fishmike wrote:Rose is about to entrench himself here for an extended period of time.

Knicks are gonna have a high payroll pretty soon. Brunson is good and Leon is going to sell Brunson as an example his ability to land an important player and Dolan will be impressed because the Knicks will be a lot better next year. Brunson will help but expect Randle to bounce back. RJ/Obi/IQ/Grimes should all be rotation guys tending upward. Maybe we get 50-60 games out of Rose. Maybe McBride fixes his offense and other lots of good things that can happen.

We'll resign Mitch. IDK if Fournier stays or goes, what we get Reddish or who we lose to make cap room for Brunson... but Knicks will be better. Thibs will have them overachieving in the regular season to the tune of 45-50 wins and Dolan (like in the Isiah days) will say we have arrived and extend Leon.

In the meantime Knick fans can hope IQ/Obi/Grimes/RJ/Sims or whoever blossoms into an impact player who can drag us past round 1

Agreed that Rose and CAA will be here for a long time. They've been here, in the shadows since the Melo days, I believe. Don Leon has emerged from the darkness and claimed his rightful seat at the head of the Knicks daily operations table. We should be improved, no doubt, but squeezing 50 wins out of this group may be a stretch. Have to consider the competition in the east as well. We ain't the only team that should be improved, but we will see.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

Uptown wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Crybaby fans and media clowns have lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned but unfortunately that won't shut them up. Only winning will do that and to get there I appreciate the thoughtful and creative approach of Rose and company. No guarantees ever but I favor it over the "tear it down" yelps of the crybabies and the "everything for Westbrook" gasbags. To get to great from the worst you may have to travel through the mediocre and average. Sadly that doesn't translate well into sugar rushes and shiny toys.

First and foremost, the majority of the posts that I've read from youare whining about the so-called whinners. Maybe I shouldn't take this that personally, but I don't appreciate being called a crybaby or a gasbag. I've been posting on this forum for years, and I like to think my name and credit is good here. Not one-time have I ever called anyone out-of-there name or toed-the-line of being disrespectful to any of our fellow posters.

This is a forum to share ideas, and banter back and forth with fellow knick fans, all in good fun. I am not a stream of consciousness or post whatever crosses my mind at the moment type of poster. I like to think my posts are well-thought-out. The point of this particular thread was to share an idea of a full-rebuild and how it worked for other teams in similar situations as ours, in particular, the Pistons. I know this franchise will never do that, but I still wanted to float the idea on this forum because that's kind of what we do. Share ideas, no? We discuss them for a few days and then the thread gets pushed to the bottom and disappears.

Any angst or frustration or angst you may detect in some of my words are due to being a fanatic. It's what we do from time to time. I don't attack posters but I do counter ideas if warranted. In the end, whether I am frustrated in the moment or ecstatic by an acquisition, its always orange and blue skies for me, going back to 83-84.

You are correct - I complain a lot about the complainers. You label yourself as "countering" ideas -- well that's how I see myself. And when those ideas are ****amamie or worse toxic, yeah I speak up. And please note I referred to media as gasbags and snakes. They know better but choose to engage in baiting the "crybabies and whiners" with their clickbait disinformation. Stirring the pot for their own benefit.

Draft night just seemed the worst to me in fan behavior. How many "Fire Leon" threads popped up like mushrooms? And why? Because he made some savvy moves to give us more assets and cap space? And several posters used blatant falsehoods (we gave up Duren to lose Kemba's 9 million!) to justify their temper tantrums. Meanwhile clowns like Stephen A spurred them on -- just as thy did with the great for us Porzingis trade and the bullets dodged on KD and Kyrie. Oh how the Knicks "failed."

And one more thing -- everyone biotches about Dolan ruining the Knicks -- to my mind it's these gasbags and crybabies who create a tear it down, instant gratification, starphuch as some here term it atmosphere. I'm so tired of that nonsense and we finally have an FO that isn't caving in to that crap. I don't want to see Dolan "fire Leon" and send us back another 5 years again, so yeah, I'm saying something even if it changes nothing.

