing that you have to boost your own players' confidence). A few certain posters here would each start new threads on how they don't want someone running the team who thinks Curry is better than the #1 pick of the draft. But it's Larry; so it's okay if his judgment leads him to state that he'd take Eddy over the #1 pick in this draft.

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