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the vets on this team suck
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djsunyc
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2/9/2006  11:32 AM
i've had discussions with my friends about this almost daily but i think some of the reason for this circus atmosphere is because our vets suck. i think that's a reason why we're seeing these crazy rotations. i'm not trying to defend lb, i'm just trying to rationalize the situation.

i think lb said from the get go that we would start the vets and slowly incorporate the rooks towards the end of december. i think the problem was that our vets just blow chunks. so in trying to win games, the vets just aren't good enough so he inserts the rookies (more than he wanted to). but the rooks need to be developed so he can't reward them with crazy minutes if they're still making mistakes. so we see this roster shuffling going on. and in the process, he's trying to figure out what these players can and can't do and who can play together or not.

so to stop this total clusterf ck, it looks like we need some more stable, and more importantly, BETTER vets to HELP the young guys develop. so instead of guys like malik (who can't hit the side of a barn) or mo (who plays with stick'em on his hands), we get guys like <insert name here> to win some games now while bringing the young guys off the bench and ease them into the rotation. once the young guys "get it", they'll be permanent fixtures. and i think we ALL know that our young guys are a long long way away.

here's the problem...to get these vets, we HAVE to give up some of the young guys and picks. that's just the situation we're in b/c of the NASTINESS that are these veteran contracts. (but hey, it ain't our money). so instead of being able to move malik for a guy like ruben patterson (just as an example), we have to move malik + penny + trevor for patterson and ratliff. you guys get the point. (we have 8 young guys according to lb: ariza, nate, qyntel, jackie, frye, curry, q1, jamal - i would say half of those guys will probably be gone)

so this situation is NASTY and there are clashes on player evaluations and roles between lb and isiah, err...i mean milli vanilli. but i don't think it would've been this magnified IF we were winning some games in the process and i think that falls directly on the suckiness of our veterans.

what do you guys think?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 02-09-2006 11:45 AM]
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Knight
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2/9/2006  11:34 AM
Yes, we'll have to sacrifice a couple young players probably to stop the bleeding. I have to think Ariza, Jamal, Lee, and Butler would be the first to go. I wish we knew what the hell is going on with LB and Lee.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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2/9/2006  11:37 AM
100% agreed. And the whole thing is worse cause 1) Marb took about 2 months to "get it", 2) Q is hurt physically and mentally 3) Marbury is now hurt 4) AD took time to get to camp and also left during an important time 5) Penny is a no show.

Q1 is young but for whatever reason I consider him a midlevel vet.
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Rich
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2/9/2006  12:10 PM
Larry will destroy the future of this team.
BasketballJones
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2/9/2006  12:21 PM
If we trade away Lee, Frye, & Robinson for vets, the rookies will get more playing time.
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TMS
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2/9/2006  12:21 PM
the only vet on this team worth keeping around is Jalen Rose, oddly enough... it's clear that Stephon's not been a leader in all the time he's been here, & both Mo T & Malik are dead weight on this team... Penny's an afterthought (his expiring contract will be dealt, it's just a question of when).
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
knicks1248
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2/9/2006  12:29 PM
Posted by TMS:

the only vet on this team worth keeping around is Jalen Rose, oddly enough... it's clear that Stephon's not been a leader in all the time he's been here, & both Mo T & Malik are dead weight on this team... Penny's an afterthought (his expiring contract will be dealt, it's just a question of when).

Mo is actually servicable with the right surroundings, his a solid post up player, and has some range.

The leadership has been inconsistant with steph - and for god sake - this guy is more sg then pg especially on a team with know redd, houston, Ray allan, Peja,Ect.

ES
martin
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2/9/2006  12:31 PM
Posted by TMS:

the only vet on this team worth keeping around is Jalen Rose, oddly enough... it's clear that Stephon's not been a leader in all the time he's been here, & both Mo T & Malik are dead weight on this team... Penny's an afterthought (his expiring contract will be dealt, it's just a question of when).

