[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Revisiting the Derrick Rose Trade


Author Poll
TPercy
Posts: 8010
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

The trade
NYK trades Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant, and Jose Calderon to the Bulls for Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday, and a 2nd round pick 2017

Context
-Knicks coming off 32-50 season
-Knicks had a maximum of 30mm cap space
-Knicks roster featured: Calderon/Grant, Afflalo/LG/Sasha, Melo/LT/Dwill, KP/KOQ, Lopez/Seraphin

Why we traded(potential reasons)
-Team is devoid of talent bar KP/Melo
-Jeff needs an attacking pg
-Get a former mvp pg who maybe just needed a change of scenery
-Get out of Jose Calderons 7.5 mm per year deal

Aftermath
-We are in the NBA lottery
-We signed Noah to a terrible contract
-Rose proves to be a toxic player(taking stabs at the coach and going AWOL
-Holiday has went from journeyman to having potential as a role player as Grant has made gradual progression in his game amid tough pg competition
-Lopez isn't playing as great as he was when he was here. WS have gone down, though I suspect the quick tempo play didn't suit him. Nevertheless, his contract was golden.

Good trade or Bad Trade? Was it worth taking the risk and bringing Derrick Rose in? Would you still make this trade again?

Two things I have learned:
1) You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Bringing in Derrick Rose and expecting them to together in a choesive manner could never have happened. Rose regressed and showed little respect for authority and Melo went from DadMelo to gethismanouttahereMelo.

2) Cap space is overrated. The point of creating cap space is to sign players that would improve the roster and add more wins. Did killing Calderon's contract do anything? No, it did nothing and we got nothing out of it.

5 votes
21.74%
Good trade
12 votes
52.17%
Bad trade
6 votes
26.09%
Hard to say


Author Thread
arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
3/30/2017  9:52 PM
If he will be gone (most likely) it is water under the bridge.
Just cleaned up 25 mils of cap and get good backup player in Holiday.
Also Rose help us to get to the lottery so thank you very much.
This year as well as 2 more (if Melo stays) are irrelevant as far as record goes...
More over it is better if we will be in the lottery until Melo is gone.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
AUTOADVERT
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

3/30/2017  9:54 PM
In hindsight it would have been better off keeping lopez instead of the horrible noah signing. As for Rose i was never a fan of his on or off the court but i gave him a chance and it didnt work. We gained a high second rounder at least. Not a terrible trade but nothing good either
ekstarks94
Posts: 21065
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/5/2015
Member: #6104

3/30/2017  10:25 PM
I know he was originally a throw in but the keeper in this deal was holiday....Derrick Rose contract year....head down and straight to the tin
TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

3/30/2017  10:27 PM
Horrible trade

Two roads

A) Rose plays lights out and make a huge impact FOR ONE YEAR. In which case the Knicks are pressured to give a max deal to a low positional value player who doesn't play team ball, can't hit a 3 at a league average rate, doesn't care about defense, has off the court issues and has an injury history. And the contract would likely encompass his clear decline phase.

B) He's mediocre to bad, in which case the Knicks will let him walk, with NO COMPENSATION, after trading 3 cost controlled years of Jerian Grant ( he's not working out for the Bulls, but this is a "principle" issue) and 3 bargain rate years of a center who wanted to be here, was durable, and would have retained his trade value through his entire contract, while helping the team now and in the future in Robin Lopez.

The fallout was signing Noah to cover for Lopez's loss.

This fundamentally a horrible trade on all levels.

My guess is no one else wanted Rose and no one else would have paid much for him, as he's a huge contract and has all these drawbacks, but the Knicks gave something far more for him than most other teams.

The whey protein you see in stores for guys who lift, it was a byproduct of producing other dairy products. They used to, long ago, throw them away. Those "buffalo wings", the reason bars had them was no one wanted them at one point, they were dirt cheap, and thus were easy snack food to encourage more drinking. Obviously those things are worth something more now. What you didn't see was a bar paying 2017 prices for wings for 1985 prices for wings.

