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growing pains for ariza + james (article)
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djsunyc
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1/5/2006  12:39 AM
For Knicks' Ariza and James, Growing Pains Still Hurt
By MAREK FUCHS

GREENBURGH, N.Y., Jan. 4 - Jerome James is the largest player on the Knicks, and Trevor Ariza is the lankiest. Each is going through tough times on a team that is 13 games under .500.

On Wednesday, they were the subject of scrutiny as the Knicks went through another practice, still basking in Monday's 140-133 triple-overtime victory over Phoenix.

Neither player took part in that game, with James having been suspended indefinitely for arriving for practice Sunday in poor condition to play and Ariza having been demoted to third string after a stint as the starting small forward.

Ariza, a second-year player, was taken aback Monday when he was taken out of the rotation and informed by a Knicks public relations official - and not Coach Larry Brown - about the decision.

But Brown seemed in no mood to offer any apologies Wednesday. He said that in a season that has featured a constant stream of new lineups, it did not bode well for the 20-year-old Ariza if he was overly upset at being benched.

"If he's miffed, then he's not as smart as I think he is," Brown said.

The 6-foot-8 Ariza, who was a second-round draft pick after his freshman season at U.C.L.A., was thought to be an important piece of the Knicks' youth movement and had been a starter as recently as Dec. 23. But while he is able to guard his man well and play the passing lanes, he is not fully formed as a scorer. And this season, he has shown few signs of improvement.

Although Ariza works on his outside shot regularly after practice, he is hesitant to take it in a game. He is averaging fewer than 5 points a game and appears to be preoccupied on offense, as if he is trying to read a playbook while he runs around the court.

Brown said he was not concerned that he had alienated Ariza, who sat courtside after practice talking to Isiah Thomas, the team's president, and left the gym as reporters huddled around Brown.

"I'm not worried about it," Brown said. "He had a great practice. His thing is he's a young player and he'll have an opportunity to play. It's entirely up to him."

Asked about how big an issue coach-player communication is for a team, Brown answered that it was huge. He then added that he did not owe Ariza an explanation for the manner in which he learned that he was demoted.

"Guys know," Brown said. "I don't buy this - Trevor knows. He knows why he didn't get to play. I believe it's important to communicate, but sometimes by your actions, you know."

He said that the rookies David Lee and Channing Frye spent four years in college and seemed better equipped for the learning ladder of the N.B.A. than Ariza. Lee began the season on the inactive list, played sparingly for two weeks, was deactivated for seven games and was still impressive with a 23-point, 15-rebound performance in the victory over Phoenix.

"They've been taught the value of being part of a team," Brown said of Lee and Frye. "They don't take anything that's given to them for granted. They don't feel empowered that since they are in the N.B.A., they are going to play right away."

Brown was less talkative about James, who participated in practice even though he remained suspended.

Asked if the fact that he was practicing was an indication that he would be reactivated, James demurred. "I don't know," he said.

Asked repeatedly about his emotional state, about the fairness of the suspension and about whether he would appeal it, James politely refused to answer.

James's season has been a disappointment. Though thought of as a foul-prone underachiever, James was signed to a lucrative long-term deal last summer with the intent that he would become the Knicks' starting center. But before long, the Knicks acquired the younger and more talented Eddy Curry, making the 7-foot-1 James less relevant, and the season has turned into one of injuries, poor conditioning and too many fouls for him.

"You never expect this, but it's the lows and highs of the N.B.A.," James said.

He pegged his current health at about 70 percent and said that injuries had been the cause of his poor conditioning.

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you're hurt, you can't work," he said. "If you can't work, you can't stay in condition."



[Edited by - djsunyc on 01-05-2006 12:40 AM]
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attaboy2005
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1/5/2006  12:50 AM
Ariza has too show his progress on the court, he has at times before shwon a decent jumper, but this year, he has been very hesitant to pull the trigger on his jumper and drive to the basket putting up a crazy shot, then maybe going to the line, but usually turning the ball over.
technomaster
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1/5/2006  2:55 AM
He played very well in the summer leagues this year... but he has not taken the next step against NBA-level competition. It looks like nearly everyone on the team has struggled (or been very erratic) under Larry Brown. Brown's most consistent player (Frye) is now relegated to bench duties. After sitting out 7 games in a row, David Lee is suddenly a mainstay in the rotation. Nate Robinson has somehow played his way into the rotation after being an afterthought.

