newyorknewyork wrote:If you look at the options. We could have tried to trade Melo to the Bulls after telling Melo we weren't willing to pay him the amount he wanted. But Melo would be able to veto any trade and sign with the Bulls out right. And there is no guarantee that the Bulls would have been willing to take on a contract for Melo at the price he wanted while also giving up a ton of assets. Especially if they new the Knicks weren't going to give him the money he wanted leaving Melo with no real leverage to do a S&T over an out right free agency signing. They had enough fall back options(lotto pick Dougie and amnesty for Gasol) to not need to over pay for Melo. The fantasy of Phil trading Melo to the Bulls for all there assets is just fantasy given there flexible situation.

If we let Melo walk, we don't have our 2016 first round pick. All the cap space we would have would only mean that we would still need to throw max at any upcoming free agent to come to our rebuilding situation or it wouldn't be worth it. We would need to use the cap space to collect assets which we could do now even with having Melo on the team.

Any outcome that was produced this season could be met with critique. If the Knicks were playing good enough for a 3-6 seed in the East. Ppl would be able to complain how its because the east is weak and we aren't a real contender and we are only hurting our shot at a high lotto blue chip prospect. We will be losing 90% of our roster anyway and that every other team has a better situation then NY going forward. If the Knicks were fighting for 7-8 seed. Then ppl would be able to complain that we are a mediocre team in a weak conference not good enough to get past the first round but still losing out on a high lotto blue chip prospect. And every team in the league will have a better situation for free agent going forward and we will have to overpay free agents to come here. If the Knicks suck really bad. Ppl have been complaining that Melo isn't a real superstar. We will get a high lotto pick but Phil will screw it up because he resigned Melo and traded Tyson. We will have to overpay free agents to come here or its not worth it. And every other team in the league will be able to offer better situations to free agents then the Knicks.

In other words,it's a catch 22 no matter how you look at it.

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:If you look at the options. We could have tried to trade Melo to the Bulls after telling Melo we weren't willing to pay him the amount he wanted. But Melo would be able to veto any trade and sign with the Bulls out right. And there is no guarantee that the Bulls would have been willing to take on a contract for Melo at the price he wanted while also giving up a ton of assets. Especially if they new the Knicks weren't going to give him the money he wanted leaving Melo with no real leverage to do a S&T over an out right free agency signing. They had enough fall back options(lotto pick Dougie and amnesty for Gasol) to not need to over pay for Melo. The fantasy of Phil trading Melo to the Bulls for all there assets is just fantasy given there flexible situation.

If we let Melo walk, we don't have our 2016 first round pick. All the cap space we would have would only mean that we would still need to throw max at any upcoming free agent to come to our rebuilding situation or it wouldn't be worth it. We would need to use the cap space to collect assets which we could do now even with having Melo on the team.

Any outcome that was produced this season could be met with critique. If the Knicks were playing good enough for a 3-6 seed in the East. Ppl would be able to complain how its because the east is weak and we aren't a real contender and we are only hurting our shot at a high lotto blue chip prospect. We will be losing 90% of our roster anyway and that every other team has a better situation then NY going forward. If the Knicks were fighting for 7-8 seed. Then ppl would be able to complain that we are a mediocre team in a weak conference not good enough to get past the first round but still losing out on a high lotto blue chip prospect. And every team in the league will have a better situation for free agent going forward and we will have to overpay free agents to come here. If the Knicks suck really bad. Ppl have been complaining that Melo isn't a real superstar. We will get a high lotto pick but Phil will screw it up because he resigned Melo and traded Tyson. We will have to overpay free agents to come here or its not worth it. And every other team in the league will be able to offer better situations to free agents then the Knicks.

In other words,it's a catch 22 no matter how you look at it.

I thought that most would be glad that we had a summer coming up with a draft pick and cap space. I don't see how it can be a catch 22 when those things are 100% positive for a franchise. Until you actually see who is signed and drafted it's hard to be negative about the prospects of those options to rebuild the team.

The New York Knicks are 30 games into an 82-game season. It’s still too early to make any sweeping conclusions about any one players’ performance.

But based on what we’ve seen thus far, a good portion of the players acquired by team president Phil Jackson over the summer haven’t performed to expectation.

Here’s a quick look:

Carmelo Anthony: Anthony is scoring fewer points per game this season than he had in his previous two, but a better way to judge his impact on offense is this: With Anthony on the floor, the Knicks are scoring 107.4 points per 100 possessions. That would be the sixth-highest rate in the league. When he’s off the floor, they rank 27th. His defense has been an issue this season, though. He ranks 78th out of 80 small forwards in defensive real plus-minus.