MoT has been OK at times as a player but Malik is certainly not dead weight. Well, he is dead weight on the offensive end when he is out of his element (and that's like 75% of the time), but he is above and beyond to the young kids.
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djsunyc
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2/9/2006  12:32 PM
let's go the other way...let's talk about the guys that have been in the league for 5 years or more for a second...

q1, jamal, mo, malik, jerome, steph, and now jalen

how many of those guys do you think could play for a team like the spurs or pistons? how many do you think could start? how many do you think can get minutes off the bench? and how many would no be better than a 12th man?
martin
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2/9/2006  12:33 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

let's go the other way...let's talk about the guys that have been in the league for 5 years or more for a second...

q1, jamal, mo, malik, jerome, steph, and now jalen

how many of those guys do you think could play for a team like the spurs or pistons? how many do you think could start? how many do you think can get minutes off the bench? and how many would no be better than a 12th man?

steph and Jalan and that's it.
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TMS
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2/9/2006  12:35 PM
Posted by knicks1248:
Posted by TMS:

the only vet on this team worth keeping around is Jalen Rose, oddly enough... it's clear that Stephon's not been a leader in all the time he's been here, & both Mo T & Malik are dead weight on this team... Penny's an afterthought (his expiring contract will be dealt, it's just a question of when).

Mo is actually servicable with the right surroundings, his a solid post up player, and has some range.

The leadership has been inconsistant with steph - and for god sake - this guy is more sg then pg especially on a team with know redd, houston, Ray allan, Peja,Ect.

Mo T's true value will come as an expiring contract next season... other than that, he's simply eating up minutes that otherwise should be going to Frye & David Lee... i like how he's played this year, but he's not "needed" on this team... neither is Malik Rose. (sorry, i don't care how much towel waving he's done this year, he's absolutely brutal to watch on the court)... this is why i wish Isiah had used the amnesty on him rather than on JYD... at least JYD had an impact on games once in a while.


[Edited by - TMS on 02-09-2006 12:36 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
martin
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2/9/2006  12:40 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by knicks1248:
Posted by TMS:

the only vet on this team worth keeping around is Jalen Rose, oddly enough... it's clear that Stephon's not been a leader in all the time he's been here, & both Mo T & Malik are dead weight on this team... Penny's an afterthought (his expiring contract will be dealt, it's just a question of when).

Mo is actually servicable with the right surroundings, his a solid post up player, and has some range.

The leadership has been inconsistant with steph - and for god sake - this guy is more sg then pg especially on a team with know redd, houston, Ray allan, Peja,Ect.

Mo T's true value will come as an expiring contract next season... other than that, he's simply eating up minutes that otherwise should be going to Frye & David Lee... i like how he's played this year, but he's not "needed" on this team... neither is Malik Rose. (sorry, i don't care how much towel waving he's done this year, he's absolutely brutal to watch on the court)... this is why i wish Isiah had used the amnesty on him rather than on JYD... at least JYD had an impact on games once in a while.
[Edited by - TMS on 02-09-2006 12:36 PM]

at one moment you say MoT is taking away time one the court and then you suggest that JYD could at least play on the court. Kinda backwards. Malik is a LOT more than a towel waver, but he is deficient on the jumpers.
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TMS
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2/9/2006  12:45 PM
Posted by martin:

at one moment you say MoT is taking away time one the court and then you suggest that JYD could at least play on the court. Kinda backwards. Malik is a LOT more than a towel waver, but he is deficient on the jumpers.

JYD wouldn't be taking away minutes from either Frye or Lee... how is that backwards? i'm merely saying JYD had more of an impact on games than Malik Rose... Rose is painful to watch... i don't know what games you're watching if you think the guy's been a positive addition to this team.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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2/9/2006  12:46 PM
please tell me what the future of this team is. I see Frye. After that what else is the future? Curry? OK. After that?

2 guys I think that are available and would really help are Marko Jaric and Kenny Thomas. Both are tough, play D and high IQ players. Both have long contracts in the MLE range or slightly more. If we can use some of the young guys to make lateral type moves I'm all for it. Not counting Frye of course. I would like to keep Lee and Frye.

