[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

who is our worst defender


Author Poll
knicks1248
Posts: 22059
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
this is a hard one folks
11 votes
45.83%
copeland
10 votes
41.67%
novak
0 votes
0%
melo
3 votes
12.5%
amare


Author Thread
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/29/2013  10:20 PM
I don't think Melo is in STATS level and I dont't think STAT is on NOvak's level and I don't think Cope is on Novak Level. Melo can play great to good defense. STAT can play good to avg. Novak is decent to poor. Cope is bad and worse.
AUTOADVERT
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/29/2013  10:21 PM
Yes, Melo and STAT can get in that bad to worse level too.
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
3/29/2013  10:28 PM
so melo gets a pass because he plays d when he wants, and amare gets one cause he was never taught..Thats BS in my book, thats flat out being lazy..copeland is almost a lost case on the defensive end, novak tries but he has no foot work whatsoever
ES
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/29/2013  10:41 PM
knicks1248 wrote:so melo gets a pass because he plays d when he wants, and amare gets one cause he was never taught..Thats BS in my book, thats flat out being lazy..copeland is almost a lost case on the defensive end, novak tries but he has no foot work whatsoever

I didn't say that at all. I gave my opinion and included that STAT and MElo both can get into that lower level of defensive play. You asked who is the worst defender and even you said Cope is a lost cause and Novak gives effort but his footwork is not there which is on the lines of what I said.

The best thing about Novak maybe that players try to force the issue on him and can rush there shot. There was an interesting piece about Novak's D earlier in the year and players having "Novak eyes". Even poor offensive players try to drive on Novak.

IronWillGiroud
Posts: 25207
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/17/2012
Member: #4359

3/29/2013  10:43 PM
I think Copedawg, because he is considered an all-around player, he can score in many ways and he is just supposed to be able to drop buckets on bot ends of the floor,

Novak, you know what Novak is, he's a long range guy, he's a specialized asset, so you have to deploy him with this in mind,

to my mind, Novak should not be on this poll

The Will, check out the Official Home of Will's GameDay Art: http://tinyurl.com/thewillgameday
tj23
Posts: 21851
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/20/2010
Member: #3119

3/29/2013  11:38 PM
Melo is a bit lazy but is not a bad defender. Novak is a good team defender but he gets taken off the dribble too much. Copeland plays some awful d pretty consistently but he does put in some effort and makes some good plays. Amare is always a major liability in every aspect. This is a no brainer.
NYDiva
Posts: 21168
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/14/2012
Member: #4387

3/29/2013  11:43 PM
Stat, Novak, and Cope are all just naturally bad defenders. Stat has poor fundamentals in general. Doesn't box out, poor defensive positioning, etc. Now that he's lost a chunk of his athleticism, he's even worse. Cope has bad defensive instincts and Novak tries but he is just slow. Melo is an average defender who is capable of very good defense when he asserts himself.
DJMUSIC
Posts: 22906
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/30/2007
Member: #1283

3/30/2013  12:36 AM
you forgot Raymond Felton

he is as bad as Amare

Turntable Musiclover & Mix-Master-ologist
tj23
Posts: 21851
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/20/2010
Member: #3119

3/30/2013  1:22 AM
DJMUSIC wrote:you forgot Raymond Felton

he is as bad as Amare


I wouldn't go that far but I could argue he's our second worst defender. He is just constantly getting beat and picking up fouls. This guy has got to be just exhausted and/or hiding an injury. He's just so slow now.
blkexec
Posts: 28337
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 9/3/2004
Member: #748
3/30/2013  4:28 AM
Whos the worst defender? The fare weather knick fans that said this team is too old to compete at a high level. The fans that said they are going to be nets fans if linsanity walks. The fans that always creates negative threads during these glorious times of being a knick fan.