Jose Calderon: Calderon has admittedly struggled with his consistency since returning from a calf injury that forced him to miss the first 13 games. He’s playing the same minutes that he was last season but scoring two fewer points per game. The veteran point guard also hasn’t had the effect on Carmelo that many thought he would when Jackson acquired him in a trade from Dallas. Case in point: Melo is shooting 26 percent from beyond the arc with Calderon on the court and 41 percent with him off the floor.

[+] EnlargePhil Jackson
Seth Wenig/AP Photo
Phil Jackson's fresh crop of Knicks haven't panned out as planned.
Samuel Dalembert: He was recently taken out of the starting five by head coach Derek Fisher and appears to be a bad fit for the triangle offense. The Knicks’ offensive rating is 13 points higher when Dalembert is on the bench. It's fair to say Dalembert hasn’t yet made the impact that Jackson had hoped for when he acquired him in the Tyson Chandler trade.

Jason Smith: Jackson used the Knicks’ tax-payer’s exception to sign Smith to a one-year, $3.3 million contract over the summer. Through the first 30 games, Smith hasn't yet met the team's expectation. Opponents have outscored the Knicks by 12.6 points per 100 possessions when Smith is on the floor. His rebounding rate -- the number of available rebounds he grabs while on the floor -- is a career-low 8.4.

Shane Larkin: The Knicks struggled when Larkin started in place of Jose Calderon, going 3-10. Overall, Larkin is shooting 41 percent from the field and averaging 5.5 points per game and 2.2 assists in 23 minutes. To be fair to Jackson here, the team didn’t plan on having Larkin play such a prominent role when it acquired him from Dallas in the Chandler trade.

Quincy Acy: Forced to start at power forward due to an injury to Andrea Bargnani, Acy has filled in admirably. But he seems to hurt the Knicks on offense. New York scores 7.7 points more per 100 possessions when Acy is off the floor. Again, to be fair to Jackson, he never intended for Acy to play a starter’s role.

Cole Aldrich: Aldrich’s numbers have remained fairly consistent from last season to this one, though his rebounding rate and blocks have decreased. It’s probably fair to say that Aldrich has performed the way Jackson and the Knicks coaching staff expected.

Travis Wear: Wear has shown a knack for operating in the team’s triangle offense. The Knicks are nearly 12 points better per 100 possessions when Wear is on the court compared to when he is off the floor.

Cleanthony Early: Early underwent arthroscopic knee surgery a little more than two weeks into the season, so it is too early to draw any conclusions on the rookie.

Travis Outlaw: Knicks waived Outlaw -- and his guaranteed money -- to make room for Travis Wear.

Thanasis Antetokounmpo: It's way too early to make any judgments on Antetokounmpo, who has been impressing coaches with his play on the Knicks’ D League team.

So far every move that phil made this off season has been a disaster, Including bringing Fisher here.
How exactly am I suppose to be optimistic about the future. Dolan is probably saying, this is why I always have to jump in and shake sht up, I give people the keys to the franchise and they burn down the house, and smack up the phantom.

Now the question is if Phil sees what must be done to turn this around before its too late and can he sell Dolan on it. Million dollar question.

Im not into conspiracy or anything but since we all hindsight Miss Cleo's these days with defacto insight I'd say that line tells a big story as to expectations.

One might project that phil was all about getting a good draft pick and Melo can run amuck and pad his stats for a year! Why would melo do that? Cuz he getting paid!!!!

Seems to me the only ones really getting frustrated are fans with higher expectations.

I'd rather turn the clock forward cuz this is not about "the now", its about the future.

You want to change the culture, then you must first purge. This happens this summer. Then two years of roster inclusions. This is about years 4 and 5 in PHils tenure. He might stay longer. Maybe shorter.

Who knows. But you can't build a contender with the pieces as they were in a year. You can't do it without a damn good draft pick.

No guarantees by the way. This might turn into a colossal piece of shyt as it was under Isiah. we'll see!

Nalod wrote:I recall early that Melo was like "well do what we can with what we got".

Im not into conspiracy or anything but since we all hindsight Miss Cleo's these days with defacto insight I'd say that line tells a big story as to expectations.

One might project that phil was all about getting a good draft pick and Melo can run amuck and pad his stats for a year! Why would melo do that? Cuz he getting paid!!!!

Seems to me the only ones really getting frustrated are fans with higher expectations.

I'd rather turn the clock forward cuz this is not about "the now", its about the future.

You want to change the culture, then you must first purge. This happens this summer. Then two years of roster inclusions. This is about years 4 and 5 in PHils tenure. He might stay longer. Maybe shorter.

