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What do you need from your center?


Author Poll
Bonn1997
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What's more important? (I wanted to reduce the options from that other poll. I'll do the same poll for PGs.)
3 votes
13.04%
Offense
8 votes
34.78%
Defense
12 votes
52.17%
They're equally important


Author Thread
Bonn1997
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12/21/2006  6:42 PM
My vote's defense by far (even though offense still matters). I think you have to have a center (or big PF who's more of a C anyway) who's a presence in the middle on D to block and alter shots and bring down rebounds. You can get scoring from any position but only your big men can be big presences in the middle on D. I can't think of many championship teams that had poor defensive centers, although there are plenty that had centers who didn't score much.
AUTOADVERT
TMS
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12/21/2006  6:54 PM
history tells us you need a C who can do it all if you want to challenge for a championship... great C's who've won championships like Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Olajuwon, Reed & Robinson were all great all around players who could score, defend, block shots, pass & rebound... of all those guys, i wonder how many were already great all around players at Curry's age? anyone know?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
rojasmas
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12/21/2006  6:57 PM
First and foremost defense. Then a rebounder. Finally, 10 points a game at least.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
SugarRayRichardson
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12/21/2006  7:02 PM
First you make no distinction from how you get your scoring. Scoring 20ppg on out side jumpers on 20 shots doesnt have near the positive effect that scoring 20ppg on 12 shots in the post has. Its a totally different worled that draws doubles, gets opposing teams bigs in foul trouble and the other team in the penalty.

Second Kareem won 4 championships long past his prime with minimal defense and rebounding.

Third when did Bill Cartwright and Luke Longley become great rebounders and defenders while winning all those rings?

Lastly you see to want a pg that plays no defense and a Center that plays no offense. That doesnt look to me like a title winner.

I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Anji
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12/21/2006  7:05 PM
It's doesn't have to be so black and white. YOu need a Center that gives you production. IS a 10 point 12 rebound 2 block center better then a 20 point 8 rebound 1 block center???? NO, aslong as your center on whole produces that is all you need.......
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
rojasmas
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12/21/2006  7:07 PM
It's a general question that deserves general answers. Of course there are exceptions. Kareem just happened to play with Magic and Worthy. Cartwright just happened to play with Jordan, Pippen, and even Rodman.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
TMS
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12/21/2006  7:08 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Third when did Bill Cartwright and Luke Longley become great rebounders and defenders while winning all those rings?

sorta helps when you're playing with the greatest player ever to play the game of basketball i think.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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12/21/2006  7:11 PM
First you make no distinction from how you get your scoring. Scoring 20ppg on out side jumpers on 20 shots doesnt have near the positive effect that scoring 20ppg on 12 shots in the post has.
I wanted to be concise but let's just say "Offense" means all areas of offense (shooting, posting, passing) and "Defense" means all areas of defense (man to man, help, rotating, blocking shots, altering shots)
Second Kareem won 4 championships long past his prime with minimal defense and rebounding.
How many shots was he blocking and altering? This was a bit before my time--perhaps when the NBA was different. But I'd bet he was still a presence in the middle on D even if his lateral speed was a step slower.
Third when did Bill Cartwright and Luke Longley become great rebounders and defenders while winning all those rings?
I'd say Cartwright was at least an average defensive center.
Lastly you see to want a pg that plays no defense and a Center that plays no offense. That doesnt look to me like a title winner.
I'd prefer that to the reverse (a center who plays no D and a PG who can't run an offense) but obviously it is not ideal. You have to make sacrifices. You're not going to get fantastic two way players at all five positions. No team has that. I'm curious where people place their emphasis. For example, are you willing to sacrifice some offense from your center if he compensates with great defense? Or is the offense crucial and the defense is where you're willing to sacrifice? (I already know your answer but I'm posing the question to the board).
SugarRayRichardson
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12/21/2006  7:11 PM
Posted by rojasmas:

It's a general question that deserves general answers. Of course there are exceptions. Kareem just happened to play with Magic and Worthy. Cartwright just happened to play with Jordan, Pippen, and even Rodman.


Thats why they say whenever you generalize you are sure to be wrong on occasion. Thats around 10 rings between an old Kareem, and older Cartwright and a very bad Longley. All of whom started because the champions realized how much a post game is needed to open the floor and pick up fouls.

[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 12-21-2006 7:12 PM]
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
Anji
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12/21/2006  7:30 PM
Does duncan count as an center or a power forward who covered up the old Robinson, Nestarvic(?) and Nazr????
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Allanfan20
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12/21/2006  7:35 PM
Again, I say it's just as important to play defense, as it is to play offense.

