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Ramon Sessions vs Toney Douglas - Revisited
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Markji
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A full season has gone by since the Ramon Sessions debate and possible signing. And a full season (really half a season) to evaluate Toney Douglas. So, now after a year, who would you rather have on the team going into 2010?
Note: This doesn't necessarily mean as starting PG, it could be as back-up.
0 votes
0%
Ramon Sessions
20 votes
95.24%
Toney Douglas
1 votes
4.76%
Either one, they are equal


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Markji
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4/14/2010  7:57 AM
2009 - 2010 Stats

Ramon Sessions 8.2PPG 81games 21min 46FG% 7.1%3Pt% 71%FT 2.6Reb 3.1Asst 1.7TO .7Stl

Toney Douglas 8.5PPG 55games 19min 46FG% 39%3PT 80.3%FT 2.4Reb 2Asst 1.0TO .8Stl

Toney Douglas March/Apr- 12.5PPG 21games 29min 44.5FG% 41%3PT 76.5%FT% 3.1Reb 3.5Asst 1.2TO 1.2Stl

Toney Douglas, with more playing time in March and April has shown great improvement. I'm glad we have him over Sessions.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
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Cosmic
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4/14/2010  8:26 AM
Sessions sucks and I am very glad we "missed out" on him.

Toney has been terrific and looks to only get better given his drive. I can only wonder how many teams are watching Douglas and saying "How the F did we not draft this kid!"

Great steal by Walsh. GREAT.

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Paladin55
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4/14/2010  9:30 AM
I was someone who wanted Sessions, but I'm now glad that we did not sign him- and very happy with Douglas.

In Sessions' defense, though- would he have been a different player this year if he had been getting 30+MPG without having to worry about his playing time being cut because he wasn't playing well on a particular night? ...Just wondering.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
knicks1248
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4/14/2010  9:57 AM
This is exactly why I have faith in walsh not throwing a boat load of money at JJ, boozey, or any other 2nd tier FA. Do you see sessions 3pt fg%...WOW...that is god awful for a guard let alone a PG.
ES
Bippity10
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4/14/2010  10:28 AM
Most fans didn't actually evaluate Douglas or Sessions to determine who was better for the money. Instead they wanted Sessions because he wasn't here and they didn't want Douglas because he was. Bottom line is that Sessions is an average player who we wasted a lot of time arguing over.
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kam77
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4/14/2010  11:03 AM
Cosmic wrote: I can only wonder how many teams are watching Douglas and saying "How the F did we not draft this kid!"

I would say zero teams. Anyone who needed a PG took one of the 8 better PG prospects before him. You think Dallas is sad they drafted Rodrigue Beaubois as the last PG before Toney D? Think New Orleans is down on Darren Collison? Eric Maynor, JRue Holiday... nobody is crying about Toney Douglas.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
firefly
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4/14/2010  11:09 AM
kam77 wrote:
Cosmic wrote: I can only wonder how many teams are watching Douglas and saying "How the F did we not draft this kid!"

I would say zero teams. Anyone who needed a PG took one of the 8 better PG prospects before him. You think Dallas is sad they drafted Rodrigue Beaubois as the last PG before Toney D? Think New Orleans is down on Darren Collison? Eric Maynor, JRue Holiday... nobody is crying about Toney Douglas.

I disagree. a. Beaubois, while a great prospect is not now nor will ever be a point guard. Watch Dallas he NEVER handles the ball. b. Jrue Holiday. Whatever.

There were some nice PG's this draft, but im happy with TonAAAAy.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
kam77
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4/14/2010  11:44 AM
firefly wrote:
kam77 wrote:
Cosmic wrote: I can only wonder how many teams are watching Douglas and saying "How the F did we not draft this kid!"

I would say zero teams. Anyone who needed a PG took one of the 8 better PG prospects before him. You think Dallas is sad they drafted Rodrigue Beaubois as the last PG before Toney D? Think New Orleans is down on Darren Collison? Eric Maynor, JRue Holiday... nobody is crying about Toney Douglas.