A time we haven't seen since some of you were in diapers, yet we continue to dwell on the negatives. News flash fellas, we actually have a solid team now that even non knick fans can respect. Now its time for the fans to change. I know the losing was tough over the last 15 yrs. But we have way more positives than negatives this year. Lets keep this momentum going into the playoffs.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
3/30/2013  8:25 AM
I know defense is an area of the game where not everything shows up on the stat sheet. Still I'm shocked when I look at Novak's opponents' PER. The man he's guarding averages a 15.1 PER and 15.0 is the league average (see link below). Last year his opponent was actually at 12.6.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK.HTM

For the record, I think WS and WP are better stats than PER but opponents' WS or WP is not tracked and PER is the best thing available. PER is not a great stat but it is fair to say from looking at the numbers that Novak's opponent doesn't kill the Knicks like some here make it sound

Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
3/30/2013  8:26 AM
DJMUSIC wrote:you forgot Raymond Felton

he is as bad as Amare


I was gonna say Felton too.
TeamBall
Posts: 24343
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/13/2012
Member: #4386

3/30/2013  9:10 AM
I'd say our worst is Cope but our laziest is Melo
Knicksfan: Hypocrite league that fines players after the game for flopping but in the game and with obvious flopping they call the fouls.
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
3/30/2013  9:49 AM
If Cope could defend he would be a ROY canidate and in line for a nice contract. Not sure that he is even in the league next year despite his offense.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
blkexec
Posts: 28337
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 9/3/2004
Member: #748
3/30/2013  9:56 AM
Ok....to answer the question. Novak is the worst defender but he's improving.
Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/30/2013  11:12 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I know defense is an area of the game where not everything shows up on the stat sheet. Still I'm shocked when I look at Novak's opponents' PER. The man he's guarding averages a 15.1 PER and 15.0 is the league average (see link below). Last year his opponent was actually at 12.6.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK.HTM

For the record, I think WS and WP are better stats than PER but opponents' WS or WP is not tracked and PER is the best thing available. PER is not a great stat but it is fair to say from looking at the numbers that Novak's opponent doesn't kill the Knicks like some here make it sound

It does help that he more than likely guards players with the worst PER or offenssive skills.

Anji
Posts: 25523
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 4/14/2006
Member: #1122
USA
3/30/2013  4:13 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I know defense is an area of the game where not everything shows up on the stat sheet. Still I'm shocked when I look at Novak's opponents' PER. The man he's guarding averages a 15.1 PER and 15.0 is the league average (see link below). Last year his opponent was actually at 12.6.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK.HTM

For the record, I think WS and WP are better stats than PER but opponents' WS or WP is not tracked and PER is the best thing available. PER is not a great stat but it is fair to say from looking at the numbers that Novak's opponent doesn't kill the Knicks like some here make it sound

It does help that he more than likely guards players with the worst PER or offensive skills.

That's the worst part about Novaks defense, we always put him on the worst player the other team has and he still gives up points. I think the only reason you wouldn't name Novak the worst is because of expectations, he is a white stiff so people accept anything that looks like trying from him on D.

"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
3/30/2013  5:20 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:so melo gets a pass because he plays d when he wants, and amare gets one cause he was never taught..Thats BS in my book, thats flat out being lazy..copeland is almost a lost case on the defensive end, novak tries but he has no foot work whatsoever

I didn't say that at all. I gave my opinion and included that STAT and MElo both can get into that lower level of defensive play. You asked who is the worst defender and even you said Cope is a lost cause and Novak gives effort but his footwork is not there which is on the lines of what I said.

The best thing about Novak maybe that players try to force the issue on him and can rush there shot. There was an interesting piece about Novak's D earlier in the year and players having "Novak eyes". Even poor offensive players try to drive on Novak.

who ever novak is guarding best believe there shot attempts go up..

