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Financial perspective on the J Rose trade
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codeunknown
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2/7/2006  11:19 AM
I think everyone more or less understands that the J Rose trade doesn't affect our ability to acquire players in the future - in other words, we were capped out regardless. I also think everyone understands we obtained the better player in Jalen which WILL impact performance in the short term. And trivial as that may be, it was accomplished in conjunction with the acquisition of a draft pick, a long term piece we can use to help build a contender. The idea that Toronto was done a favor is no surprise - trades, by nature, will be mutually beneficial. And again, improving with respect to the other 28 teams in the league is the priority.

But, consider this. We essentially took away a year of salary from Toronto, affording them the chance to tinker in free agency sooner. That, in itself, isn't such a big deal if we didn't control the monopoly on large expiring deals - but we do. Fishmike has suggested that we overpaid - I'm not so sure that we overpaid in the current market. But, it is certainly an interesting idea that the Knicks, as the only team with an unlimited budget in the league, may be able to significantly change the market price on expiring deals by holding out. Clearly, the higher the price to unload an expiring deal, the greater the advantage to cap-neglecting management like that of the Knicks. With a strict policy of over-charging teams and no real competitors to deal with, even if we miss the boat on Jalen Rose and a 1st rounder this time around, maybe we entrench our financial dominance as a consistent means of confiscating franchise talent in the future.
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djsunyc
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2/7/2006  11:28 AM
patience patience patience.

why did we trade AD and not penny? and why did we do it at this particular time?

if toronto demanded AD, i would've said "forget it. take penny or leave it." and then i would've hung up the phone.

if they don't call back, cool, we save $34 mil but don't have a mid first rounder, that's ok, we could try other ways of getting in the draft if we desperately wanted in.

if they do, then we still make the deal and on our terms.

this still give us AD for another type of deal as he has alot more value than penny.

the longer you wait till the deadline, the more desperate other teams get. nobody else was trading for jalen. he was ours.
OAK
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2/7/2006  11:32 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

patience patience patience.

why did we trade AD and not penny? and why did we do it at this particular time?

if toronto demanded AD, i would've said "forget it. take penny or leave it." and then i would've hung up the phone.

if they don't call back, cool, we save $34 mil but don't have a mid first rounder, that's ok, we could try other ways of getting in the draft if we desperately wanted in.

if they do, then we still make the deal and on our terms.

this still give us AD for another type of deal as he has alot more value than penny.

the longer you wait till the deadline, the more desperate other teams get. nobody else was trading for jalen. he was ours.


Practically the same thing happened when we got Craw, JJ, and Curry. We outbid ourselves when no one was interested in giving them big $$$$$.
martin
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2/7/2006  11:36 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

patience patience patience.

why did we trade AD and not penny? and why did we do it at this particular time?

damned if you do and damned if you don't. We add Rose and everyone complains that the youngs at the 1-2-3 will have minutes taken away. We trade AD and no one is relieved at Frye, Lee, Butler getting extra minutes.

Marbury may be out for 2 weeks. And maybe he tweaks his shoulder again or returns at less than 100%. That leaves the Knicks with a crap for backcourt. And if you have no PG (Craw can't run the team, Nate can't do crap) and no SG (Q can't hit didly), won't the defense just collapse on our bigs in the post?

Curry has not been playing like the big we need, but I think most will agree that out post feeders give him crap for passes or sometimes forget that he is there, ie Curry himself if probably only 50% of the problem. Rose takes away time from Nate and Lee at the 3, but he opens up things for Curry, Frye and whatever down low, which will probably open up things for all of the perimeter guys.

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Bonn1997
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2/7/2006  11:37 AM
I'd say we slightly overpaid. That's why I gave the trade only a B-. I wanted Pape Sow or Calderon included. We could have tried creative trades where we're giving them one of our young players and SA's 2006 pick and giving them $3 mil (a $6 mil swing) for Rose and their unprotected pick, but I highly doubt they would have done. I wouldn't give up a top 3 pick for that package just to get under the cap 12 months earlier.
codeunknown
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2/7/2006  11:37 AM
Posted by djsunyc:


the longer you wait till the deadline, the more desperate other teams get. nobody else was trading for jalen. he was ours.

Again, assuming we functioned in a larger league market, this deal was fine in my opinion. Whether Toronto specifically gives up more is speculative and how desperate a team gets is anyone's guess. There's also a certain likelihood that the deal is off the table by the trade deadline. Realistically, I think the deal would have been there in mid February but, chances are, we wouldn't have gotten much more out of it.
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martin
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2/7/2006  11:38 AM
Posted by codeunknown:

I think everyone more or less understands that the J Rose trade doesn't affect our ability to acquire players in the future - in other words, we were capped out regardless. I also think everyone understands we obtained the better player in Jalen which WILL impact performance in the short term. And trivial as that may be, it was accomplished in conjunction with the acquisition of a draft pick, a long term piece we can use to help build a contender. The idea that Toronto was done a favor is no surprise - trades, by nature, will be mutually beneficial. And again, improving with respect to the other 28 teams in the league is the priority.

