You know some guy blasted me a bit for not showing more optimism and clearly there has been a high level of negativity that the Knicks have around the organization right now--from the fans to I believe other GMS in the league and perhaps their own players.

I'm sorry if I did not post here six weeks before the draft-- i didn't know about the site. I posted on NBA draft net and I launched into a tirade on why the Knicks should've drafted Amare Stoudamaire.

Since this is a true NY Knick forum and actually civilized I will give my account on why I think many people were upset with Layden at the draft and why I feel this team is in deep doo-doo.

EVERY single NBA champion has been created primarily through the NBA draft. The NBA draft allowed the Knicks to have 14 glorious years after we drafted Ewing. Yes we did suffer the first couple of years with Ewing[and he was injured one of those seasons} but it set the foundation for an unbelievable run. The unfortunate part is that we came away with 0 and I would argue that we had the best team twice in the 90s and perhaps twice was very close to 1--so 4 potential championships were on the table primarily due to us drafting Ewing in the draft.

Jerry wesy--"you need talent to win" Now where do you find that talent? Obviously you can find it anywhere in the world now in the amateur ranks--you can maeuver into position for a top tier free agent or you can trade for one. Trading however tends to make teams give up talent for talent in most cases and thats the road we took.

Not only did we take option three--we took that route knowing that Antonio Mcdyess is coming off major surgery to one knee[the tendon that runs behind the kneecap] and structural cleansing of another. This player is one who relies heavily on his athletiscm and one who in his prime--even playing with Jason Kidd was never a difference maker. All right.

Now here is where my anger comes from[although I have more class to sit in MSG and shout Layden s%$&s} and perhaps others as well. This team desperately needed to keep the pick and draft the best available talent. CLEARLY anyone who really watches and knows basketball watched Amare dismantle Curry and Chandler two years ago and dominate the McDs game this year. He was the BEST talent a consensus number 1 pick for college teams. This was talent of Chris Webber Kobe Bryant Tracy Mcgrady. this was talent like a young Antonio Mcdyess -yet a much more fierce competitor a real fire in his eyes. A guy who couldve been a cornerstone to a Knick franchise for year to come. How much different would this club be with AS and Camby vs. Mcdyess? I think it's a no brainer IMHO. Those Knick fans I hope realized the same thing--we dropped the ball and now have to sit back and pray this guy is healthy and that Spree who lost his best friend and has been lowlifed by Layden this summer will not play with a grudge.

I don't like talking down about my club but I wish we had a GM who *GOT IT*>

Sorry if I'm not so hot on the Doleac news:>)/

Camby needed a change of senery as did Dice. I wish they had kept Nene and added Dice. But the deal is done and we can't look back at what could have been. AM will be a good player as good as Dice. Knowing that the Knicks have Spree and Houston who are in their prime there was no way to add rookies to a team that needs to make use of their talent before they fade away. If the Knicks had given Ewing Spree in the early or mid 90's Ewing would have a ring on his finger. This current Knicks team will compete for the east and may win the east. They need to get a point guard to run the show who is capable to lead them, a good point and they may just give the Lakers or Kings a run for the championship.

Neither Nene, Wilcox, or Stoud would help this year or for a few years. This is the best trade we could have done to get the team back in the upper half of the league. McDyess is still young too so i think it was good for both the present and the future.

OK, I read your post. Now that you explained your reasoning in detail, I understand why you feel that way.

Although we traded our pick, Antonio McDyess may still work out. If he fully overcomes his injury, Dyess will have an immediate positive impact on the team. The Knicks just aren't a team that raises players well, which is evident by the number of players that we acually drafted currently on the team.

Scott LayDown may somewhat be able to redeem himself if that move pays off, and if whatever move he makes next proves to help the team in both the short and long run.

From "some guy blasted (you) a bit for not showing more optimism",

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 07/30/2002 18:04:23]

amare has alot of growing up to do. summer league isnt nba. last years summer league postell was mvp (he is far from superstar). we dont have 4 years for a player to develop into a decent (not great) player. layden did the right thing. draft and championship has no connnection. superstar and championship. unless you have a star its impossible to win. mcdyess is a star and hillaro is just toung player with potential. so many players with potential become duds. go with the sure thing. a player you draft wont lead u to a championship in a few years.

Excellent points Briggs, you make some extremely valid remarks.

My take on the whole thing is this.

We traded for a guy who will be ther best low-post player in the East. No other team has what we have. JOneal comes close, but Dice will eat him alive. I love the trade, and the second rounder Layden squeezed out of Denver next year is a great bonus. Denver will suck and that pick could be #30. I truely expect Dice to average 20 and 12 next season. I expect Houston to get about 25ppg with all the open looks he will get and Spree to get about 18-20ppg.

By the time Stoud or Nene could have really helped us, Spree and Houston will be mid 30's and that window would have passed.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Just a question about your theory of a three year window with sprewell and hosuton. why is layden shopping sprewell so hard that it is becoming a joke? what was the plan to fill the center and point guard positionswhen we traded our starters for Mcdyess-- a position that we now have 4 players sitting in at a price tag of 27mm? this is my point there is no clear cut business plan, there hasnt been since layden got here and all we have are aging vets a huge gamble in a position we are loaded in. its a mismatch mess of players with tremendous structural flaw with a ludicrous payroll this is not how to run a business nor an nba franchise.

