HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

BigRedDog wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

Thibs and Leon aren't here to do a rebuild. doesn't make sense at all.

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

Thibs and Leon aren't here to do a rebuild. doesn't make sense at all.

except they are... flipped most of the roster, got younger, added FRPs, committed to player development, use the draft, kept big contracts off the books. They just didnt tank, or purposely field and NBA roster with little chance finishing games for wins. We tried to win. The team plays hard.

I guess there are different variations of rebuilds. The way the Pistons are rebuilding gives them access to all avenues to grab a franchise player. The losses are necessary because it gives them acces to High lotto picks (they had picks, 7, 1 and 5) 3 consecutive years. The best and least expensive way to get a great player is to draft one. High lotto picks can also be traded for an elite player. Once you draft these players. they are still valuable because of their potential and they are on inexpensive rookie deals. These players can be traded for established Allstars if the Pistons wanted to. Also, the Pistons had the cap space this summer to sign a really good player, but they punted and will open up that space next year.

Building the way we are, eliminates the ability to secure a top draft pick. That draft pick can be used to draft a potential franchise player that we can control on rookie deal, or trade the player for an established all star or trade the pick altogether. Of course Luck plays into this as well.

Also, the way the Pistons are building, they are getting multiple cracks at picking in the top of the lotto as opposed to one and done like us when we drafted RJ.

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

The Pistons are entering yr 4 of their rebuild. They drafted 3-4 foundational peices that they can build upon and will help them be a consistent winning team once all their young players develop. They are ready to enter the next stage so it was smart to not only add a couple of vets, but the vets they added won't block their young players development.

However. the fact that they decided to use their cap space on expiring, instead of a stud free agent makes me think they wouldn't mind losing a ton of games again to position themselves for a shot at one more top pick in a loaded draft next summer.

If our front office is able to unload Randle for a shorter contract or assets. I would give this front office a ton of props.

Trading for Burks/Noel is simply smart roster building.

Both guys can contribute immediately and are solid locker room guys. The pistons have a team option after next season so they maintain cap room and flexibility after next year.

The only big UFAs this offseason are Brunson, Ayton and Mitch. Brunson is either staying in Dallas or going to the Knicks. We are probably resigning Mitch. So that leaves Ayton who may just stay in Phoenix. Pistons are going to keep getting studs in the draft while filling out roster with useful players on expiring deals

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

Thibs and Leon aren't here to do a rebuild. doesn't make sense at all.

except they are... flipped most of the roster, got younger, added FRPs, committed to player development, use the draft, kept big contracts off the books. They just didnt tank, or purposely field and NBA roster with little chance finishing games for wins. We tried to win. The team plays hard.

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

Thibs and Leon aren't here to do a rebuild. doesn't make sense at all.

except they are... flipped most of the roster, got younger, added FRPs, committed to player development, use the draft, kept big contracts off the books. They just didnt tank, or purposely field and NBA roster with little chance finishing games for wins. We tried to win. The team plays hard.

I guess there are different variations of rebuilds. The way the Pistons are rebuilding gives them access to all avenues to grab a franchise player. The losses are necessary because it gives them acces to High lotto picks (they had picks, 7, 1 and 5) 3 consecutive years. The best and least expensive way to get a great player is to draft one. High lotto picks can also be traded for an elite player. Once you draft these players. they are still valuable because of their potential and they are on inexpensive rookie deals. These players can be traded for established Allstars if the Pistons wanted to. Also, the Pistons had the cap space this summer to sign a really good player, but they punted and will open up that space next year.

Building the way we are, eliminates the ability to secure a top draft pick. That draft pick can be used to draft a potential franchise player that we can control on rookie deal, or trade the player for an established all star or trade the pick altogether. Of course Luck plays into this as well.

Also, the way the Pistons are building, they are getting multiple cracks at picking in the top of the lotto as opposed to one and done like us when we drafted RJ.

Pistons havent won anything... that method also has yet to be proven. There's still plenty you need to execute on and the losing has its issues as well. How long did Phili lose? Milw and GS didnt tank to get good... there are several avenues to building a winner and ALL of them require good management which we are seeing now.

Expecting MSG to take a Detroit approach is really unfair/unrealistic. Its not an apples to apples compare. Also no prior regime has run the team like this. Not even close. The tank is NOT a proven. Its pure hope which is cute but no more a path than just running the team well.

Of course the Pistons haven't won anything, they are still in the middle of their rebuild. We will see how things turn out for them in several years. I am not implying that the way they are building will result in a multiple championships or anything close to that. But, if what they have done, and are doing these past 3 years, eventually catapults them into the upper half of the east, are consistently in the playoffs, make a couple of deep runs, then I think it was all worth it when you consider how bad they have been for years. Winning championships are hard. This could all backfire and they can fall flat on their faces and may have to start over again. Its a gamble.

Agreed that there are more ways to build. It takes great management, as you said, a cohesive, competent franchise from top to bottom and some luck. We've seen good teams have a down year or two, get lucky in the draft and grab a franchise-altering player (See Memphis with Morant) and they are even better than they were before. The main reason why I was focusing on Detroit is that they have been in a similar situation as us for years. Pistons have been chasing big-name free agents and or trying to trade for one, for years (Blake, Grant, etc) but have been unsuccessful. It only takes one elite player to turn things around for a franchise (as I mentioned with Ja, earlier), and the Pistons realized that and decided to use high lottery picks to try and get one instead.