But, consider this. We essentially took away a year of salary from Toronto, affording them the chance to tinker in free agency sooner. That, in itself, isn't such a big deal if we didn't control the monopoly on large expiring deals - but we do. Fishmike has suggested that we overpaid - I'm not so sure that we overpaid in the current market. But, it is certainly an interesting idea that the Knicks, as the only team with an unlimited budget in the league, may be able to significantly change the market price on expiring deals by holding out. Clearly, the higher the price to unload an expiring deal, the greater the advantage to cap-neglecting management like that of the Knicks. With a strict policy of over-charging teams and no real competitors to deal with, even if we miss the boat on Jalen Rose and a 1st rounder this time around, maybe we entrench our financial dominance as a consistent means of confiscating franchise talent in the future.

intesting perspective. It would be interesting to know what other expiring contracts are out there. GHill would be one.
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djsunyc
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2/7/2006  11:47 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

patience patience patience.

why did we trade AD and not penny? and why did we do it at this particular time?

damned if you do and damned if you don't. We add Rose and everyone complains that the youngs at the 1-2-3 will have minutes taken away. We trade AD and no one is relieved at Frye, Lee, Butler getting extra minutes.

Marbury may be out for 2 weeks. And maybe he tweaks his shoulder again or returns at less than 100%. That leaves the Knicks with a crap for backcourt. And if you have no PG (Craw can't run the team, Nate can't do crap) and no SG (Q can't hit didly), won't the defense just collapse on our bigs in the post?

Curry has not been playing like the big we need, but I think most will agree that out post feeders give him crap for passes or sometimes forget that he is there, ie Curry himself if probably only 50% of the problem. Rose takes away time from Nate and Lee at the 3, but he opens up things for Curry, Frye and whatever down low, which will probably open up things for all of the perimeter guys.

martin, it's NEVER damned if you don't. that means you thought out the offer and decided it wasn't the right move. that is a huge departure in how isiah has operated and to me, it would show a sign of growth. especially since every deal has us taking back MORE money and bailing out another team in the process.

hey, you got a player you desperately want to dump AND save some money in the process? call isiah.

secondly, frye and curry had the 4/5 spot handed to them next year as AD expires. plus, even with AD here, he wasn't dominating the minutes. jrose can still play and will effectively eliminate all minutes for dlee and probably nate. q2 may get a few minutes as lb wanted him.

i'm starting to think MS is right, we only did this deal so when we give chicago the #2 pick overall, isiah can save a little face.
Knight
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2/7/2006  11:56 AM
How many times this year have people in this forum demanded that somebody on this team be traded? There will always be people complaining if Isiah doesn't make a deal.
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
martin
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2/7/2006  12:00 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

patience patience patience.

why did we trade AD and not penny? and why did we do it at this particular time?

damned if you do and damned if you don't. We add Rose and everyone complains that the youngs at the 1-2-3 will have minutes taken away. We trade AD and no one is relieved at Frye, Lee, Butler getting extra minutes.

Marbury may be out for 2 weeks. And maybe he tweaks his shoulder again or returns at less than 100%. That leaves the Knicks with a crap for backcourt. And if you have no PG (Craw can't run the team, Nate can't do crap) and no SG (Q can't hit didly), won't the defense just collapse on our bigs in the post?

Curry has not been playing like the big we need, but I think most will agree that out post feeders give him crap for passes or sometimes forget that he is there, ie Curry himself if probably only 50% of the problem. Rose takes away time from Nate and Lee at the 3, but he opens up things for Curry, Frye and whatever down low, which will probably open up things for all of the perimeter guys.

martin, it's NEVER damned if you don't. that means you thought out the offer and decided it wasn't the right move. that is a huge departure in how isiah has operated and to me, it would show a sign of growth. especially since every deal has us taking back MORE money and bailing out another team in the process.

hey, you got a player you desperately want to dump AND save some money in the process? call isiah.

secondly, frye and curry had the 4/5 spot handed to them next year as AD expires. plus, even with AD here, he wasn't dominating the minutes. jrose can still play and will effectively eliminate all minutes for dlee and probably nate. q2 may get a few minutes as lb wanted him.

i'm starting to think MS is right, we only did this deal so when we give chicago the #2 pick overall, isiah can save a little face.

Isiah has said it straight to you: The Knicks will not be under the cap. So, they go out and grab another draft pick and a player who would help them better. What's the problem with that? If AD had the same amount of years as JRose, would the trade be any better?

They also get a guy who knows how to run an offense, and now the Knicks have 2 of such players. Does it take minutes away from Nate, Lee, Woods, Q? Sure. Were those players doing anything that would help the team progress other than being on the court? Not really.

