NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

foosballnick wrote:Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done. Owners are often only as good/bad as the executives and management they put in place.

NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

Dolan with Red Auerbach would still get an F.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done.

It's not like we as fans can do anything about the coaches or players either though.

True, but not the point. GMs and Coaches come and go, Owners do not.

foosballnick wrote:Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done. Owners are often only as good/bad as the executives and management they put in place.

NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

Good points.

Dolan is well intended but impatient and prone to letting his emotions drive him.

I thought the defense of Isiah was about the worst example of leadership I have ever seen.

If there was a benchmark to justify keeping Isiah I could understand.

1. Payroll was CRAZY out of hand.

2. Every coaching decision was improper. Was disrespectful to Chaney who did an honorable job and was a loyal coach to the organization thru good and thin times. Chaney did a good job with a challanged roster. The negotiations with Fratello was a failure and his panic hiring of Lenny was pathetic. Larry from every aspect was an epic failure. Dolan as punishment installed Isiah as coach after numerous statement it was not to happen. The wins and Loses in this whole era comapared to the money spent is nothing short of crazy and we don't even get to his antisemitic remarks and Anucha! This is Dolans managing all this.

3. Good job hiring Walsh and MDA. We had to rebuild but we build up assets and had to shed contracts. MDA had to bide his time.

4. Dolan was the lead in recruitment of Lebron and reported was clownlike in his presentations. Grunny was still no. 2 and could have done it if Walsh was not "presentable".

5. Dolan over steps Walsh in the MeloDrama and loses Walsh in the process. The man who bought some cred back to management was pushed off by his impatience. Maybe his fear of the russian was getting to him.

6. The ending of Linsanity reeks of Dolans impatience and emotionality.

My thinking is if Dolan or any strong man of character showed strong conviction in Walsh and MDA and let them build from that Lebron would be a knick. Why would Lebron want to be part of a dysfuntional organization like one we have demonstrated to be. Riley and Aronson are cool dudes very secure in who they are and what they are doing. Riles got the bag of bling and the cool to paint a vision. Dolan got his insecurity and had Isiah still in his ear and trying to recruit Isiah.

An emotional uncool insecure man trying to live up to the legend of his father "The King" who build the empire.

That is James Dolan.

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done. Owners are often only as good/bad as the executives and management they put in place.

NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

Dolan with Red Auerbach would still get an F.

Not true at all. A good GM will manage both the owner and resources appropriately. Just gave you examples to prove it....same owners with different management, yielded drastically different results.

Dolan doesn't work that way. He gives a new GM power for a year or so. Then he gets excited about big name players and starts making bad decisions that the GM and everyone else disagree with.

Your answer is conjecture or an assumption. You do not know this to be true, perhaps he has not found the correct management to fit the team's and his needs.

I generally place blame where it is due, not based on emotion. Dolan has mostly failed so far with the Knicks.....not because of coaching decisions or players, but because of the management teams of basketball people he has put in place to run the team for him.

To put every coaching change on Dolan is folly. His GMs have been mainly responsible for that.....with a few exceptions such as Isiah who Dolan put in as coach after numerous Isiah bad choices.

In regards to player decisions.......the biggest failure was not getting Lebron........

Lebron was not coming to the Knicks no matter how good or bad the presentation was. If the presentations mattered, then by all counts, Lebron would have went to Brooklyn. The Lebron road show was a joke....it was always Miami based on his kinship with Wade and Bosh. Most of the blame for not getting Lebron and the ensuing Amare overpay contract is on Walsh. Donnie cleared all that cap space, in some ways through making bad trades, for the purpose of getting Lebron. He did not read the tea leaves correctly.....and in his haste, over-paid for Amare to lure Lebron....and failed.

Getting Melo, was also fallout for not getting Lebron. Donnie may or may not have wanted Melo. But he stayed after acquiring Melo. In fact, Donnie stayed on payroll after Dolan put him out to pasture....and when the contract expired, then went to Indiana. What does that say?

MDA might not have gotten along with Melo, but he quit on the team mid-year. What does that say about him?

IMO.....people are ready to make Donnie out to be a saint, and MDA as some type of Matyr since they hate Dolan so much. While Walsh and MDA were much better than Isiah and most of his choices, They were still not the correct tandem to bring a winning structure to the Knicks.

So far, Grunald and Woodson seem to be a mgmt team that will make Dolan look like a better owner....time will tell.