Ariza may find his way back in the rotation--- if he's really good, he'll have an opportunity later.
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EnySpree
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1/5/2006  3:48 AM
When Ariza can make a lay-up then he should get burn.

He's going for a lay-up now? His body is not square to the basket. Look where the ball is.



I'm looking for better pics to explain this. Ariza is a tard. Just look at how his body is turned. He is never gonna be able to score if he doesn't get off the little yellow bus and learn how to take his man and score with something other than a dunk.




This one here is an easy left handed lay-up. He looks like "please go in!"


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franco12
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1/5/2006  8:39 AM
regardless of whether ariza should be playing or not- his comments that the team is confused carry weight.

And the reason for the confusion- LB.

He's getting paid $10m- do you think he could sit down with Ariza and say- right now, I'm starting Lee & Woods ahead of you- and here's why and here's what you need to work on.

Wait- he is supposed to be developing youth. Ariza is supposed to guess at what he needs to do?

Sorry- LB should explain to him- or have one of the half dozen assistant coaches explain it.
VDesai
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1/5/2006  8:46 AM
EnySpree hit it. He has very awkward body control while finishing. His body isn't straight and sometimes he just chucks up prayers at the glass. And he's missed more than a few dunks this year. I don't know what's up with his mechanics.
oohah
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1/5/2006  8:46 AM
Ariza did not seem to be sulking or pouting on the bench last game--I looked to see how he would react.

Larry also yanked him for the Clippers game, it seemed like some silly sh!t to me.

Enough mind games Larry please.

Eny-be fair, Ariza is not a good scorer, but in those pictures there is some pretty serious defense going on, I mean the bottom one was Delambert, one of the best shot-blockers in the league, and the second to the bottom it looks like the guy has bumped Ariza's arm away.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Nalod
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1/5/2006  8:53 AM
Eny, a picture is worth a thousand words, but unless your looking at video.......its hard to break down his game.

I don't think your wrong about his fundamentals, lets not call him a "tard". Say "fundamentally challanged".

I love what larry said! Why, cuz this NBA thing is not all bling bling and starbound. Reezy has cowered under the pressure and not able to translate his talents in the spotlight. Sure he is talented, but he is not confident. This may or may not come and his asthma condition might hurt him under stress and duress. But this is why being a "professional" is so damm hard! Larry is old school and has had hundreds of guys to coach and won't coddle the young guys. They are either in the league and accept the job and the tough things that go along or get the hell out. THey are paid big money. Reezy might be more concerned about his performance and choking than being a part of the team. sounds one and the same, but if I can pull out larrys quote that is what he might be saying.

We have 5 assistant coaches and Uncle Isiah to 'splain the deal to him.

Maybe this is reason number 10 as to why kids should stay in school.

I think Eddy in his own way was thwarted by this as has many young players.
franco12
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1/5/2006  9:00 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Eny, a picture is worth a thousand words, but unless your looking at video.......its hard to break down his game.

I don't think your wrong about his fundamentals, lets not call him a "tard". Say "fundamentally challanged".

I love what larry said! Why, cuz this NBA thing is not all bling bling and starbound. Reezy has cowered under the pressure and not able to translate his talents in the spotlight. Sure he is talented, but he is not confident. This may or may not come and his asthma condition might hurt him under stress and duress. But this is why being a "professional" is so damm hard! Larry is old school and has had hundreds of guys to coach and won't coddle the young guys. They are either in the league and accept the job and the tough things that go along or get the hell out. THey are paid big money. Reezy might be more concerned about his performance and choking than being a part of the team. sounds one and the same, but if I can pull out larrys quote that is what he might be saying.

We have 5 assistant coaches and Uncle Isiah to 'splain the deal to him.

Maybe this is reason number 10 as to why kids should stay in school.

I think Eddy in his own way was thwarted by this as has many young players.