Maybe QRich and Nate for Kenny Thomas.
Maybe Crawford for Jaric. I think both those guys would benefit from a change of scenery.
Maybe Penny, Ariza, Jackie B and both our picks next year for Watson and KMart (if thats their fetish, its NOT mine)

That leaves you with much better vets. Guys that play hard, play D, share the ball and your still keeping the young frontcourt together.

Marbury
Jaric
Rose (3 wings that all have great handles and make plays)
KMart
Curry
bench: Kenny Thomas, Frye, Lee, JJ, Watson, QWoods, Malik

Something MUST be done about Mo T. He had a nice little stretch but he's a black hole and everyone knows it. It kills us. Its a joke right now
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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2/9/2006  12:49 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:

at one moment you say MoT is taking away time one the court and then you suggest that JYD could at least play on the court. Kinda backwards. Malik is a LOT more than a towel waver, but he is deficient on the jumpers.

JYD wouldn't be taking away minutes from either Frye or Lee... how is that backwards? i'm merely saying JYD had more of an impact on games than Malik Rose... Rose is painful to watch... i don't know what games you're watching if you think the guy's been a positive addition to this team.

didn't JYD play the 3/4?

Malik's befefit is in the lockerroom and on the bench. He is like an assitant on the court.
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bigbeast
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2/9/2006  12:56 PM
You think team is in a sorry state now? Wait until you see the slop Larry Brown leaves behind when he jumps to the next town!

Hell sacrifice our entire future for overacheiving 7th and 8th seeds in the playoffs, Then when he leaves, it'll be back to square one.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
fishmike
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2/9/2006  12:59 PM
enlighten us... please. What is this great future you people speak of. The only slop is what I see on the court every night.

Is Larry Brown going to trade away our lottery pick this year? Our first chance in a long time at franchise talent? MAybe he will trade next year's pick? Maybe he will trade expiring deals for Mo Taylor? Maybe he will give $50mm to a 170 pound shooting guard when nobody else is bidding.

Please tell me what Larry is going to do to wreck our great future
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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2/9/2006  1:04 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:

at one moment you say MoT is taking away time one the court and then you suggest that JYD could at least play on the court. Kinda backwards. Malik is a LOT more than a towel waver, but he is deficient on the jumpers.

JYD wouldn't be taking away minutes from either Frye or Lee... how is that backwards? i'm merely saying JYD had more of an impact on games than Malik Rose... Rose is painful to watch... i don't know what games you're watching if you think the guy's been a positive addition to this team.

didn't JYD play the 3/4?

Malik's befefit is in the lockerroom and on the bench. He is like an assitant on the court.


yeah, he'd be playing the same exact role Malik is playing now... only he's a better player & actually has a positive impact on games when he's on the floor, unlike Malik... Frye's minutes aren't getting cut because of Malik... his minutes are going to Mo T if anything... i'll give you Lee, though Qyntel & Jalen are taking some of his minutes too.

[Edited by - TMS on 02-09-2006 1:05 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
knicks1248
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2/9/2006  1:12 PM
Mo t would be much better on this squad had Curry been playing like the all-star he is capable of.
Although I agree 1000% about Rose whose seem to get worse by the second, Mo seems a litte more easier to tolerate, at least he's put some nmbrs on any giving night.

The rookies on this team are some of the best in the league and should have been swap for some better vets since december. Any clown knew that, but with LB and IT so proud of there rookie corp, (as if they drafted, Nate archibal, Tim duncun, Morrison-gonzaga-) They chose to neglect all the trade offers that requried them to be part of that would have essentially brought in better Vets.

Now there scrambling around and are probably destined to make another desperate attemp to save the (already pretty much done) season, thus bringing in another unerachiveing, over paid, coming off of knee surgey, back problem, no defense one demsional Vet.
ES
fishmike
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2/9/2006  1:15 PM
so far this crop of rookies sucks as a draft class. Saying ours are among the best isnt singing high praise. Frye is a great prospect. I like Lee and Nate but both have some major shortcomings.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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