I disagree. a. Beaubois, while a great prospect is not now nor will ever be a point guard. Watch Dallas he NEVER handles the ball. b. Jrue Holiday. Whatever.

There were some nice PG's this draft, but im happy with TonAAAAy.


Is DALLAS unhappy they drafted Beaubois? Are they thinking, how the F did we not draft Toney Douglas?

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
fishmike
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4/14/2010  11:57 AM
Tony is not really a PG yet. He can handle the ball but he's a poor facilitator from the offense. He is a good basketball player over all. He was the quickest player in the draft and a legit scorer and defender at the NBA level. I think the ideal thing would be for the Knicks to find a SG who can essentially play PG or a PG w/ SG size. Mike Miller and Shaun Livingston are the clear choices for me. Miller is 30, but is a great playmaker and ball handler. Livingston looks healed but is more of a gamble, however he's 24. They are ideal because they let Douglas start, play off the ball and defend the opposing PGs. I think that makes us a much better team.

If I have $35-$38mm to spend I am looking like this:
Lee $9mm (6 years $70mm)
Amare $17mm
Mike Miller $6mm or Livingston $4mm
Barron $2mm

I think that improves our biggest problems, PG defense, PG play and size.
PG Douglas
SG Miller/Livingston
SF Gallo
PF Lee
C Amare
bench: Chandler, Barron, Walker

Lets see teams match up with skilled bigs like Lee and Amare surrounded by shooters like Douglas, Gallo and Miller.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
firefly
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4/14/2010  12:00 PM
kam77 wrote:
firefly wrote:
kam77 wrote:
Cosmic wrote: I can only wonder how many teams are watching Douglas and saying "How the F did we not draft this kid!"

I would say zero teams. Anyone who needed a PG took one of the 8 better PG prospects before him. You think Dallas is sad they drafted Rodrigue Beaubois as the last PG before Toney D? Think New Orleans is down on Darren Collison? Eric Maynor, JRue Holiday... nobody is crying about Toney Douglas.

I disagree. a. Beaubois, while a great prospect is not now nor will ever be a point guard. Watch Dallas he NEVER handles the ball. b. Jrue Holiday. Whatever.

There were some nice PG's this draft, but im happy with TonAAAAy.


Is DALLAS unhappy they drafted Beaubois? Are they thinking, how the F did we not draft Toney Douglas?

No, youre right there, but hes not a "better PG prospect".

Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Finestrg
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4/14/2010  12:09 PM
Quick question -- how do you vote on these poll threads when there's no vote button??
Finestrg
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4/14/2010  12:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/14/2010  12:45 PM
This is a good thread btw -- it just goes to show that you should always consider the draft first to fill needs instead of throwing any kind of money at similar veteran types for help. Why bog the salary cap down needlessly when you can plug the same holes through the draft for a much better cost??? One of the reasons I wanna see them parlay their 2 2nd rounders (along with the necessary cash) into 2 or possible even 3 lower 1st rounders -- I like the players being talked about in the low 1st round this summer, there's nice talent there. Just my humble take - you can't possibly ever go wrong with looking for help in the draft provided you got guys doing their homework on that particular year's talent pool -- youth, talent, hungry guys ready to prove something and at a nominal cost compared to going the different route....I much prefer the way they went with Douglas over signing Ramon Sessions, if there even were any comparisons between the two within the organization at that time. Not only did they get a comparable player (probably a better player actually), they saved approx. $3-3.5 million a year over the next several years by doing so. That may not seem like that much but it's actually a nice chunk of change to keep available for bigger and better moves --- i.e. if we signed Sessions, not only would he not have made a big difference in our record this year, we probably wouldn't even be discussing 2 max FAs right now. Now, with a little tinkering (maybe buying out Curry for the little extra wiggle room), that possibility is a reality...I'd continue to concentrate on keeping as much cap room open for the players who really deserve it -- the difference makers, whether they're max guys or not. The draft will always be a useful tool for us -- continue to make the most out of it, esp. since we're rebuilding. Maybe one day we'll be the ones on top looking to sell our lower picks to rebuilding teams. Until then, I wanna see us continue to buy those picks if teams are willing to sell. There's no shame in it...
Ira
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4/14/2010  3:19 PM
It is a good thread. Douglas gives us a combination of toughness and athleticism. I think he also has the capacity to develop his game the way Lee has over the years.
kam77
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4/14/2010  3:37 PM
Finestrg wrote:Quick question -- how do you vote on these poll threads when there's no vote button??