BTW I sat in the blues in '83/'84 and watched a Bernard King the size of an ant do the miraculous....

Uptown wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Uptown wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Crybaby fans and media clowns have lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned but unfortunately that won't shut them up. Only winning will do that and to get there I appreciate the thoughtful and creative approach of Rose and company. No guarantees ever but I favor it over the "tear it down" yelps of the crybabies and the "everything for Westbrook" gasbags. To get to great from the worst you may have to travel through the mediocre and average. Sadly that doesn't translate well into sugar rushes and shiny toys.

First and foremost, the majority of the posts that I've read from youare whining about the so-called whinners. Maybe I shouldn't take this that personally, but I don't appreciate being called a crybaby or a gasbag. I've been posting on this forum for years, and I like to think my name and credit is good here. Not one-time have I ever called anyone out-of-there name or toed-the-line of being disrespectful to any of our fellow posters.

This is a forum to share ideas, and banter back and forth with fellow knick fans, all in good fun. I am not a stream of consciousness or post whatever crosses my mind at the moment type of poster. I like to think my posts are well-thought-out. The point of this particular thread was to share an idea of a full-rebuild and how it worked for other teams in similar situations as ours, in particular, the Pistons. I know this franchise will never do that, but I still wanted to float the idea on this forum because that's kind of what we do. Share ideas, no? We discuss them for a few days and then the thread gets pushed to the bottom and disappears.

Any angst or frustration or angst you may detect in some of my words are due to being a fanatic. It's what we do from time to time. I don't attack posters but I do counter ideas if warranted. In the end, whether I am frustrated in the moment or ecstatic by an acquisition, its always orange and blue skies for me, going back to 83-84.

Well now -- I was not "attacking" any one poster but you're coming at me so let's go.

You are correct - I complain a lot about the complainers. You label yourself as "countering" ideas -- well that's how I see myself. And when those ideas are ****amamie or worse toxic, yeah I speak up. And please note I referred to media as gasbags and snakes. They know better but choose to engage in baiting the "crybabies and whiners" with their clickbait disinformation. Stirring the pot for their own benefit.

Draft night just seemed the worst to me in fan behavior. How many "Fire Leon" threads popped up like mushrooms? And why? Because he made some savvy moves to give us more assets and cap space? And several posters used blatant falsehoods (we gave up Duren to lose Kemba's 9 million!) to justify their temper tantrums. Meanwhile clowns like Stephen A spurred them on -- just as thy did with the great for us Porzingis trade and the bullets dodged on KD and Kyrie. Oh how the Knicks "failed."

And one more thing -- everyone biotches about Dolan ruining the Knicks -- to my mind it's these gasbags and crybabies who create a tear it down, instant gratification, starphuch as some here term it atmosphere. I'm so tired of that nonsense and we finally have an FO that isn't caving in to that crap. I don't want to see Dolan "fire Leon" and send us back another 5 years again, so yeah, I'm saying something even if it changes nothing.

BTW I sat in the blues in '83/'84 and watched a Bernard King the size of an ant do the miraculous....

I did notice you mention the media, etc,. However, you also mentioned Westbrook, which was an idea me and Martin were tossing back and forth just a few posts above yours. It felt personal, but maybe I misread it.

Speaking for myself, I do not get my cues from the Stephen A Smiths of the world, as they are the ones that promote starphucking, and chasing the next big-name free agent which is the instant gratification route. That is not what I am suggesting in this thread. I created this thread to mainly talk about the idea of an actual rebuild and pointed out three teams in particular, that are entrenched in it. The title that I created doesn’t match the content. If I could revise the title, I would have called something along the lines of “rebuild, an alternate idea”. For the record, a full-blown rebuild is far from instant gratification, but is a slow, and long (and can endure lots of losing) process. One that I thought we were going to finally embrace in 2018-2019, but we quickly abandoned that idea mid-way through the 2019-2020.

There are many posters here that offer a variety of different ideas. I don’t speak for everyone, but I don’t see critiques of this franchise, as long as they are honest and factual, as toxic. Most of the differing ideas promote good discussion which is why I enjoy posting here.