Yes- but it was a PR guy that told Ariza he was out!
oohah
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1/5/2006  9:11 AM
I love what larry said! Why, cuz this NBA thing is not all bling bling and starbound. Reezy has cowered under the pressure and not able to translate his talents in the spotlight. Sure he is talented, but he is not confident. This may or may not come and his asthma condition might hurt him under stress and duress. But this is why being a "professional" is so damm hard! Larry is old school and has had hundreds of guys to coach and won't coddle the young guys. They are either in the league and accept the job and the tough things that go along or get the hell out. THey are paid big money. Reezy might be more concerned about his performance and choking than being a part of the team. sounds one and the same, but if I can pull out larrys quote that is what he might be saying.

Ever wonder if LB ruined Darko or set him back, not with a lack of playing time, but by destroying his confidence to a point where he "could not recover" (Chauncey Billups' description)?

What is LB's deal with younger players? I don't understand his handling of Frye or Lee either.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-05-2006 09:12 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
fishmike
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1/5/2006  9:22 AM
its funny how in college no player would question a coach. You just to what you told and you get what you get. Then when you go to the pros your suddenly entitled to more, for reasons, for justifications. As I understand Larry said that Wood and Lee both beat out Ariza. What more needs to be explained?
I've watched every minute of Ariza's pro career. He plays very hard, on both sides of the ball, but he's not a good player. He's a great athlete, even in the NBA world. But he lacks so many fundamentals it makes it hard to commit him to a lot of time. Also I have to dispute this notion of great defense. He plays as hard there as anyone, but is he a great defender? Who has Ariza ever shut down? I think a lot of people confuse his playing hard for playing well.

He's 20. He passes well and rebounds very well. But he's well below NBA standards in just about everything else, and he lacks key fundamentals. Let him sit and learn. LB doesnt owe him crap.
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Nalod
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1/5/2006  9:31 AM
My interpretation of the Darko thing, and now Reezy is Larry don't want kids on his roster not able to contribute. I guess he thinks that if your in the NBA and get paid then your ready to play to the high level.

I think he did not play Wade-carmello-lebron as they were just rookies and don't get the team concept yet. Maybe they were too preoccupied with making sure they just fit in and not looking stupid. Two years after the fact those guys have matured alot, especially Carmello. Olympic teams are not for developing.

I also think Larry was not a good fit for that Olympic team as he tried to do too much in a short time. Trying to make Marbs a point guard in two weeks is not easy.

Larry treats all the guys the same, and an 18 year old might not be ready for the hard tough coaching style and might freak out many fragile/young guys.

Larry is a great coach, but this just may be one part of his greatness is to expect form each member a high level of professionalism and be able to perform under presure. If your not battle tested, your gonna fold in the playoffs, and champions cannot be made that way!

I have been long winded in the past about "mentally soft" players which Isiah has been famous for collecting. Tim Thomas, Vin Baker, Marbs, etc, are examples and before them Isley, Shandon and old Freddie Weis are examples of this. Great talent, and were over paid thus became available. I put Chris Webber and Artest in the same catagorie with different results. Artest folds under pressure. Paul Pierce ego elbow last year was soft. Portland Trailblazers a few years back were talented but soft.

What larry bought to the pistons was the toughness to get the job done. I doubt if larry had any say Darko would not have been his draft pick.

Bill Davidson thought Larry was not a nice person. Well you know, it ain't always about being nice, and in this day and age I think Larry is likely right that 4-5 years is enough with the same group cuz these young millionaire divas won't want to hear too much of him.

I think that being universally liked as a coach is not all that effective. Larry brings a big cred, a big contract, and has enough balls to bring the hammer down hard and not care who likes him and who does not.

If Reezy is successful, he will love larry for pushing him to that edge and being real with him. If not, Reezy will be gone and hate larry for the same reason.

We all had a teacher or coach who pushed us and we might have hated them. BUt in time, we come to understand what it was all about. And I for one appreciate those people in my life more than the ones whom were just nice.

Bobby Knight was either loved or hated by some players. Isiah will flat out tell you his hall of fame career is due to Knight pushing him hard.

[Edited by - nalod on 01-05-2006 09:35 AM]
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1/5/2006  9:33 AM
Much as I love Reezy I'm totally with LB here. The man's achieved a great deal in his career. If he's breaking down Reezy now to help him build something real later, then I'm all for it. What would be more gratifying than having all these young guys flourish later on this season when they're playing LB ball? Count me among those who aren't worrying about the communication either.

