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djsunyc
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12/8/2005  1:35 PM
Plus-Minus 82 games 


       OnCourt  OffCourt  Team Net 
         +/-      +/-       +/-

Butler  +16.4    -5.7      +22.1
Frye    +7.6     -13.7     +21.3 
Ariza   +6.3     -8.4      +14.7 
Nate    +4.3     -6.7      +11.0 
Taylor  +3.7     -4.6       +8.3
Lee     +3.9     -4.0       +7.9 
Penny   +3.0     -3.2       +6.2
Jamal   -1.9     -4.2       +2.3
Rose    -4.1     -2.1       -2.1 
Q       -6.5     -0.4       -6.1 
James   -10.9    -2.2       -8.7 
Marbury -4.7     +5.9      -10.6 
Curry   -11.5    +1.8      -13.4 
Davis   -20.0    +14.0     -34.0
AUTOADVERT
djsunyc
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12/8/2005  1:36 PM 

Marbury   -4.7     +5.9      -10.6


this is a shocking #. we're +5.9 with him OFF the floor.
why is this? i am NOT hating...i repeat, i am NOT hating. i'm just trying to figure this out.
somebody help me understand.
fishmike
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12/8/2005  1:38 PM
Crawford is bouncing back and doing well. Nate is great against the opposing team's bench. Ad makes me froth at the mouth at this point and Frye should be starting and getting 35+ minutes. If he fouls out so be it
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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12/8/2005  1:40 PM
easy, it's also who you are the floor with (AD, Curry) and who you play agaist (starts). The Knicks' record is a losing one, so you can understand where the minus comes from, and the plus for the bench players in a little indicative of our second liners beating the bejesus out of other non-starters.
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fishmike
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12/8/2005  1:43 PM
Posted by djsunyc:


Marbury   -4.7     +5.9      -10.6


this is a shocking #. we're +5.9 with him OFF the floor.
why is this? i am NOT hating...i repeat, i am NOT hating. i'm just trying to figure this out.
somebody help me understand.
simple... last year the backup was Moochie Norris. This year Crawford or NAte are getting those minutes and that bench unit of Craw/Nate/Frye/Butler/Butler/Ariza has been great against other team's benches.

Also Marbury gets at least 8-10 minutes w/ AD to start every game and that alone could be killing his rating

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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12/8/2005  1:47 PM
yes, i agree steph starting with that lineup is just AWFUL. he needs help there.

some more stats:

this is clutch play - 4th quarter and overtime, less than 5 mins left


Min    Net  PtsOff   PtsDef   Net48  
99%   -15   104.0    122.2   -18.1


[Edited by - djsunyc on 12-08-2005 1:47 PM]
djsunyc
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12/8/2005  1:50 PM
this is so bad. we need to start craw and frye already so we can finally fully assess what we have. the nate/AD starting experiment has to stop. i want to see marbury start a game for once with people he can pass to and not have to shoulder the load. then i guess i can really see if he fits or not.
SlimPack
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12/8/2005  1:58 PM
i beleive that marbury is definately showing signs of improvement under brown in terms of defense and when to score on offense, but starting with rose and AD is probably enough to make even tim duncans net +/- negative.
bobs3304
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12/8/2005  2:03 PM
marbury's defensive intensity has picked up for sure.

it's just that the rest of his game is the same.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
Nalod
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12/8/2005  2:11 PM
Marbs is almost always playing on so far a losing team. Skewed stat.

Our junk times almost always yields a comeback of some sorts. Thus some 2nd unit guys look even better~!
crzymdups
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12/8/2005  2:20 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by djsunyc:


Marbury   -4.7     +5.9      -10.6


this is a shocking #. we're +5.9 with him OFF the floor.
why is this? i am NOT hating...i repeat, i am NOT hating. i'm just trying to figure this out.
somebody help me understand.
simple... last year the backup was Moochie Norris. This year Crawford or NAte are getting those minutes and that bench unit of Craw/Nate/Frye/Butler/Butler/Ariza has been great against other team's benches.

Also Marbury gets at least 8-10 minutes w/ AD to start every game and that alone could be killing his rating

absolutely agree on both points. Marbury starts the first and third quarters with the worst players on the team. Sometimes he's on the bench when Frye goes off, which Craw and Nate benefit from.

AD is a sack of dog crap.
¿ △ ?
SlimPack
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12/8/2005  3:14 PM
Posted by crzymdups:


AD is a sack of dog crap.

I second that

[Edited by - slimpack on 12-08-2005 3:14 PM]
Allanfan20
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12/8/2005  3:27 PM
If Frye is going to be in the starting lineup, it's not going to do crap unless he's actually featured in the offensive plan. He had 4 shots last night. 4! The night before it was 8 and he hit 6. Last night he hit 3. So in 2 games, he hit 9 of 12 shots. Does anyone see a problem? How about this? Lets start Marbury, Crawford, Malik, Frye and Curry. And for maybe once in our lives, we have somebody setting the picks for Frye instead. He's out there setting picks, and now teams are catching on to that pick and roll. When he scores, good things happen. It will totally take a major load off Marbury and those +/- will be changing. Plus you got Crawford who is also becoming the leader of this team and our best overall scorer. Why put him on the bench at this point? If it weren't for Curry last night, we would have been in a big hole. But soon the D collapsed and we were exposed once again. Time for changes.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
bobs3304
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12/8/2005  3:41 PM
^I'd like to see Frye post up more. He's got switch it up, be more versatile, even if he's still NBA raw.