No, I don’t want to see Dolan fire Leon and his regime, because if he did, the next regime that would come in would be number 9 in the last 20 years. One of the many reasons why we’ve lost so much over the years is the lack of continuity in the front office. I hope they get it right, and are able to build a foundation that can support long-term winning. Last summer wasn't a very good one, hopefully they can get it back on track this summer. We will see. And just like you are going to say something, so am I. If they get right, I will give them props, if they fail, I will call them out.

Cool that you got a chance to sit in the blue seats watch Bernard play live. In 84, I was living in my grandparents Bronx apartment, sitting on a red couch with the plastic covering. The one that if wore shorts and sat down or fell asleep, you had to peel yourself off. I watched the Knicks from that couch, Little TV on top of the Floor model TV. One for the sound, the other for the picture. Bernard looked like an ant on my little tv too.

That Knick team with Bernard coached by Hubie Brown was a good hard nosed team that eventually tested the Larry Bird Celtics in the playoffs. That year followed some very discouraging ones from Michael Ray’s “the ship be sinking” to cheering for the likes of Eddie Lee Wilkins and Ken “the Animal” Bannister. Perhaps we are again now on the eve of a rebirth 🙂

Knicks have a large stockpile of draft picks going forward. Rose was hired to make the big signings, find the breakout draft picks. Enough time has passed to expect to see some movement in that direction, in the next year.

The dynamic of winning is more complicated than good drafting though that’s important. You need a great institution and a stable identity to use to draft and develop players. You also need to win to teach how to win w any credibility or to attract FAs

In most matters not just sports success is predicated on grit (not tear downs) and the compounding effects of good habits. Couple that w flexibility to take advantage of opportunities when they arise and, yes, a little bit of luck helps too like getting players such as steph, Giannis, klay, or Joker in their slots

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.

There was a bit (maybe more than a little bit) of frustration in my original post, but if you read the breakdown of my responses to you, it follows a theme. And the theme is rebuilding. I touched on Derrick Rose only because you brought him up, but didn’t go into too much detail because I was trying to stick to the theme of this thread at least my responses to you. This is why I brought up teams like the Wiz and Kings, etc. I was focusing on the overall theme rather than the specifics of this current team outside of touching on Brunson, somewhat.

Does that mean a full rebuild or as you said “tear this **** down” philosophy of building organically is the only way to build a solid foundation that can sustain consistent winning? No. There are other ways. I am not here to be proven right or wrong, but offering an alternate idea from the one we’ve been following for the last 2 decades. Not saying that the 8 different front office regimes we’ve had here over the last 2 decades had the exact same blueprint and exact ideas, but the philosophies were similar in terms of trying to secure big-name free agents and or trade for one. But, my response to you, wasn’t meant to ignore any progress that this specific front office made, but I was just questioning whether this philosophy can sustain winning long term. Again I could be wrong.

With that said, we played well 2 years ago, not so much last year. If we can add Brunson, he will be the best pg, in his prime, that we had in the blue and orange in a very long time. His presence adds wins or at the very least adds cohesion and leadership. How much improved will we be? we will see? But, I do expect us to be better next year.

Hofstra, in the end, I’m just spitting ideas about rebuilding in which you and I both know ain't happening at MSG. The front office has done a good job of drafting, (Aller and Perrin are the best things to happen to this franchise in years/decades). I am still in a wait-and-see about the other moves. I am a passionate poster, so my counters may come off a certain way, but it's all good. #orangeandblueskies

It's all good Uptown. Agree that most Knick fans are frustrated each year. But that would be the case even if we lost in the finals. There is only ONE fan base each year that is happy if winning is the main goal. Reason why I said that where we are going is more important than where we are. You also mention rebuilding. Thought we were doing that? Grant it, with out a full tank. ie, lets get rid of every good player, vets and roll with first year kids to get our butts kicked every game. Think that is not always a guarantee. As there is always a chance you pick the Fultz's and Okafor's of the world. Are you claiming that Detroit has done it the right way? They have yet to prove or win anything? Which will probably continue if Cade, Ivey or Jaren do not pan out. They also just pivoted from Grant, a big contract. We will see if the all in on rebuild works.
One thing to remember is teams like the Sixers. A team that wanted to rebuild the right way but ended up having to sign big contracts in order to be where they are today.