And unless and until Darko shows he's got what it takes to play in the league I don't hold LB accountable at all for that. So far Darko = Skita. LB did't have anythi to do with breaking down Skita's #5-pick cofidence or game, did he?
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1/5/2006  10:16 AM
If Reezy folds after being benched, then he(like Darko) may lack the mental toughness to be a major part of a winning team. If that's the case who needs him. But if he gets angry and responds he will be better because of it.

20 year olds should not be running the show and whining. They should be listening to the coach. Fish is 100% correct. If Ariza whined to the media in college, guys like Calhoun might simply ask him to transfer.
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oohah
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1/5/2006  10:31 AM
its funny how in college no player would question a coach.

That is just not true.

My interpretation of the Darko thing, and now Reezy is Larry don't want kids on his roster not able to contribute.

That doesn't explain the jerking around of Lee especially, and Frye as well.

I think he did not play Wade-carmello-lebron as they were just rookies and don't get the team concept yet. Maybe they were too preoccupied with making sure they just fit in and not looking stupid. Two years after the fact those guys have matured alot, especially Carmello. Olympic teams are not for developing.

I think you are off on that one, LeBron has always been recognized for being a good team player and good passer, and Wade has been the consumate team player since before the NBA.

If Ariza whined to the media in college, guys like Calhoun might simply ask him to transfer.

When did Ariza whine to the media? And, I think you are wrong. College coaches, even at Uconn don't ask NBA talent to transfer.

In fact in college these guys have historically had everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Larry treats all the guys the same, and an 18 year old might not be ready for the hard tough coaching style and might freak out many fragile/young guys.

If LB treated everyone equally it would have been Rose logging all the DNP's not Lee.

Bobby Knight was either loved or hated by some players. Isiah will flat out tell you his hall of fame career is due to Knight pushing him hard.

Bobby Knight is a great coach, but in my opinion the way he treats his players is despicable. Kryzewski is tough too, but you never heard a story about him taking a crap on the court. He has had a number of very good players leave Indiana because he is such a prick. Why did Larry Bird tansfer? He says it was because he didn't fit in...

Guys, I think too many people are trying to find a way for Larry to be right in his poor treatment of rookies. It's not just about Ariza or Darko. The whole Lee thing pisses me off.

Both Lee and the Olympics are a very good example of LB hurting his team with his rookie nonsense.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 01-05-2006 10:32 AM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
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1/5/2006  10:37 AM
Oohah, I don't know if this is true but I'm proposing it as a possiblity. What if Larry wanted to give Lee more rep's in practice at the 3 and more drilling on fundamentals before exposing him to the position in a regular season game? Lee was just quoted as saying that he never shot from the outside in college and has been working on it like crazy. It's only the first 25 games of his rookie year after all. And the guy played mostly 5 and some 4 in college.
tkf
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1/5/2006  10:41 AM
Posted by Nalod:

My interpretation of the Darko thing, and now Reezy is Larry don't want kids on his roster not able to contribute. I guess he thinks that if your in the NBA and get paid then your ready to play to the high level.

I think he did not play Wade-carmello-lebron as they were just rookies and don't get the team concept yet. Maybe they were too preoccupied with making sure they just fit in and not looking stupid. Two years after the fact those guys have matured alot, especially Carmello. Olympic teams are not for developing.

I also think Larry was not a good fit for that Olympic team as he tried to do too much in a short time. Trying to make Marbs a point guard in two weeks is not easy.

Larry treats all the guys the same, and an 18 year old might not be ready for the hard tough coaching style and might freak out many fragile/young guys.

Larry is a great coach, but this just may be one part of his greatness is to expect form each member a high level of professionalism and be able to perform under presure. If your not battle tested, your gonna fold in the playoffs, and champions cannot be made that way!

I have been long winded in the past about "mentally soft" players which Isiah has been famous for collecting. Tim Thomas, Vin Baker, Marbs, etc, are examples and before them Isley, Shandon and old Freddie Weis are examples of this. Great talent, and were over paid thus became available. I put Chris Webber and Artest in the same catagorie with different results. Artest folds under pressure. Paul Pierce ego elbow last year was soft. Portland Trailblazers a few years back were talented but soft.