Rose was crap the Bulls were likely going to just let loose for nothing. Then the Knicks paid the premium price for him.

"Why would you throw that away when I'll give you my daughters virginity and my pride and these 1000 gold coins for it? Why?"

Trading for Rose, when the Knicks did, would be just as insane as the Jets trading for Tony Romo right now, knowing full well the Cowboys are going to have to cut that dude in a few weeks anyway.

This was a lose/lose trade from the beginning. If Rose worked out, it offered lots of future risk and problems. If it ended badly, which was more predictable, it offered loss of assets with no return and hurting the actual morale and chemistry of the team.

Would Daryl Morey make this trade? No
Would Danny Ainge make this trade? No
Would Pat Riley make this trade? No
Would Rich Cho make this trade? No
Would Sam Presti make this trade? No
Would rookie Sean Marks make this trade? No
Would RC Buford make this trade? No
Would Bob Myers make this trade? No
Would Masaj Ujiri make this trade? No

Would Vlade Divac make this trade? Maybe.

This trade has ripple that hurts the Knicks for THE NEXT THREE YEARS.

You can say "live and learn" in the NFL, when you can just cut dudes with no mercy and often with no long term impact on your cap. In the NBA, with GUARANTEED CONTRACTS, this kind of stuff is brutal.

Do you know why Jackson made this trade? He had a long relationship with Bill Paxton, that's it. Because he's clearly too busy to scout college players or answer phone calls.

Mark Cuban did something no other owner in the NBA has ever done. When Nash walked in FA and Dampier dogged it and Mike Finley was rotting on his roster, he said - Blame me. It's my fault. I made some bad decisions and no one else is to blame and this franchise will suffer for years because of it. But the flip side was you could see the base reasoning in risking big money on a center, and a wing who had previously produced.

There is just no logical reasoning for signing Noah and trading for Rose. There is no win/win scenario in either case. It was a move by a lazy dumb inexperienced team president looking to cash his comfy big retirement checks.

smackeddog
Posts: 38391
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/30/2005
Member: #883
3/31/2017  3:16 AM
I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
3/31/2017  5:37 AM
The Rose trade was fine. I understood it.

Where Phil completely failed was to not grab Rubio for Rose at the deadline and run away as fast as he could. One of the more confusing failings of his entire tenure.

¿ △ ?
franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
3/31/2017  6:25 AM
The Noah deal was part and parcel of this trade - you can't say we cleared cap, because with Noah, we didn't.

And Lopez's #s are pretty much the same - plays every game, puts up decent, but unexceptional numbers.

Bulls are fighting for the 8 seed, we're fighting for completely different seeding.

Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
3/31/2017  7:10 AM
smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.
nykshaknbake
Posts: 22247
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/15/2003
Member: #492
3/31/2017  9:07 AM
Hard to say. The players from either side really haven't lit their teams on fire. Justin holiday has a chance to be a lasting piece. We already have players at Chang, so I don't necessarily miss Lopez. I think u have to view it separately from the noah signing. That one is its own blunder.
Nalod
Posts: 72100
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
3/31/2017  9:13 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:Hard to say. The players from either side really haven't lit their teams on fire. Justin holiday has a chance to be a lasting piece. We already have players at Chang, so I don't necessarily miss Lopez. I think u have to view it separately from the noah signing. That one is its own blunder.

Not necessarily, we did not know if KOQ would step up as he did this year or Willy would be this good.
Again, at the time you sign Noah, he perhaps demonstrates a good health and over his injuries. really, he had an awful year but no major injury! Not to say they don't matter. They do, they are like the ones an out of shape player would get.
I would assume the chemistry gains form Rose and Noah could have been good.
WE haven only frustration to show for signing Noah.

GustavBahler
Posts: 42864
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

3/31/2017  10:06 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/31/2017  10:09 AM
Holiday turned out to be more of an asset than I anticipated, but this trade was still a mistake IMO.
Dont care what Lopez is doing with the Bulls. With the Knicks he took the toughest defensive assignment in the paint, cleared out defenders, boxed out, which made it easier for KP to work.