Who knows. But you can't build a contender with the pieces as they were in a year. You can't do it without a damn good draft pick.

No guarantees by the way. This might turn into a colossal piece of shyt as it was under Isiah. we'll see!

This is about Melo ... if its year 4 or 5 in this tenure that we are waiting for then in retrospect, would Phil have resigned Melo knowing and seeing what he sees?

It sounds like you are saying YES.

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:I recall early that Melo was like "well do what we can with what we got".

Im not into conspiracy or anything but since we all hindsight Miss Cleo's these days with defacto insight I'd say that line tells a big story as to expectations.

One might project that phil was all about getting a good draft pick and Melo can run amuck and pad his stats for a year! Why would melo do that? Cuz he getting paid!!!!

Seems to me the only ones really getting frustrated are fans with higher expectations.

I'd rather turn the clock forward cuz this is not about "the now", its about the future.

You want to change the culture, then you must first purge. This happens this summer. Then two years of roster inclusions. This is about years 4 and 5 in PHils tenure. He might stay longer. Maybe shorter.

Who knows. But you can't build a contender with the pieces as they were in a year. You can't do it without a damn good draft pick.

No guarantees by the way. This might turn into a colossal piece of shyt as it was under Isiah. we'll see!

This is about Melo ... if its year 4 or 5 in this tenure that we are waiting for then in retrospect, would Phil have resigned Melo knowing and seeing what he sees?

It sounds like you are saying YES.

All of those who wanted Melo back seemed to believe it was reasonable to expect that to result in a contending team within two years.

But that was always thoroughly illogical considering the woeful talent base Phil started with.

That basically means the reality was automatically defaulted to the following assumption:

Resigning Melo would work by some time in his 3rd to 5th years of his contract by which time enough talent would have been assembled around him.

That means re-signing Melo was banking on him being a viable, highly productive player as he was approaching his 15th year in the league.

How is that reasonable? It is not.

Sure, some players have longevity and remain productive, but they are not the norm. Melo is no Duncan or Jabbar. He is breaking down and because he is an idiot basketball player, how is he going to age well being just a chucker? I know some think his natural offensive skills won't abandon him, but I see no signs of him being effective as he physically declines considering how often he performs erratically in his current condition.

Re-signing Melo was ill-conceived and not a logical plan, but here we are. The level of denial was strong, but many now see Melo for what he is. The club is so bad now it will likely get better next season by default. But that does not mean a rebuild around a Melo in decline has any likelihood of success.

I would love to know what Phil the Coach Zenned Up

While on the Lakers bench and his Lakers were disposing Melo's Nuggets

You say Ill-Conceived and not knowing where Phil sits

In this delicate, intricate, complicated, Triangle that is Dola-Mela-Phila

Here's what Phil said early on

Carmelo Anthony has established himself as one of the top scorers in the NBA.

But Phil Jackson believes he can do more.

Jackson on Sunday said Anthony "has just touched the surface of his greatness and I think we have a guy that has a lot more to offer."

Jackson, speaking at the New Yorker festival in Manhattan on Sunday, added that the 30-year old Antony "is still young enough to have some great years ahead of him."

Jackson was one of the biggest reasons that Anthony returned to New York over the summer. He turned down other max contract offers to sign a five-year, $124 million deal with the Knicks.

Anthony took $5 million less than the maximum contact the Knicks could offer.

Jackson said it will give the Knicks short-term flexibility before the expected salary cap increase in two years resulting from the new TV deal.

"Carmelo took less money -- even though it seems rather minuscule -- but it's enough for us to have flexibility in the coming year and then as the years go on the pie's going to get bigger, things will happen," Jackson told New Yorker moderator Ben McGrath.

Jackson also talked on Sunday about his expectations for the Knicks this season.

"Last year this team didn't make the playoffs. The year before they won a playoff series and they lost to Indiana. Can they jump and go to, say, the finals of the Eastern Conference? That would be a tremendous year for us," Jackson said. "To get to the Finals, I think would be unexpected. So we have to progress and I think understand the progression.

"First of all, we learn how to play together, then we learn how to bond together, then we learn how to do the things that are difficult in playoff matches together before we can be just vaulted into a championship level team. So we still have some growth to go. I'm not throwing anything out, I'm hopeful. We all are. The big key is making it to the playoffs and then what happens?"

Phil pushed chips to the table All-In for Melo and Playoffs

As the saying goes, Go Inside an Egyptian Pharoah's Pyramid Burial

You're not going to tunnel your way out through back channels

Instead you'll die with all the treasures there