A rebuild is also what I believe we have been doing. Feel a rebuilding team in one that prioritizes the draft and develops young players. Some may think that we are not developing Obi because we do not give him 35 minutes a game but they forget the old NBA in which 4 year college picks would have to sit the bench for a couple of years before they got their chance. Fans now expect 18 year old to come in and take over right away. If we we are not developing our young players then why are so many talking so highly of guys like Obi Grimes, IQ and Deuce? Nor would we be witnessing their improvement and contribution. A rebuilding team gets rid of over priced contracts and looks for chances to collect draft assets. Rose has collected many draft assets. A rebuilding team signs proven young players to good contracts. Ones that may not be the difference makers but are/will be solid NBA contributors for years to come. Rose signed one of the best young PF in the league in Randle. A rebuilding team signs SOLID vets/role players to decent contracts. Feel Noel, EF, Burks, Taj, Bullock were/are all that. Even Kemba was that but we put him in a position to be the first unit savior and not a second unit contributor like Rose. Finally a rebuilding team uses assets gained to sign a true difference maker. Feel the FO is now at that point. Question is who is he?

GustavBahler wrote:

franco12 wrote:when you make big signings like you did last year, and are worst, and then try to undo those signings - I think it is a question about management.

I dont consider Fournier/Kemba to be "big signings". Thinking more of an All-Star in his prime, a real game changer. A young (or younger) Kemba Walker could have been a game changer. We dont have one yet.Through the draft, free agency, or trade.

Didnt help the organization, that Randle took a step back last season. At least the FO was smart not to give Randle the kind of contract that would make him difficult to move if he's playing well.

We used all of our cap flexibility and got worse. Randle taking a step back is proof, people would argue, that we should not have extended him. People could argue we should have let him play out his last year, and we could have let him walk and had Obi in place to take over.

In hindsight, hard to argue some of these moves were good.

As far as moving Randle, whether his contract is easy or not to move, that is yet to be determined. Seems like we paid a lot to move Walker and his expiring deal.

KnickDanger wrote:

Uptown wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Uptown wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Crybaby fans and media clowns have lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned but unfortunately that won't shut them up. Only winning will do that and to get there I appreciate the thoughtful and creative approach of Rose and company. No guarantees ever but I favor it over the "tear it down" yelps of the crybabies and the "everything for Westbrook" gasbags. To get to great from the worst you may have to travel through the mediocre and average. Sadly that doesn't translate well into sugar rushes and shiny toys.

First and foremost, the majority of the posts that I've read from youare whining about the so-called whinners. Maybe I shouldn't take this that personally, but I don't appreciate being called a crybaby or a gasbag. I've been posting on this forum for years, and I like to think my name and credit is good here. Not one-time have I ever called anyone out-of-there name or toed-the-line of being disrespectful to any of our fellow posters.

This is a forum to share ideas, and banter back and forth with fellow knick fans, all in good fun. I am not a stream of consciousness or post whatever crosses my mind at the moment type of poster. I like to think my posts are well-thought-out. The point of this particular thread was to share an idea of a full-rebuild and how it worked for other teams in similar situations as ours, in particular, the Pistons. I know this franchise will never do that, but I still wanted to float the idea on this forum because that's kind of what we do. Share ideas, no? We discuss them for a few days and then the thread gets pushed to the bottom and disappears.

Any angst or frustration or angst you may detect in some of my words are due to being a fanatic. It's what we do from time to time. I don't attack posters but I do counter ideas if warranted. In the end, whether I am frustrated in the moment or ecstatic by an acquisition, its always orange and blue skies for me, going back to 83-84.

Well now -- I was not "attacking" any one poster but you're coming at me so let's go.