Hold on there, I am not understanding all of you points.

Layden is shopping Spree because he is the only valuable asset that the Knicks have, and let's face it, he does duplicate the position that Houston plays. Not that it was possible, but Spree for Baron or Miller would have been a worthwhile upgrade. Spree for a younger, true small forward is a worthwhile upgrade. Spree for a younger player with lots of potential or at near the same level widens the window of opportunity for the Knicks.

Now, on the business plan side of things, you have to consider 2 things: NBA championship and $$$. Outside of Shaq and the Lakers (and maybe an odd-chance Western conference team) no one is going to win the NBA title in the next coming years. Thus, maximize your playoff home games. That's the business plan. McDyess does that. Nene does not, Wilcox does not, Amare does not. Who else does? Camby and Jackson? No.

The Knicks do have a mix-match of players, but I would argue that if you consider Spree a solid small forward, only Travis and Eisley are luggage players. The other fit, overpaid (Anderson, Spoon), but fit.

Posted by BRIGGS:

You are stating that their plan is to maximize these dollars by somehow making the playoffs and advancing. This of course will have to offset the 40mm we will have to pay in luxury tax dollars to grab all of our *exceptional* players that will propel us into the first round!

Of course it would. That's the same for all NBA teams. What's the point?

Let me ask you or any other Knick fan these questions. Has Antonio McDyess ever played to a level where he propelled any club into the playoffs? has Antonio played with relatively good players? By trading for Antonio McDyess we now have 27 million dollars worth of power forwards but we traded our starting center and point guard leaving those void. Where is the plan to fill these voids?

A player that is always hurt and Jackson do not count as solid players. Dang, they were voids when they were in NY.

One of the voids that the Knicks did fill was a low post threat. For Spree and Houston to be ultimately effective, they need a horse in the paint. Injuries to Dice aside, he fills the double team void too.

You have to read Jerry Wests transcript from esPN chat. I read it last night and he keeps using the word talent and actually says somewhere in there that Amare was the second best prospect behind Gooden. I ll get the article and link it here. I think its a pretty good quick read into how he thinks a club is put together and validates my own thinking as to why we wont win with this formula. Posted by nwny:[/b]

BRIGGS definitely one of the best post I’ve seen in awhile. This is where we disagree:

Fact: Cablevision will never let the Knicks truly rebuild. They have too much invested in the team. The owners have said on numerous occasions that the Knicks as an organization do not start making money until the second round of the playoffs. It costs too much run and maintain MSG, and the Knicks. So forget about years, and years of not making the playoffs while we rebuild. It’s not going to happen

Amare Stoudemire is too raw. He would have been useless to us for the next 3 years. We have to make our run now. I loved watching Camby play. And you are correct, he put back a lot of Spree’s and Houston’s junk, but the guy was like peanut brittle! He couldn’t stay healthy. Dice has had one injury. Believe me when I tell you that we didn’t loose Mark Jackson. Denver did us a favor by taking him. By trading him we automatically upgraded at the PG spot, even if Frank Williams never plays a single game for us. He was a defensive liability, and once the NBA created the rule that you had a limited amount of time to back someone into the post, the main part of his offense was made illegal. Mark is done. Denver has offered to give him a buy-out.

Note: Basketball is a real business world. And in the real business world Layden would not have been canned. Are you forgetting that JEFF VAN GUNDY split??!!?? Layden: “I brought in guys that could play in Jeff’s system. He quit, Chaney comes in, he’s got a team of half-court players and he wants to play run-and-gun basketball.” No, in the real business world he would have been given a chance to build his own team. Which is what the Dolan’s are doing.
First move: Get a low post player who’s also good in the open court. Done. We now have the best PF in the East. Period.
Second move: Get rid of your point guard who retired two seasons ago but he still doesn’t know it yet. Done
Third move: Get a center. Someone who doesn’t need the ball to contribute. Working. That’s the reason we didn’t go after Clark. He needs the ball. There will be no more balls for anyone, with Dice, Spree, AH on the same team.
Get an upgrade at the PG. Working.
Let’s say we don’t get the point guard this year. You said so yourself that a business plan is developed over several years.
There is plan place here. You may not agree with the plan, but that doesn’t mean it’s doesn’t exist.
Don’t use the Lakers as an example. They signed Shack. Period. If they didn’t make that move Kobe would be scoring 30 per night on a sub 500 team. BTW Jerry West drafted Drew Gooden, even though Stoudemire was available. Just an observation.
This team, even with Kurt at center, gets into the eastern conference finals. And that’s the plan.

[/quote]

West's philosophy:
Address needs through trades, and draft talent.
Need: We haven’t had a low-post presence since Ewing had two wrists that were healthy. This is a need. We trade for Dice. Done.
Draft talent: With the 25th pick we draft Frank Williams. Second best PG in the draft and all would agree the most talented player left on the board when we drafted.