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done. Owners are often only as good/bad as the executives and management they put in place.

NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

Dolan with Red Auerbach would still get an F.

Not true at all. A good GM will manage both the owner and resources appropriately. Just gave you examples to prove it....same owners with different management, yielded drastically different results.

Dolan doesn't work that way. He gives a new GM power for a year or so. Then he gets excited about big name players and starts making bad decisions that the GM and everyone else disagree with.

Your answer is conjecture or an assumption. You do not know this to be true, perhaps he has not found the correct management to fit the team's and his needs.

I generally place blame where it is due, not based on emotion. Dolan has mostly failed so far with the Knicks.....not because of coaching decisions or players, but because of the management teams of basketball people he has put in place to run the team for him.

To put every coaching change on Dolan is folly. His GMs have been mainly responsible for that.....with a few exceptions such as Isiah who Dolan put in as coach after numerous Isiah bad choices.

In regards to player decisions.......the biggest failure was not getting Lebron........

Lebron was not coming to the Knicks no matter how good or bad the presentation was. If the presentations mattered, then by all counts, Lebron would have went to Brooklyn. The Lebron road show was a joke....it was always Miami based on his kinship with Wade and Bosh. Most of the blame for not getting Lebron and the ensuing Amare overpay contract is on Walsh. Donnie cleared all that cap space, in some ways through making bad trades, for the purpose of getting Lebron. He did not read the tea leaves correctly.....and in his haste, over-paid for Amare to lure Lebron....and failed.

Getting Melo, was also fallout for not getting Lebron. Donnie may or may not have wanted Melo. But he stayed after acquiring Melo. In fact, Donnie stayed on payroll after Dolan put him out to pasture....and when the contract expired, then went to Indiana. What does that say?

MDA might not have gotten along with Melo, but he quit on the team mid-year. What does that say about him?

IMO.....people are ready to make Donnie out to be a saint, and MDA as some type of Matyr since they hate Dolan so much. While Walsh and MDA were much better than Isiah and most of his choices, They were still not the correct tandem to bring a winning structure to the Knicks.

So far, Grunald and Woodson seem to be a mgmt team that will make Dolan look like a better owner....time will tell.

+Trillion

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done. Owners are often only as good/bad as the executives and management they put in place.

NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

Dolan with Red Auerbach would still get an F.

Not true at all. A good GM will manage both the owner and resources appropriately. Just gave you examples to prove it....same owners with different management, yielded drastically different results.

Dolan doesn't work that way. He gives a new GM power for a year or so. Then he gets excited about big name players and starts making bad decisions that the GM and everyone else disagree with.

Your answer is conjecture or an assumption. You do not know this to be true, perhaps he has not found the correct management to fit the team's and his needs.

I generally place blame where it is due, not based on emotion. Dolan has mostly failed so far with the Knicks.....not because of coaching decisions or players, but because of the management teams of basketball people he has put in place to run the team for him.

To put every coaching change on Dolan is folly. His GMs have been mainly responsible for that.....with a few exceptions such as Isiah who Dolan put in as coach after numerous Isiah bad choices.

In regards to player decisions.......the biggest failure was not getting Lebron........

Lebron was not coming to the Knicks no matter how good or bad the presentation was. If the presentations mattered, then by all counts, Lebron would have went to Brooklyn. The Lebron road show was a joke....it was always Miami based on his kinship with Wade and Bosh. Most of the blame for not getting Lebron and the ensuing Amare overpay contract is on Walsh. Donnie cleared all that cap space, in some ways through making bad trades, for the purpose of getting Lebron. He did not read the tea leaves correctly.....and in his haste, over-paid for Amare to lure Lebron....and failed.

Getting Melo, was also fallout for not getting Lebron. Donnie may or may not have wanted Melo. But he stayed after acquiring Melo. In fact, Donnie stayed on payroll after Dolan put him out to pasture....and when the contract expired, then went to Indiana. What does that say?

MDA might not have gotten along with Melo, but he quit on the team mid-year. What does that say about him?

IMO.....people are ready to make Donnie out to be a saint, and MDA as some type of Matyr since they hate Dolan so much. While Walsh and MDA were much better than Isiah and most of his choices, They were still not the correct tandem to bring a winning structure to the Knicks.

So far, Grunald and Woodson seem to be a mgmt team that will make Dolan look like a better owner....time will tell.