You are correct - I complain a lot about the complainers. You label yourself as "countering" ideas -- well that's how I see myself. And when those ideas are ****amamie or worse toxic, yeah I speak up. And please note I referred to media as gasbags and snakes. They know better but choose to engage in baiting the "crybabies and whiners" with their clickbait disinformation. Stirring the pot for their own benefit.

Draft night just seemed the worst to me in fan behavior. How many "Fire Leon" threads popped up like mushrooms? And why? Because he made some savvy moves to give us more assets and cap space? And several posters used blatant falsehoods (we gave up Duren to lose Kemba's 9 million!) to justify their temper tantrums. Meanwhile clowns like Stephen A spurred them on -- just as thy did with the great for us Porzingis trade and the bullets dodged on KD and Kyrie. Oh how the Knicks "failed."

And one more thing -- everyone biotches about Dolan ruining the Knicks -- to my mind it's these gasbags and crybabies who create a tear it down, instant gratification, starphuch as some here term it atmosphere. I'm so tired of that nonsense and we finally have an FO that isn't caving in to that crap. I don't want to see Dolan "fire Leon" and send us back another 5 years again, so yeah, I'm saying something even if it changes nothing.

BTW I sat in the blues in '83/'84 and watched a Bernard King the size of an ant do the miraculous....

I did notice you mention the media, etc,. However, you also mentioned Westbrook, which was an idea me and Martin were tossing back and forth just a few posts above yours. It felt personal, but maybe I misread it.

Speaking for myself, I do not get my cues from the Stephen A Smiths of the world, as they are the ones that promote starphucking, and chasing the next big-name free agent which is the instant gratification route. That is not what I am suggesting in this thread. I created this thread to mainly talk about the idea of an actual rebuild and pointed out three teams in particular, that are entrenched in it. The title that I created doesn’t match the content. If I could revise the title, I would have called something along the lines of “rebuild, an alternate idea”. For the record, a full-blown rebuild is far from instant gratification, but is a slow, and long (and can endure lots of losing) process. One that I thought we were going to finally embrace in 2018-2019, but we quickly abandoned that idea mid-way through the 2019-2020.

There are many posters here that offer a variety of different ideas. I don’t speak for everyone, but I don’t see critiques of this franchise, as long as they are honest and factual, as toxic. Most of the differing ideas promote good discussion which is why I enjoy posting here.

No, I don’t want to see Dolan fire Leon and his regime, because if he did, the next regime that would come in would be number 9 in the last 20 years. One of the many reasons why we’ve lost so much over the years is the lack of continuity in the front office. I hope they get it right, and are able to build a foundation that can support long-term winning. Last summer wasn't a very good one, hopefully they can get it back on track this summer. We will see. And just like you are going to say something, so am I. If they get right, I will give them props, if they fail, I will call them out.

Cool that you got a chance to sit in the blue seats watch Bernard play live. In 84, I was living in my grandparents Bronx apartment, sitting on a red couch with the plastic covering. The one that if wore shorts and sat down or fell asleep, you had to peel yourself off. I watched the Knicks from that couch, Little TV on top of the Floor model TV. One for the sound, the other for the picture. Bernard looked like an ant on my little tv too.

I appreciate you seeking to have a dialogue and I hope neither of us bears any malice. Perhaps we are all passionate but frustrated hard core Knick fans. I feel very strongly about what I stated - I found the rantings on draft night particularly off putting and discouraging. That was the focus of.my rant- I wasn’t thinking of you or even noticing you started this thread!

That Knick team with Bernard coached by Hubie Brown was a good hard nosed team that eventually tested the Larry Bird Celtics in the playoffs. That year followed some very discouraging ones from Michael Ray’s “the ship be sinking” to cheering for the likes of Eddie Lee Wilkins and Ken “the Animal” Bannister. Perhaps we are again now on the eve of a rebirth 🙂

No malice from me....its all good ✌🏾

gradyandrew wrote:TBH I was all in on signing DeRozan and Lowry last summer which looked smart as **** until the playoffs started. Sometimes it's better to leave those decisions to the professionals.

Agreed. Me too. I believe in getting talent where you can if the only cost is money.