What larry bought to the pistons was the toughness to get the job done. I doubt if larry had any say Darko would not have been his draft pick.

Bill Davidson thought Larry was not a nice person. Well you know, it ain't always about being nice, and in this day and age I think Larry is likely right that 4-5 years is enough with the same group cuz these young millionaire divas won't want to hear too much of him.

I think that being universally liked as a coach is not all that effective. Larry brings a big cred, a big contract, and has enough balls to bring the hammer down hard and not care who likes him and who does not.

If Reezy is successful, he will love larry for pushing him to that edge and being real with him. If not, Reezy will be gone and hate larry for the same reason.

We all had a teacher or coach who pushed us and we might have hated them. BUt in time, we come to understand what it was all about. And I for one appreciate those people in my life more than the ones whom were just nice.

Bobby Knight was either loved or hated by some players. Isiah will flat out tell you his hall of fame career is due to Knight pushing him hard.

[Edited by - nalod on 01-05-2006 09:35 AM]


Nalod, great post, great! when I first moved to georgia I was a soph in college, I had this accounting professor who was tough as hell but fair. His motto was " you never have time to do it right the first time, but you always have time to do it over". That stuck with me, because he was all about doing it right the first time, he was tough, but fair, he pushed you to do things the right way, and do it the first time. That has stuck with me all my life. I went back a few years ago to see this professor. He died of a heart attack, I wanted to tell him how much he influenced my life, LB is the same way with players, you either get better, or you are gone, simple and plain, everyone is treated the same, if you want to learn and get better, LB will be the coach you love... Trevor needs to learn this, it seems as if Lee and frye has caught ont...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bippity10
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1/5/2006  10:55 AM
It's a shame that so many people don't see this. It's about setting standards and sticking to it. Those people that never have set standards and are handed everything underachieve. You can call it jerking around but let's see how David Lee and Channing progress.

As for Calhoun not asking lottery talent to transfer, I don't think you know the guy very well. Doug Wrenn who I know well, was a lottery talent that did not feel like he had to earn anything. He was "asked" to transfer after several off-court and in practice incidences. Even before his off-court trouble he was being run out of the program. He then went to Washington where he Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooved the coach. why? because the coach let him do whatever he wanted. Where is he now?

Don't let the media's handling of the Marcus Williams situation fool you. Calhoun is the ultimate at playing mind games and takes no shiot. I've seen him bench starters for full games for simply not getting back on defense. Try doing that in the pros. It would be an international incident where everyone said the coach was an idiot for benching a multi-millionaire for not earning his paycheck.

When Channing and Reezy and David and the rest do things LB's way they will never leave the court. Until then it's all up to them. They have to earn it. It will hurt our team today and tomorrow but in the future you will thank LB. Just like Chauncy does.
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fishmike
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1/5/2006  12:23 PM
I'm learning to chill on this stuff. Its been 3 months. You can take the "Dream job" stuff with a grain of salt but its obvious that Larry see's this as a project. He's going to totally break it down.

I think he purposely made the line ups crazy just for that reason. He didnt want guys to get a rythem and be comfortable, because they werent where he wanted them yet. So he made them think every minute they were on the floor.

I'm resigned to this season essentially being lost for the sake of learning. If we come out of this with Curry in shape and Frye/Lee/Nate starter caliber players than its a success IMO
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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1/5/2006  12:26 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I'm learning to chill on this stuff. Its been 3 months. You can take the "Dream job" stuff with a grain of salt but its obvious that Larry see's this as a project. He's going to totally break it down.

I think he purposely made the line ups crazy just for that reason. He didnt want guys to get a rythem and be comfortable, because they werent where he wanted them yet. So he made them think every minute they were on the floor.

I'm resigned to this season essentially being lost for the sake of learning. If we come out of this with Curry in shape and Frye/Lee/Nate starter caliber players than its a success IMO


I agree, good post, but I would love to see a run at the 8th seed, it would be fun to watch Brown in the playoffs with a lower seed like the knicks, could get interesting if this team is playing well, not interesting enough to win a round, but to make a team sweat.... Hey one can wish, can't he?
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
growing pains for ariza + james (article)

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