Speaking of management, I agree that Rose and crew are certainly more creative and seem more competent than the previous front office regimes. The jury is still out, though. I am still in wait-and-see mode and am curious how this thing plays out down the road. Even you said you were lukewarm on this front office.

In the end, Fish, you know that I know that we will never tank or tear this thing down, completely. I said as much in multiple posts throughout this thread. Just spit-balling ideas....

Im finally seeing a little hope and vision here to be honest. Next year's draft is going to be wild and there will be all star talent available after the lottery, I can promise you that. Might be hard to find but it will be there and we will be players and possibly adding some high ceiling prospects to a winning team. No guarentees.. you can be gifted high picks and draft no brainers like Fultz or Oden. Its hard to get franchise talent in the late first round but I do like our approach.

I am really high on IQ/Grimes as more than role players. I think IQ can be another Jamal Crawford with better D and Grimes reminds me a LOT of John Starks

BigRedDog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

FYI. Detroit just signed a couple of Rose's vet pieces. Which as mentioned, all rebuilding teams
Need to do. It also looks like the Knicks are getting closer to a tear down than Detroit. If we trade Randle and EF it will be full on young movement. Tbh, would rather do that than sign Brunson to a max S&T.

Thibs and Leon aren't here to do a rebuild. doesn't make sense at all.

except they are... flipped most of the roster, got younger, added FRPs, committed to player development, use the draft, kept big contracts off the books. They just didnt tank, or purposely field and NBA roster with little chance finishing games for wins. We tried to win. The team plays hard.

I guess there are different variations of rebuilds. The way the Pistons are rebuilding gives them access to all avenues to grab a franchise player. The losses are necessary because it gives them acces to High lotto picks (they had picks, 7, 1 and 5) 3 consecutive years. The best and least expensive way to get a great player is to draft one. High lotto picks can also be traded for an elite player. Once you draft these players. they are still valuable because of their potential and they are on inexpensive rookie deals. These players can be traded for established Allstars if the Pistons wanted to. Also, the Pistons had the cap space this summer to sign a really good player, but they punted and will open up that space next year.

Building the way we are, eliminates the ability to secure a top draft pick. That draft pick can be used to draft a potential franchise player that we can control on rookie deal, or trade the player for an established all star or trade the pick altogether. Of course Luck plays into this as well.

Also, the way the Pistons are building, they are getting multiple cracks at picking in the top of the lotto as opposed to one and done like us when we drafted RJ.

Pistons havent won anything... that method also has yet to be proven. There's still plenty you need to execute on and the losing has its issues as well. How long did Phili lose? Milw and GS didnt tank to get good... there are several avenues to building a winner and ALL of them require good management which we are seeing now.

Expecting MSG to take a Detroit approach is really unfair/unrealistic. Its not an apples to apples compare. Also no prior regime has run the team like this. Not even close. The tank is NOT a proven. Its pure hope which is cute but no more a path than just running the team well.

Of course the Pistons haven't won anything, they are still in the middle of their rebuild. We will see how things turn out for them in several years. I am not implying that the way they are building will result in a multiple championships or anything close to that. But, if what they have done, and are doing these past 3 years, eventually catapults them into the upper half of the east, are consistently in the playoffs, make a couple of deep runs, then I think it was all worth it when you consider how bad they have been for years. Winning championships are hard. This could all backfire and they can fall flat on their faces and may have to start over again. Its a gamble.

Agreed that there are more ways to build. It takes great management, as you said, a cohesive, competent franchise from top to bottom and some luck. We've seen good teams have a down year or two, get lucky in the draft and grab a franchise-altering player (See Memphis with Morant) and they are even better than they were before. The main reason why I was focusing on Detroit is that they have been in a similar situation as us for years. Pistons have been chasing big-name free agents and or trying to trade for one, for years (Blake, Grant, etc) but have been unsuccessful. It only takes one elite player to turn things around for a franchise (as I mentioned with Ja, earlier), and the Pistons realized that and decided to use high lottery picks to try and get one instead.

Speaking of management, I agree that Rose and crew are certainly more creative and seem more competent than the previous front office regimes. The jury is still out, though. I am still in wait-and-see mode and am curious how this thing plays out down the road. Even you said you were lukewarm on this front office.

In the end, Fish, you know that I know that we will never tank or tear this thing down, completely. I said as much in multiple posts throughout this thread. Just spit-balling ideas....

this year is big... but assuming we get Brunson and most of the squad stays healthy it will be winning season and at worst a low playoff berth. While that's not anything special when you consider this franchise history, coming in here they will be have had a winning record 2/3 of their 3 seasons AND be future and player development oriented.

Im finally seeing a little hope and vision here to be honest. Next year's draft is going to be wild and there will be all star talent available after the lottery, I can promise you that. Might be hard to find but it will be there and we will be players and possibly adding some high ceiling prospects to a winning team. No guarentees.. you can be gifted high picks and draft no brainers like Fultz or Oden. Its hard to get franchise talent in the late first round but I do like our approach.

I am really high on IQ/Grimes as more than role players. I think IQ can be another Jamal Crawford with better D and Grimes reminds me a LOT of John Starks

Grimes reminds me more of Allan Houston

I get a Doug Christie vibe