Two reasons I can think of why you don't see it.
A) You gotta be logged in to vote.
B) You may have already voted.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
sebstar
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4/14/2010  4:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/14/2010  4:06 PM
Damn, Mark why'd you do briggs like that? He was crying at will over sessions and creating threads daily.

Sessions is a solid little point guard who can penetrate at will, but it was hard to take the hype around him serious given how atrocious of a shooter he is. I know we needed ( and still do) a point guard but I'll be damnned if we would have given that midget a multi-year deal.

We're good. big ups to walsh. Did I see that right? Duke is really shooting 7 percent from three? Thats insane.

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Bippity10
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4/14/2010  4:05 PM
sebstar wrote:Damn, Mark why'd you do briggs like that? He was crying at will over sessions and creating threads daily.

Sessions is a solid little point guard who can penetrate at will, but it was hard to take the hype around him serious given how atrocious of a shooter he is. I know we needed, and still do, a point guard but I'll be damnned if we would have given that midget a multi-year deal.

We're good. big ups to walsh. Did I see that right? Duke is really shooting 7 percent from three? Thats insane.

I'm still waiting for Markji to bring up the whole "if you don't draft BJ Mullens in the top 20 then people should be fired" rant that someone had.

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Markji
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4/14/2010  5:56 PM
sebstar wrote:Damn, Mark why'd you do briggs like that? He was crying at will over sessions and creating threads daily.

Sessions is a solid little point guard who can penetrate at will, but it was hard to take the hype around him serious given how atrocious of a shooter he is. I know we needed ( and still do) a point guard but I'll be damnned if we would have given that midget a multi-year deal.

We're good. big ups to walsh. Did I see that right? Duke is really shooting 7 percent from three? Thats insane.


If I remember correctly, Briggs recently posted that he had changed his mind about Toney Douglas. I like Briggs as he definitely speaks his mind. This thread isn't about Briggs so much as some other posters, who will be unnamed, who blasted me when I said that by April, Toney Douglas would be at least as good as Sessions or maybe even better. Vindicated!

That 7.1% from 3pt is correct. Terrible! But to give Sessions a little credit, he does know his limitations and doesn't shoot from behind the arc unless the clock is running down. This entire season, Sessions took only 14 shots from behind the arc and made 1. Yes, that is right. Only 1. Sessions could have never fit into MDA's system.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
AnubisADL
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4/14/2010  6:42 PM
LMAO at Sessions not getting a single vote.
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Paladin55
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4/14/2010  6:53 PM
Markji wrote:This entire season, Sessions took only 14 shots from behind the arc and made 1. Yes, that is right. Only 1. Sessions could have never fit into MDA's system.

Do this mean that Livingston, who is 0/6 from the arc, and is looked at with interest by many as a potential PG on this team, is not to be considered?

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Markji
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4/14/2010  7:24 PM
Paladin55 wrote:
Markji wrote:This entire season, Sessions took only 14 shots from behind the arc and made 1. Yes, that is right. Only 1. Sessions could have never fit into MDA's system.

Do this mean that Livingston, who is 0/6 from the arc, and is looked at with interest by many as a potential PG on this team, is not to be considered?


I wouldn't put him high on the list. In 6 years in the league, he has played in 192 games, taken only 32 3pt shots in his entire career, and hit 6 for an 18.8%. And 16 of those were in one season (2006-07). He did hit 31% then so maybe he can work on that?

When Walsh and MDA were hired, the idea was to get players who fit the MDA system. Livingston is OK as a ballplayer but he has been injured a lot and doesn't fit the system.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
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Ramon Sessions vs Toney Douglas - Revisited
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