+Trillion

You guys have spent a lot of time criticizing others without exposing your views. What grade did you give Dolan and why?

Dolan as an owner is a failure, F.

In regards to management, like Foosballnick eloquently broke down, it's up to the management team and day to day operations personnel, scouts, trainers, etc to make the product look good. Has Dolan meddled in the past, perhaps. I truly don't think any of the recent Grunwald moves have any of Dolan's fingerprints on it. When he is hands off, his product can be damn good; IE see the NY Rangers. With Glenn Grunwald and Mike Woodson in place, they appear to strike that balance with Dolan's company line but also make sound basketball decisions.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

toodarkmark wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Not really worth continually dwelling on just the owner as there is really nothing that can be done. Owners are often only as good/bad as the executives and management they put in place.

NY Giants are considered a well run organization, but Wellington Mara would have received an F grade in the late 60s thru to 1980. He would have received an A or B from then until 1992. The difference? George Young and Bill Parcells.

George Steinbrenner would have gotten an A from 1975 to 1981 with Gabe Paul as one of his early architects. From 82 through 93......an F and a ban from baseball. After that, an A with Gene Michael building a solid foundation of core players while King George was away, combined with bringing in Joe Torre.

Dolan with Isiah and various coaches.......an F. Dolan with Walsh and MDA.....probably a D. Dolan with Grunwald and Woodson, too soon to tell.

Dolan with Red Auerbach would still get an F.

Not true at all. A good GM will manage both the owner and resources appropriately. Just gave you examples to prove it....same owners with different management, yielded drastically different results.

Dolan doesn't work that way. He gives a new GM power for a year or so. Then he gets excited about big name players and starts making bad decisions that the GM and everyone else disagree with.

Your answer is conjecture or an assumption. You do not know this to be true, perhaps he has not found the correct management to fit the team's and his needs.

I generally place blame where it is due, not based on emotion. Dolan has mostly failed so far with the Knicks.....not because of coaching decisions or players, but because of the management teams of basketball people he has put in place to run the team for him.

To put every coaching change on Dolan is folly. His GMs have been mainly responsible for that.....with a few exceptions such as Isiah who Dolan put in as coach after numerous Isiah bad choices.

In regards to player decisions.......the biggest failure was not getting Lebron........

Lebron was not coming to the Knicks no matter how good or bad the presentation was. If the presentations mattered, then by all counts, Lebron would have went to Brooklyn. The Lebron road show was a joke....it was always Miami based on his kinship with Wade and Bosh. Most of the blame for not getting Lebron and the ensuing Amare overpay contract is on Walsh. Donnie cleared all that cap space, in some ways through making bad trades, for the purpose of getting Lebron. He did not read the tea leaves correctly.....and in his haste, over-paid for Amare to lure Lebron....and failed.

Getting Melo, was also fallout for not getting Lebron. Donnie may or may not have wanted Melo. But he stayed after acquiring Melo. In fact, Donnie stayed on payroll after Dolan put him out to pasture....and when the contract expired, then went to Indiana. What does that say?

MDA might not have gotten along with Melo, but he quit on the team mid-year. What does that say about him?

IMO.....people are ready to make Donnie out to be a saint, and MDA as some type of Matyr since they hate Dolan so much. While Walsh and MDA were much better than Isiah and most of his choices, They were still not the correct tandem to bring a winning structure to the Knicks.

So far, Grunald and Woodson seem to be a mgmt team that will make Dolan look like a better owner....time will tell.

+Trillion

You guys have spent a lot of time criticizing others without exposing your views. What grade did you give Dolan and why?

Dolan as an owner is a failure, F.

In regards to management, like Foosballnick eloquently broke down, it's up to the management team and day to day operations personnel, scouts, trainers, etc to make the product look good. Has Dolan meddled in the past, perhaps. I truly don't think any of the recent Grunwald moves have any of Dolan's fingerprints on it. When he is hands off, his product can be damn good; IE see the NY Rangers. With Glenn Grunwald and Mike Woodson in place, they appear to strike that balance with Dolan's company line but also make sound basketball decisions.

That's a very reasonable post. I thought you were probably one of the guys who gave him an A!

You're giving me too much credit.

Dolan is what he is. He wants results as much as the next rich guy in charge. Just because we hate our dickhead owner, doesn't mean our team can't be good.