ES
yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/30/2013  6:27 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:so melo gets a pass because he plays d when he wants, and amare gets one cause he was never taught..Thats BS in my book, thats flat out being lazy..copeland is almost a lost case on the defensive end, novak tries but he has no foot work whatsoever

I didn't say that at all. I gave my opinion and included that STAT and MElo both can get into that lower level of defensive play. You asked who is the worst defender and even you said Cope is a lost cause and Novak gives effort but his footwork is not there which is on the lines of what I said.

The best thing about Novak maybe that players try to force the issue on him and can rush there shot. There was an interesting piece about Novak's D earlier in the year and players having "Novak eyes". Even poor offensive players try to drive on Novak.

who ever novak is guarding best believe there shot attempts go up..


Here is the old article I was referring to.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/53195/the-defense-of-a-shooter


The defense of a shooter

By Henry Abbott

Steve Novak
Bruce Bennett/Getty Images
Steve Novak's elite NBA skill is shooting and his defense is a joke. Right?

Digging around Synergy Sports' advanced statistical service, I noticed something surprising: Steve Novak has the same overall defensive rating as his Knicks teammate Tyson Chandler.

Chandler is, by reputation, typically a candidate for defensive player of the year.

Novak is, by reputation, typically a candidate for worst defensive player of the year.

I love surprises like this. Why? Because statistics are handy when they confirm stuff we thought we knew, but they're way cooler when they make us think in new ways. That's when teams can get good players on the cheap, draft smarter and generally make better decisions.

And this surely blows our minds. I tweeted that Novak has high defensive ratings. The reaction was swift, emphatic, and negative -- especially from Knicks fans, who you'd think might be happy to learn of their players' evidently hidden talents. Not so:

Two things about Synergy matter here:

They're not really in the business of rating players. They're in the business of charting plays. This matters, as you'll see.
Every single number in their massive database is backed with video. In other words, don't take their word for it. Click the button and watch for yourself.


What Synergy does, and what most NBA teams pay mightily for, is employ an army of people to watch every second of hoops in the NBA and other leagues and categorize every single play various ways -- for instance, as a spot-up, isolation or pick-and-roll. Then those plays are fed into an ever-changing database where you can look up all kinds of things that were never available any other way.

Statistics aren't the final word in much of anything in basketball, especially when it comes to defense, which is really not well-converted into numbers anywhere. Any individual defensive ratings are guaranteed, at this point in history, to miss a lot.

But that doesn't mean there aren't lessons in there, if you dig carefully. And those Synergy loggers have found 209 plays this season where in their view Novak's defense was on display. These fall into set categories. Every play is a spot-up, pick-and-roll, isolation, post-up, "off screen," or hand off. And what you can see for yourself is that opponents scored a measly 158 points on those 209 plays. I think we can agree that's an excellent rate -- in 209 plays against other NBA defenders, you'd expect many more points.

That does NOT mean that Synergy, or anyone else, recommends deploying Novak as a go-to stopper. And other stats, for instance from 82games, show that the Knicks' defense is better when Novak is on the bench. The eyes may not lie: Presumably, Novak's shortcomings are hurting the Knicks in ways that Synergy is not catching. He is likely not a great defender.

But the way Synergy works, all of those plays so neatly logged really do mean that if you insist he's a horrible defender, you have 22 minutes of video to explain, and that's just from this season. Those plays are real, they exist, they're recent, and they show opponents struggling to score against Novak for some reason or another.

I just watched 'em all. And there are some interesting things going on for sure.

The first is that Novak is pretty slow laterally. And, frankly, longitudinally. Sometimes this matters. For instance, at Sacramento on Dec. 28, Novak chased Jimmer Fredette to the wing. Once there, Fredette caught the ball and used the amazing technique of ... turning quickly in the other direction, back from where he came. Novak, who turns like a cruise ship, had no hope. Fredette's path to the hoop was broad and wide. In these moments, tweets like those above are born.

Speed kills, and it kills Novak more than many. And that's also easy to see in pick-and-rolls.

