About 5 yrs ago !!!!

Posted by OngBok:

About 5 yrs ago !!!!

exactly

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/20.html#a5978

Murtha on Meet the Press
check out the video

I think the tone has already been set for this thread. If discussions about trading Steph result in personal attacks I would hate to see where this thread ends up if somebody take the bait.^

I would not vote on immediate withdrawl, because that could lead to chaos, possible civil war, and the Bathe party could eventually end up back in power, making the 250B+ and 2200 lives worth nothing. I was never in favor of this war, in fact, I really only know 2 people who actually were in favor of it and they arent today.

The way to do this is to have a phased pullout with the help of the uN, making sure that the Iraqui army is prepared to handle the ground mess, and thats what it is going to be for years and years.

But enough is enough for America. We float debt on this war EVERY SINGLE day at an amount of 50-100mm$--meaning China Japan Saudia Arabia are actually paying for it, but the AMERICAN people--especially the middle classwill end up PAYING for it. Did anyone listen to the mortgage interest deduction removal rumors from your taxes?
This has NOTHINg to do with very wealthy people--this hits at the core of the middle class--this is money that people who own homes and lengthy expensive mortgages can deduct that interst from their taxes each yea, giving mainly young families with kids--the true heartbeat of the USA, a nice financial spitback each year--proabably ranging from 5k to 15k. Now thats a LOT of money to some people, necessity money, and this war THREATENS that money, which in turn threatens a WHOLE lot of potential loan defaults which would be helter skeleter on the economy.

We have to phase out of this war and do it ASAP, balancing some stability with an Iraqui army in place in comnbination with OUR own economic SURVIVAL.

Ill go back and say this, if I didnt have that interest deduction from my home that I bought years ago that I still live in, and I worked a good job + I worked a seperate job on the weekend when I first bought it, I wouldve defaulted if I didnt get that deduction break. So I fully understand that consequence of this, they CANNOT take the debt of this war and pass it on to middle class americans.

Make a special war-time luxury tax for people who have assets over 10mm$ @ 5%.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=544

Open Letter to George's Mama

...a message from Cindy Sheehan

Dear Barbara,

On April 04, 2004, your oldest child killed my oldest child, Casey Austin Sheehan.

Unlike your oldest child, my son was a marvelous person who joined the military to serve his country and to try and make the world a better place. Casey didn't want to go to Iraq, but he knew his duty. Your son went AWOL from a glamour unit. George couldn't even handle the Alabama Air National Guard. Casey joined the Army before your son became commander in chief. We all know that your son was thinking of invading Iraq as early as 1999. Casey was a dead man before George even became president and before he even joined the Army in May of 2000.

I raised Casey and my other children to use their words to solve problems and conflicts. I told my four children from the time that they were small that it is ALWAYS wrong to kick, bite, hit, scratch, pull hair, etc. If the smaller children couldn't find the words to solve their conflicts without violence, I always encouraged them to find a mediator like a parent, older sibling, or teacher to help them find the words.

Did you teach George to use his words and not his violence to solve problems? It doesn't appear so. Did you teach him that killing other people for profits and oil is ALWAYS wrong? Obviously you did not. I also used to wash my children's mouth out with soap on the rare occasion that they lied... did you do that to George? Can you do it now? He has lied and he is still lying. Saddam did not have WMDs or ties with al-Qaeda and the Downing Street Memos prove that your son knew this before he invaded Iraq.

On August 3rd, 2005, your son said that he killed my son and the other brave and honorable Americans for a "noble cause." Well, Barbara, mother to mother, that angered me. I don't consider invading and occupying another country that was proven not to be a threat to the USA is a noble cause. I don't think invading a country, killing its innocent citizens, and ruining the infrastructure to make your family and your family-friendly war profiteers rich is a noble cause.

So I went down to Crawford in August to ask your son what noble cause did he kill my son for. He wouldn't speak with me. I think that showed incredibly bad manners. Do you think a president, even if it is your son, should be so inaccessible to his employers? Especially one of his bosses whose life George has devastated so completely?

I have been to the White House several times since August to try and meet with George and I am going back to Crawford next week. Do you think you can call him and ask him to do the right thing and bring the troops home from this illegal and immoral war in Iraq that he carelessly started? I hear you are one of the few people he still talks to. He won't speak to his father, who knew the difficulties and impossibilities of going into Iraq and that's why he didn't go there in the 1st Gulf War. If you won't tell him to bring the troops home, can you at least urge him to meet with me?

You said this in 2003, a little over a year before my dear, sweet Casey was killed by your son's policies:

"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?" (Good Morning America, March 18, 2003)

Now I have something to tell you, Barbara. I didn't want to hear about deaths or body bags either. On April 04, 2004, three Army officers came to my house to tell me that Casey was killed in Iraq. I fell on the floor screaming and begging the cruel Angel of Death to take me too. But the Angel of Death that took my son is your son.

Casey came home in a flag draped coffin on April 10th. I used to have a beautiful mind too. Now my mind is filled with images of seeing his beautiful body in his casket and memories of burying my brave and honest boy before his life really began. Casey's beautiful mind was ended by an insurgent's bullet to his brain, but your son might as well have pulled the trigger.

Besides encouraging your son to have some honesty and courage and to finally do the right thing, don't you think you owe me and every other Gold Star parent an apology for that cruel and careless remark you made?

Your son's amazingly ignorant, arrogant, and reckless policies in Iraq are responsible for so much sorrow and trouble in this world.

Can you make him stop? Do it before more mothers' lives are needlessly and cruelly harmed. There have been too many worldwide already.

Sincerely,

Cindy Sheehan
Mother of Casey Sheehan
Founder and President of Gold Star Families for Peace
Founder of Camp Casey Peace Foundation

- - -
I mean so many people in Iraq are going thru somthing similar as this woman. Do you think the world opinion would allow the US to leave from Iraq still in turmoil? What would be the consequence of that?

Posted by Knight:

What a windbag Cindy is. That letter would be great to use in a logic class, it is ripe with informal fallacies.

well i'm curious about responding to this letter on that basis. what role would you give to the emotion that it expresses versus the logic that it follows?