And as for Marbury.

Well, I think we ALL know that in the near future this team is gonna become Crawford and Curry's team, along with whoever else we have.

Not really sure you can even argue that.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
djsunyc
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12/8/2005  3:45 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

^I'd like to see Frye post up more. He's got switch it up, be more versatile, even if he's still NBA raw.

And as for Marbury.

Well, I think we ALL know that in the near future this team is gonna become Crawford and Curry's team, along with whoever else we have.

Not really sure you can even argue that.

i think the writing was on the wall for a while now...we just have to see how it plays out.

there really is only 3 pieces that are not going to be moved - craw, frye, and curry. everyone else is fair game.
BlueSeats
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12/8/2005  4:03 PM
Posted by djsunyc:


Marbury   -4.7     +5.9      -10.6


this is a shocking #. we're +5.9 with him OFF the floor.
why is this? i am NOT hating...i repeat, i am NOT hating. i'm just trying to figure this out.
somebody help me understand.

Come on dj, stop being so politically correct about all this and own your feelings. Just trust your instincts already. Not the hyped and under-informed ones many of us started with, but the ones you've come to intellectually with careful study and consideration over the ~2 years he's been here. No offense but it's becoming painful to watch you try to deny your feelings from yourself.

We pay him 19M/yr; we've cleared the roster of his enemies from Lenny thru KVH, JYD, TT, Houston and Kurt; He's still essentially referred to as untouchable ("we don't get down like that"); and he thinks himself the best at his position clear as rain. With all that going for him we have a right to expect him to look confident and competent.

You're a season ticket holder, damn it, like I was for 12 years. You've earned the right to say that you're tired of waiting on this guy and he's not working out and he's not a good fit. I know there are many who will think less of you as a fan, but you sir are entitled to your own mind and no one can take your pride away from you.

Just say it already!!!!
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
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Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
12/8/2005  4:15 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by djsunyc:


Marbury   -4.7     +5.9      -10.6


this is a shocking #. we're +5.9 with him OFF the floor.
why is this? i am NOT hating...i repeat, i am NOT hating. i'm just trying to figure this out.
somebody help me understand.

Come on dj, stop being so politically correct about all this and own your feelings. Just trust your instincts already. Not the hyped and under-informed ones many of us started with, but the ones you've come to intellectually with careful study and consideration over the ~2 years he's been here. No offense but it's becoming painful to watch you try to deny your feelings from yourself.

We pay him 19M/yr; we've cleared the roster of his enemies from Lenny thru KVH, JYD, TT, Houston and Kurt; He's still essentially referred to as untouchable ("we don't get down like that"); and he thinks himself the best at his position clear as rain. With all that going for him we have a right to expect him to look confident and competent.

You're a season ticket holder, damn it, like I was for 12 years. You've earned the right to say that you're tired of waiting on this guy and he's not working out and he's not a good fit. I know there are many who will think less of you as a fan, but you sir are entitled to your own mind and no one can take your pride away from you.

Just say it already!!!!

ALRIGHT!!! I'LL SAY IT!!!

STEPHON MARBURY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT MESSAGE BOARD PEOPLE!!!!
Pharzeone
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12/8/2005  4:18 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by bobs3304:

^I'd like to see Frye post up more. He's got switch it up, be more versatile, even if he's still NBA raw.

And as for Marbury.

Well, I think we ALL know that in the near future this team is gonna become Crawford and Curry's team, along with whoever else we have.

Not really sure you can even argue that.

i think the writing was on the wall for a while now...we just have to see how it plays out.

there really is only 3 pieces that are not going to be moved - craw, frye, and curry. everyone else is fair game.

My thinking is just the opposite. I think that Craw will be the first to go. I think as soon as the Knicks can find a reasonable taker, he is gone, especially if Woods turns out to be decent enough. Craw is like doubling down on blackjack. His inconsistency issue hasn't changed much since his days in Chicago. Doesn't look like it will for sometime either. I am not a big Craw fan but I would be a little disappointed because he has skills but lacks gray matter.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
djsunyc
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12/8/2005  4:19 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

Come on dj, stop being so politically correct about all this and own your feelings. Just trust your instincts already.

Just say it already!!!!

in all seriousness, i knew the writing was on the wall from the summer and anybody that doesn't see what's going to happen is pretty much in denial. steph has a lot of fans but i think it's past that point already. i think the organization is seriously looking at turning the page and i think it's going to come very unexpectedly...
djsunyc
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12/8/2005  4:23 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

My thinking is just the opposite. I think that Craw will be the first to go. I think as soon as the Knicks can find a reasonable taker, he is gone, especially if Woods turns out to be decent enough. Craw is like doubling down on blackjack. His inconsistency issue hasn't changed much since his days in Chicago. Doesn't look like it will for sometime either. I am not a big Craw fan but I would be a little disappointed because he has skills but lacks gray matter.

craw is not going to go anywhere and it's not just my opinion. there are things said by many people that support this. hey, look, nobody is 100% untouchable but craw is pretty close. again, this is not opinion.
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