The Knicks have rim protectors such as Chandler and Marcus Camby playing behind Novak. Against a lot of offensive players, Novak trails his man around the screen in a pick-and-roll, presumably at Mike Woodson's direction. This leaves Novak's man with a live dribble, a path to the basket and Novak a step behind looking slow-footed.

But no matter how this moment advertises Novak's lack of speed, with Novak a half-step behind and Chandler or Camby at the rim ... that's still a tough situation for the offense. Pause and Novak is back in position. Attack the rim and face a bona fide shot-blocker. Pull up and rush a floater and you're selecting a shot very few NBA players make regularly.

Novak consistently looks like a bad defender, moving slowly in open space. But that is not the same as consistently making it easy for opponents to score, and he is long, tall (6-foot-10) and focused. And while he gets around picks slowly, the worst NBA defenders don't get around the pick at all for lack of fighting -- it's called "dying on the pick" and it's fairly common. By not falling asleep at the wheel, having long arms and almost never biting on fakes, Novak is absolved of some of his sins of slowness -- as evidenced by opponents' poor field goal percentage.

More obvious than Novak's lack of speed, however, are the wide eyes of his opponents. Basically, what the video shows is player after player with an almost visible thought bubble over their heads: HOLY COW I HAVE STEVE NOVAK ON ME AND HE'S HORRIBLE. TIME TO FIRE AWAY.

Why is Novak's reputation so bad? He is slow. He is scrawny. Whatever a defensive stopper looks like -- he's not it. Race is probably part of it, too; whiteness does not help a defensive reputation in the NBA, something players and coaches occasionally will admit.

Whatever the motivation, the video is a parade of aggressive decision-making by the second-tier offensive players Novak typically guards. Hoopdata tells us the Kings' James Johnson makes less than a third of his shots outside the paint. But that didn't stop him pulling up for a long 2-pointer -- among the least efficient shots in the game for any player -- over Novak. Whatever the Knicks' chances of getting a stop on that play might have been, they went way up when Johnson elected to heave from a step inside the 3-point line.

The Suns' Markieff Morris -- hardly the team's first scoring option -- couldn't wait to post Novak up, did so, and missed. A week and a half earlier, Markieff's twin brother, Marcus, wasted two Rockets possessions with a brain on "Novakaine," dribbling his way into contested long 2s, neither of which came close. A host of Timberwolves -- for instance, Derrick Williams in the post and J.J. Barea with a step-back off the dribble -- powered up tough shots with Novak Eyes. The Bulls took turns going after Novak, which resulted in unheralded Jimmy Butler and Marco Belinelli forcing 2s off the dribble over a taller player.

No matter how bad Novak may be on defense, goading those weak offensive players into the weakest parts of their arsenals is good for New York. All those shots that might have been taken by James Harden, Kevin Love and company.

Players want to go at Novak -- typically in isolation plays -- presumably because he's slow. And of all the ways to exploit Novak's slowness, isolating him is among the least effective. One-on-one plays take place in a small area and Novak seldom loses his man entirely. The result is normally a contested shot. Novak's defensive ratings are, in fact, especially elite in isolation. Synergy is often dinged for sloppy charting, but this is the least complicated play in basketball and easy to chart. Teams isolate him, and score about half a point -- pathetic -- per possession.

This dynamic of players delighting in attacking Novak, often foolishly, explains both Novak's bad reputation and his excellent Synergy numbers. Novak is in all likelihood an OK defender who people think is a horrible defender. Offensive players see him coming and lose their minds with the conviction that it's time to shoot, even if the shot is both difficult and contested.

The whole thing works out reasonably well for the Knicks. They get to keep a deadly but admittedly unathletic shooter -- Novak's New Year's resolution is to dunk -- on the floor without paying much of a price on defense, because his reputation tricks opponents into poor decisions.

yellowboy90
Posts: 33942
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/23/2011
Member: #3538

3/30/2013  6:29 PM
That article is old and his play may have or may have not slipped.
who is our worst defender

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy