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Kidd & Marbury - A study in the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality
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TMS
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3/16/2006  2:53 PM
this example illustrates the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality.

Jason Kidd's line from last night:
0 pts. / 7 assists / 6 rebounds / 4 steals
W78 - 65
- not shown in the stats:
playing tough defense, being a leader on the floor, making his teammates better & willing his team to a victory

Mebury's stats from Mon. night:
25 pts. / 7 assists / 4 rebounds / 1 steal
L108-96
- not shown in the stats:
playing no defense, being preoccupied with getting his numbers instead of being a leader, playing too much 1 on 1 style basketball while his teammates are left out of the action & his team ends up losing as a result


The sad part of all this is, i bet Mebury would rather get the stats & blame the rest of his team not showing up for the loss, rather than not putting up the stats & his team getting the win... if this doesn't show what i'm talking about when i say this guy isn't the right fit for this team, i don't know what is.
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Pharzeone
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3/16/2006  3:01 PM
And VC.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
ultknicks524
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3/16/2006  3:02 PM
Kidd also has Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson and Nenad Krstic who scored 26, 22 and 20 points respectively. Marbury doesnt have anyone in the caliber of Carter, Jefferson and heck even a big man like Krstic.
martin
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3/16/2006  3:04 PM
I wish I had kept the exact quote... it was in SI in an article who featured Shawn Marion. Something like "Nash just gets you easier looks than Marbury. He makes the game easier for the guys around him."
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NYKBocker
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3/16/2006  3:16 PM
Posted by ultknicks524:

Kidd also has Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson and Nenad Krstic who scored 26, 22 and 20 points respectively. Marbury doesnt have anyone in the caliber of Carter, Jefferson and heck even a big man like Krstic.


You think Statbury will let those 3 get those numbers if he was the PG?
fishmike
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3/16/2006  3:18 PM
Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

Marbury and Kidd certainly have different styles but I agree... Kidd only cares about winning the game. Marbury does not play defense. Plain and simple. He hasnt since he's been here. He was very good at yelling at Nazr everytime he got beat off the dribble. That was always entertaining.

The problem with Marbury IMO (aside from the lack of D) is he dominates the ball too much. He can certainly create open looks for players but he doesnt orchestrate on offense. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Parker, Billups, and the other elite PGs run the offense for 5 guys. Marbury does it for 2. Now put Marbury with a star bigman and I think he's back to elite player status. He just doesnt fit on these kinds of teams, and isnt willing to change his style of play.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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3/16/2006  3:19 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

Marbury and Kidd certainly have different styles but I agree... Kidd only cares about winning the game. Marbury does not play defense. Plain and simple. He hasnt since he's been here. He was very good at yelling at Nazr everytime he got beat off the dribble. That was always entertaining.

The problem with Marbury IMO (aside from the lack of D) is he dominates the ball too much. He can certainly create open looks for players but he doesnt orchestrate on offense. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Parker, Billups, and the other elite PGs run the offense for 5 guys. Marbury does it for 2. Now put Marbury with a star bigman and I think he's back to elite player status. He just doesnt fit on these kinds of teams, and isnt willing to change his style of play.

cut, copy & paste, but this time "search & replace" marbury with francis.

we gotta move two guys this summer, not only one.
NYKBocker
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3/16/2006  3:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

Marbury and Kidd certainly have different styles but I agree... Kidd only cares about winning the game. Marbury does not play defense. Plain and simple. He hasnt since he's been here. He was very good at yelling at Nazr everytime he got beat off the dribble. That was always entertaining.

The problem with Marbury IMO (aside from the lack of D) is he dominates the ball too much. He can certainly create open looks for players but he doesnt orchestrate on offense. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Parker, Billups, and the other elite PGs run the offense for 5 guys. Marbury does it for 2. Now put Marbury with a star bigman and I think he's back to elite player status. He just doesnt fit on these kinds of teams, and isnt willing to change his style of play.

Excellent post. I compare Statbury's game to a dominant big man in the post that refuses to pass. That big man would make everyone just stand around and wait for things to happen similar to Statbury. Statbury wants his teammates to stand here and there and wait for his outstanding pass if his shot is not there.

Watch Nash play. The second he crosses the mid-court he is already passing and getting his teammates in motion. He is constantly moving and when he gets the ball back he attacks the basket to create for others.

Statbury will yoyo the basketball and then penetrate to score or dish.
Pharzeone
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3/16/2006  3:29 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

Marbury and Kidd certainly have different styles but I agree... Kidd only cares about winning the game. Marbury does not play defense. Plain and simple. He hasnt since he's been here. He was very good at yelling at Nazr everytime he got beat off the dribble. That was always entertaining.

The problem with Marbury IMO (aside from the lack of D) is he dominates the ball too much. He can certainly create open looks for players but he doesnt orchestrate on offense. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Parker, Billups, and the other elite PGs run the offense for 5 guys. Marbury does it for 2. Now put Marbury with a star bigman and I think he's back to elite player status. He just doesnt fit on these kinds of teams, and isnt willing to change his style of play.

Fish, Marbury's situation is complexing because you remember when he tried that a couple of games. The perfect example was the infamous Orlando game where he wouldn't take a shot, he just passed the ball. Then old pee bags went nuts, saying that was unacceptable, Fraizer screaming Marbury has to take the shots. It's sad if it ain't funny. The guy is damn if you do or damn if you don't. If Marbury plays lights out he is to blame for not getting other people the ball, if doesn't then he didn't step up. As far as Marbury not being successful like Kidd. Lets be honest both guys have been in the league for 10+ years and for all their hoopla, Kidd has only 3 sucessful years in my opinion in a 12 year career while Marbury has none. If I want to know what a winning PG knows about the game I would ask Tony Parker who seems to school both these chumps every chance gets.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Nalod
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3/16/2006  3:33 PM
Excellent post. I compare Statbury's game to a dominant big man in the post that refuses to pass. That big man would make everyone just stand around and wait for things to happen similar to Statbury. Statbury wants his teammates to stand here and there and wait for his outstanding pass if his shot is not there.

We had a word for that about 7 years ago. It was called "ewing"!


It would be interesting to see if Curry can develope with another distributer?

Minny=Siberia.

Exile him!
tkf
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3/16/2006  3:34 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

Marbury and Kidd certainly have different styles but I agree... Kidd only cares about winning the game. Marbury does not play defense. Plain and simple. He hasnt since he's been here. He was very good at yelling at Nazr everytime he got beat off the dribble. That was always entertaining.

The problem with Marbury IMO (aside from the lack of D) is he dominates the ball too much. He can certainly create open looks for players but he doesnt orchestrate on offense. Kidd, Nash, Paul, Parker, Billups, and the other elite PGs run the offense for 5 guys. Marbury does it for 2. Now put Marbury with a star bigman and I think he's back to elite player status. He just doesnt fit on these kinds of teams, and isnt willing to change his style of play.

Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

yea, I read that nonsense also, definately one to put in the mental rolodex for future refrence... LOL

anyway, good post, I agree marbs needs a Garnett, he needs to run pick and roll, a two man offense, he just can't run a 5 man offense...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
ultknicks524
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3/16/2006  3:46 PM
I said Marbury doesnt have a BIG MAN like Krstic. Only Frye is comparable to Krstic right now. Dont talk to me about Eddy Curry because he is a ****ing retard and Krstic schooled him the last time they played. You forget 11-11 from the field 23 points? I would take Krstic over that fat **** any day of the week.
oohah
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3/16/2006  3:53 PM
Marbury doesnt have guys like Krstic???? Did someone actually post that?

I said Marbury doesnt have a BIG MAN like Krstic. Only Frye is comparable to Krstic right now. Dont talk to me about Eddy Curry because he is a ****ing retard and Krstic schooled him the last time they played. You forget 11-11 from the field 23 points? I would take Krstic over that fat **** any day of the week.

Krstic is better than Curry. Curry is more talented physically no question, but Krstic is so much more skilled and intelligent on the court it isn't even funny. Krstic has improved steadily from Day 1 and I predict he will make at least one all-star team before he is done. Krstic is skinny and he doesn't play great defense, but he tries hard and so he is better than Curry defensively as well. As Krstic matures, his body will too. One wonders if Curry will ever improve his skills.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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3/16/2006  3:58 PM
By the way, I agree with the premise that Kidd is much more of a winning-type player than Marbury.

I also think Marbury jinxed himself by leaving Minnesota. Dumbest move ever.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
rvhoss
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3/16/2006  4:01 PM
has kidd won a championship while I was away?
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djsunyc
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3/16/2006  4:04 PM
Posted by rvhoss:

has kidd won a championship while I was away?

not everyone can win a championship but getting to the finals is not an easy task. all you can hope for is being a final 4 nba team and hope things go your way. very few win it all.
Pharzeone
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3/16/2006  4:14 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by rvhoss:

has kidd won a championship while I was away?

not everyone can win a championship but getting to the finals is not an easy task. all you can hope for is being a final 4 nba team and hope things go your way. very few win it all.

That's crap, no offense that goes for college but ask Patrick Ewing about that junk or any other player of his statue he hangs out with about that. Please don't start selling me that winning a weak Eastern Conference championship is the wonderful piece of achievement. Ewing has won on every other stage in life but he never won a championship as a player and you have many NBA experts saying that the guy was a loser. He had more playoff appearances than a Jason Kidd, more points, rebounds, and block shots. So Kidd goes to 2 finals, gets made too look bad in both finals, that should count for more.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
franco12
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3/16/2006  4:15 PM
I've been bashing Marbury with the rest of you Marbury bashers, but Marbury isn't, despite what he says or thinks, an elite point guard- he has his limitations and I would probably agree with him that he is best used in attacking the other team on offense and putting pressure on them.

He doesn't get team mates open looks like Nash & Kidd because he doesn't have their court vision- I don't think its because he is selfish and he wants to get his- his style is what it is- its a bit more street ball than a team oriented and you can't fault him for not being able to do things like Nash & Kidd.

I think Brown has, to an extent, misused Marbury.

That, however, doesn't excuse the fact that he can't/doesn't play defense.

If I was Brown, I would tell Marbury- yes, I'm not letting you play to the best of your talents and your going to sacrifice that to help establish team play. After that is in place, we'll work on getting the most out of your talents. And, Marbury, regardless of all that, you still don't play defense and if you don't, you'll sit.
djsunyc
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3/16/2006  4:18 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by rvhoss:

has kidd won a championship while I was away?

not everyone can win a championship but getting to the finals is not an easy task. all you can hope for is being a final 4 nba team and hope things go your way. very few win it all.

That's crap, no offense that goes for college but ask Patrick Ewing about that junk or any other player of his statue he hangs out with about that. Please don't start selling me that winning a weak Eastern Conference championship is the wonderful piece of achievement. Ewing has won on every other stage in life but he never won a championship as a player and you have many NBA experts saying that the guy was a loser. He had more playoff appearances than a Jason Kidd, more points, rebounds, and block shots. So Kidd goes to 2 finals, gets made too look bad in both finals, that should count for more.

who called ewing a loser? dude is referred to as the greatest knick of all time.

ewing couldn't get us over the top. marbury can't get us out of the bottom.

what are we talking about anyway? are we really trying to compare jkidd and marbury? why should we? are you right? am i right? who cares. one's guaranteed to make the hall of fame. one will be on E! true hollywood story. don't pay any attention to what i post about. just watch it all unfold.
oohah
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3/16/2006  4:19 PM
That's crap, no offense that goes for college but ask Patrick Ewing about that junk or any other player of his statue he hangs out with about that. Please don't start selling me that winning a weak Eastern Conference championship is the wonderful piece of achievement. Ewing has won on every other stage in life but he never won a championship as a player and you have many NBA experts saying that the guy was a loser. He had more playoff appearances than a Jason Kidd, more points, rebounds, and block shots. So Kidd goes to 2 finals, gets made too look bad in both finals, that should count for more.

Any expert who says Ewing is a loser is not an expert but in fact a moron.

Kidd getting to back to back finals was an achievement as well. He was the team and he deserved MVP. If Rod Thorn can pull one more good big man out of his hat the Nets are a contender as much as anyone.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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Kidd & Marbury - A study in the separation between a Winning & Losing mentality
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