But I think you can change the center position up a little bit. If you have a post up PF and a penetrator and shooters, then you just need a guy who can float around and will hit the open J, like Marcus Camby. But if you're surrounding him with role players who can shoot the J, and you don't really have a penetrator, then it's really best that he's a post up player. It all depends on the makeup of your team.

Just remember, there is no specific blueprint for success. History tells us you need a superstar. At least 1. If you're not gonna have one, then you better have a lot of VERY good players like Detroit. Otherwise, you need a superstar ANYWHERE.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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12/21/2006  7:36 PM
This is why Isiah F'ed up drafting Frye over Bynum. Bynum has superstar center talent. Frye doesn't, and it doesn't even seem close, at this point, for Frye.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
SugarRayRichardson
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12/21/2006  7:45 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
First you make no distinction from how you get your scoring. Scoring 20ppg on out side jumpers on 20 shots doesnt have near the positive effect that scoring 20ppg on 12 shots in the post has.
I wanted to be concise but let's just say "Offense" means all areas of offense (shooting, posting, passing) and "Defense" means all areas of defense (man to man, help, rotating, blocking shots, altering shots)
Second Kareem won 4 championships long past his prime with minimal defense and rebounding.
How many shots was he blocking and altering? This was a bit before my time--perhaps when the NBA was different. But I'd bet he was still a presence in the middle on D even if his lateral speed was a step slower.
Third when did Bill Cartwright and Luke Longley become great rebounders and defenders while winning all those rings?
I'd say Cartwright was at least an average defensive center.

Kareem was 7-4 and would block around 1 shot a game with 6-7 rebs a game at that point. Kareem was in the game for his offense not his defense at that point. Bill was at best average on d after breaking his foot multiple times.
He was good for 4-6 rpg and like .3 blocks during his run for 3 rings


[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 12-21-2006 7:48 PM]
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
King1
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12/21/2006  7:50 PM
Walton averaged about 13 rebounds and 3 blocks per game when he was with Portland. For his career he averaged 2.0 block and 10 boards
Bonn1997
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12/21/2006  8:07 PM
Posted by SugarRayRichardson:
Posted by Bonn1997:
First you make no distinction from how you get your scoring. Scoring 20ppg on out side jumpers on 20 shots doesnt have near the positive effect that scoring 20ppg on 12 shots in the post has.
I wanted to be concise but let's just say "Offense" means all areas of offense (shooting, posting, passing) and "Defense" means all areas of defense (man to man, help, rotating, blocking shots, altering shots)
Second Kareem won 4 championships long past his prime with minimal defense and rebounding.
How many shots was he blocking and altering? This was a bit before my time--perhaps when the NBA was different. But I'd bet he was still a presence in the middle on D even if his lateral speed was a step slower.
Third when did Bill Cartwright and Luke Longley become great rebounders and defenders while winning all those rings?
I'd say Cartwright was at least an average defensive center.

Kareem was 7-4 and would block around 1 shot a game with 6-7 rebs a game at that point. Kareem was in the game for his offense not his defense at that point. Bill was at best average on d after breaking his foot multiple times.
He was good for 4-6 rpg and like .3 blocks during his run for 3 rings


[Edited by - SugarRayRichardson on 12-21-2006 7:48 PM]

The Bulls also had a PF doing what you need from a C to compensate (Horace Grant). It's not ideal. You really need a C and PF who can play hard defense but you can get away with a PF providing what you need from your C if you have the greatest player ever at SG.
Bonn1997
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12/21/2006  8:13 PM
I think it would have been better if I'd worded the two polls to ask what you need from your big men (PF/Cs) and gaurds rather than specifically PGs and Cs. You can get away with an average defensive C if you have an all-star defensive PF like the Bulls example above. (I think your C still needs to not be a liability on D and your PG not a liability on offense, though.) Maybe we can treat the threads from now on as if I asked what you need from your big men and gaurds.
rojasmas
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12/21/2006  10:50 PM
Right now? The best story is Yao Ming. 27 a game and close to ten boards. Turning the Rockets around. No longer T-Mac's team.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
TrueBlue
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12/21/2006  10:52 PM
I already made a more appropriate thread.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bonn1997
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12/22/2006  9:20 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:

I already made a more appropriate thread.
That was a good thread too. I just wanted to reduce it to 3 options and compare the results with PGs. Nothing personal against your thread.
SugarRayRichardson
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12/22/2006  11:30 AM
Other champion starting Centers whose offense was much better than their defense off the top of my head.

Moses Malone
Alvin Adams
Jack Sikma
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Dave Cowens
Clifford Ray (Not great on offense of defense)
I LOVED how Curry just exploded in the 4th, speaking as a fan of the Raptors, Curry looked well, scary I think is the word. Or Shaq-like Curry: 19.1ppg-7.3rpg-58%fg
What do you need from your center?

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