With a young team you do need a good mix of vets and youth. Maybe Isiah thought it was the wrong mix, who knows. I know as a GM I would be PISSED that AD didn't show up for practice after he got suspended. That aint leadership for the young-uns. The team has MRose as an on-the-floor assistant for the big men, and now it has JRose for the 1-2-3. That's a better balance.
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joec32033
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2/7/2006  12:32 PM
Martin I actually have to agree with you...this trade in my mind is no brainer.....we are arguing about AD or Penny? WTF is that, they both were trade bait, basically being 6 of one half dozen of another.

AD was brought here to help lead and the only place he led this team was into the stands in Chicago. None of the bigs showed a marked improvement in defense and rebounding (2 areas that you would figure AD would help them) and as you said the last straw was abandoning the team during the suspension.

Also....just something to think about....Penny's contract fits better with trades we are talking about with Denver and Portland.
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crzymdups
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2/7/2006  12:40 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by djsunyc:

patience patience patience.

why did we trade AD and not penny? and why did we do it at this particular time?

damned if you do and damned if you don't. We add Rose and everyone complains that the youngs at the 1-2-3 will have minutes taken away. We trade AD and no one is relieved at Frye, Lee, Butler getting extra minutes.

Marbury may be out for 2 weeks. And maybe he tweaks his shoulder again or returns at less than 100%. That leaves the Knicks with a crap for backcourt. And if you have no PG (Craw can't run the team, Nate can't do crap) and no SG (Q can't hit didly), won't the defense just collapse on our bigs in the post?

Curry has not been playing like the big we need, but I think most will agree that out post feeders give him crap for passes or sometimes forget that he is there, ie Curry himself if probably only 50% of the problem. Rose takes away time from Nate and Lee at the 3, but he opens up things for Curry, Frye and whatever down low, which will probably open up things for all of the perimeter guys.

Exactly. Having Jalen here takes pressure off Nate and Jamal and allows them to do what they do best - score. Those guys can't run an offense. Jalen can. Marbury is going to be out for a while.
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MS
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2/7/2006  12:41 PM
We essentially suck, Toronto is going to get another player in the draft and have the ability to maybe package Villenueva, and sign another free agent and keep Chris Bosh, you don't give flexibility to division rivals.....
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2/7/2006  12:41 PM
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crzymdups
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2/7/2006  12:45 PM
Posted by MS:

We essentially suck, Toronto is going to get another player in the draft and have the ability to maybe package Villenueva, and sign another free agent and keep Chris Bosh, you don't give flexibility to division rivals.....

When was the last time Toronto signed an impact free agent? Even in a sign and trade, the player has to WANT to go to the team he's being traded too. I could see Toronto getting Jamaal Magloire or perhaps Joel Przybilla but nothing significant.
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Knight
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2/7/2006  12:47 PM
Posted by MS:

We essentially suck, Toronto is going to get another player in the draft and have the ability to maybe package Villenueva, and sign another free agent and keep Chris Bosh, you don't give flexibility to division rivals.....

Toronto essentially sucks, we are going to get another player in the draft and have the ability to maybe package Rose next year and keep all of our young players, you don't give flexibility to division rivals.....
"He only went to Georgia Tech for one year, and that's an engineering school." -LB
McK1
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2/7/2006  12:49 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by MS:

We essentially suck, Toronto is going to get another player in the draft and have the ability to maybe package Villenueva, and sign another free agent and keep Chris Bosh, you don't give flexibility to division rivals.....

When was the last time Toronto signed an impact free agent? Even in a sign and trade, the player has to WANT to go to the team he's being traded too. I could see Toronto getting Jamaal Magloire or perhaps Joel Przybilla but nothing significant.


A frontline of Bosh Magloire and Villanueva is very significant
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
realhiphop
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2/7/2006  12:54 PM
Except Villanueva would be at a huge disadvantage playing at SF.
McK1
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2/7/2006  12:58 PM
no he wouldn't. He has the athleticism ball-handling and foot speed to play it.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
crzymdups
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2/7/2006  1:01 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by MS:

We essentially suck, Toronto is going to get another player in the draft and have the ability to maybe package Villenueva, and sign another free agent and keep Chris Bosh, you don't give flexibility to division rivals.....

When was the last time Toronto signed an impact free agent? Even in a sign and trade, the player has to WANT to go to the team he's being traded too. I could see Toronto getting Jamaal Magloire or perhaps Joel Przybilla but nothing significant.


A frontline of Bosh Magloire and Villanueva is very significant

I'd like to see Villanueva guard Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony, Shawn Marion, Josh Howard and a few of the other athletic SFs in this league. also, Magloire is under contract in Milwaukee through the end of next season, so they'd have to make a trade to acquire him.
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