They were one of the better front lines in the league. Pretty sure KP would have shown more progress if Lopez were still here.

Willy can score in the paint like nobody's business, but he also gives up buckets like nobody's business. Lopez could have helped smooth the transition over the next few years, while Willy expands his game on offense and defense. Not to mention, it was a great contract for the Knicks.

Rose was a one year rental, spent most of the season looking for his own shot. Phil was on the right track, was no need to get Noah and Rose. We still need an above average defender in the paint, in addition to a PG. Holiday is a nice addition, hope he sticks around, but in the end, he is the only player acquired through trade (or signing) from the Bulls who held up their end of the bargain.

SupremeCommander
Posts: 34074
Alba Posts: 35
Joined: 4/28/2006
Member: #1127

3/31/2017  10:59 AM
If we're going to look at this in a vacuum, I'd rather have THJ and Lopez than what we have now
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
nykshaknbake
Posts: 22247
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/15/2003
Member: #492
3/31/2017  11:10 AM
Nalod wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:Hard to say. The players from either side really haven't lit their teams on fire. Justin holiday has a chance to be a lasting piece. We already have players at Chang, so I don't necessarily miss Lopez. I think u have to view it separately from the noah signing. That one is its own blunder.

Not necessarily, we did not know if KOQ would step up as he did this year or Willy would be this good.
Again, at the time you sign Noah, he perhaps demonstrates a good health and over his injuries. really, he had an awful year but no major injury! Not to say they don't matter. They do, they are like the ones an out of shape player would get.
I would assume the chemistry gains form Rose and Noah could have been good.
WE haven only frustration to show for signing Noah.

True, but the thread is talking in retrospect. I thought originally the trade was fine to somewhat good. Rose should have had more of an impact as a penetrating guard. Didn'the think we would lose that much D compared to Calderon. I say the Noah signing is in isolation because he wasn't the only option we could have gone with at C.

smackeddog
Posts: 38391
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/30/2005
Member: #883
3/31/2017  11:40 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

KnicksFE
Posts: 20634
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/13/2011
Member: #3561

3/31/2017  11:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/31/2017  11:57 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

Really Dude? One of the reason why we are getting a high draft pick this year is because that trade backfire, that trade WAS NOT done with the intent of tanking, the high pick is a result of the Knicks poor season and VERY POOR DECISIONS.

smackeddog
Posts: 38391
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/30/2005
Member: #883
3/31/2017  12:16 PM
KnicksFE wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

Really Dude? One of the reason why we are getting a high draft pick this year is because that trade backfire, that trade WAS NOT done with the intent of tanking, the high pick is a result of the Knicks poor season and VERY POOR DECISIONS.

So you'd rather we had a worse pick? What are you complaining about the trade for? Who cares if it backfired if we end up with a top pick?

Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
3/31/2017  12:19 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.


I didn't say that. I care about the team having the right philosophy and approach to decision making much more than any one draft selection.
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/31/2017  1:09 PM
How about trading Lopez for picks and then plan for the tank that way you don't give Noah 17m and Lee. 11m to play on a team that's going no where.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
3/31/2017  1:19 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:How about trading Lopez for picks and then plan for the tank that way you don't give Noah 17m and Lee. 11m to play on a team that's going no where.

Sure, if the plan was to tank, there were many things that could have been done much smarter from day 1 for Phil.
wargames
Posts: 22833
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/27/2015
Member: #6053

3/31/2017  1:36 PM
It was a bad trade except it got money off the books. The problem is we had money off the books last year and signed Noah. If Phil spends that money on a PJ Tucker or a Jrue Holiday as a fill in player its an even worse trade because we had trade Grant on a rookie deal and Lopez on a very good deal to do it.
The algorithm gives and the algorithm takes away
Revisiting the Derrick Rose Trade

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy