Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

I am in agreement here.

If the Knicks 2 past seasons occurred in reverse... all of us would be ECSTATIC I think.

Knicks literally overshot themselves in the first year and set up some poor expectations and then compounded that with Kemba/Fournier signings.

Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing.

I'm not sure this is a point. You are predicting that these teams will be successful in the future when there's no guarantee of that. Sacramento had the number 2 pick and the Wizards had the no. 1 with Wall in recent years but top picks don't always translate to success.

I don't remember last time Miami or Milwaukee had a top pick- maybe Jabari Parker. GSW sat all their recent lottery picks and end of the 1st Poole and undrafted GPII were major contributors. Heck, who was the last top pick to be the best in their draft class? Of the top players in the league, Curry, Kawhi, LeBron and Giannis only LeBron wasn't a mid lottery pick, ie around the spot the Knicks have been taking. Add Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan to that list and you can go back almost 20 years.

Basketball is non linear. Picks don't equal rings.

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:Yes- I think Rose is officially on the clock - trading out of 11 when we need help brings risk. I get we've rolled the dice forward on some first rounders, so that is ok.

If we don't add Brunson or Mitchell, then Rose is on his last leg as far as I am concerned.

To me, the big question this year is: 'Is RJ a top 3 talent from his draft class, a player capable of keeping a franchise good and above average?' Or is he just a good, stat filler player? Can he will his team to win games? Can he be a leader? Can he make players next to him better?

To me, adding Brunson is about this, and about answering if Randle can be decent.

This year does seem to have car crash written all over it.

We can not max out RJ- we will be locked into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

The front office purposely or inadvertently moved away from Randle-ball the moment they added Fournier and especially Kemba, 2 players that need the ball to be effective. Randle never got the memo and thought he could pick up where left off last season and continued to play iso ball. I said it during the season, way before his blow ups with the fans, his teammates and refs that his style of play was a clunky fit with the rest of the roster.

Towards the end of the year when RJs usage increased, Randle couldn't or refused to accept a role of playing off the ball, consistently, and that cane to a head when we beat the Bulls and Randle tossed the ball across the court and stormed into the locker room. So, the question is. can and will Randle accept a role as the secondary ball handler and or third option being that RJ has emerged as the leader of the team? How effective will he be off the ball? It seems as though this front office had no intentions of moving Randle this off season and I think that is a mistake.

The way this front office is trying get off the contracts they signed last summer, and clearing the decks to bring in Brunson on a hefty contract, it will be a disaster if this team still fails capture, at the very least. a play in spot.

He stormed off the court cuz he reinjured himself and did not return for the season. He played hurt and very well could have been told if you tweek it your done for the season. Thus the frustration in a win.
HE said he was done. Did he mean “for the year”. Cuz thats exactly what happend.
Not to say he gets all free passes this past year, but one can also look for all reasons and tilt to make Randle more of a prick then he is.
Knicks were still not eliminated at that game.
Randle until otherwise is a knick and needs to get his head right. It was said early in season he was pissed at Fronier who was not makng his cuts making Rnadle hold the ball longer and he was frustrated about it.
That got corrected and EF played better and better defense as well.
Not enough to make playoffs.
Did Jules really react to RJs ascension? WE read this anywhere or this your opinion?

Nalod wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:Yes- I think Rose is officially on the clock - trading out of 11 when we need help brings risk. I get we've rolled the dice forward on some first rounders, so that is ok.

If we don't add Brunson or Mitchell, then Rose is on his last leg as far as I am concerned.

To me, the big question this year is: 'Is RJ a top 3 talent from his draft class, a player capable of keeping a franchise good and above average?' Or is he just a good, stat filler player? Can he will his team to win games? Can he be a leader? Can he make players next to him better?

To me, adding Brunson is about this, and about answering if Randle can be decent.

This year does seem to have car crash written all over it.

We can not max out RJ- we will be locked into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

The front office purposely or inadvertently moved away from Randle-ball the moment they added Fournier and especially Kemba, 2 players that need the ball to be effective. Randle never got the memo and thought he could pick up where left off last season and continued to play iso ball. I said it during the season, way before his blow ups with the fans, his teammates and refs that his style of play was a clunky fit with the rest of the roster.

Towards the end of the year when RJs usage increased, Randle couldn't or refused to accept a role of playing off the ball, consistently, and that cane to a head when we beat the Bulls and Randle tossed the ball across the court and stormed into the locker room. So, the question is. can and will Randle accept a role as the secondary ball handler and or third option being that RJ has emerged as the leader of the team? How effective will he be off the ball? It seems as though this front office had no intentions of moving Randle this off season and I think that is a mistake.

The way this front office is trying get off the contracts they signed last summer, and clearing the decks to bring in Brunson on a hefty contract, it will be a disaster if this team still fails capture, at the very least. a play in spot.

He stormed off the court cuz he reinjured himself and did not return for the season. He played hurt and very well could have been told if you tweek it your done for the season. Thus the frustration in a win.
HE said he was done. Did he mean “for the year”. Cuz thats exactly what happend.
Not to say he gets all free passes this past year, but one can also look for all reasons and tilt to make Randle more of a prick then he is.
Knicks were still not eliminated at that game.
Randle until otherwise is a knick and needs to get his head right. It was said early in season he was pissed at Fronier who was not makng his cuts making Rnadle hold the ball longer and he was frustrated about it.
That got corrected and EF played better and better defense as well.
Not enough to make playoffs.
Did Jules really react to RJs ascension? WE read this anywhere or this your opinion?

You say Randle doesn't get all free passes, but you posses the majority of them and you have been tossing them all over this site trying to make excuses for him. Case and point, you doubled down on the idea that Randle never told the fans to "shut the f*** up", instead he was talking to the media. I showed and proved that you were wrong when I posted a video that showed Randle was in fact yelling at the fans and I posted a reporters tweet that clarified that Randle was indeed telling the fans to "shut the f**** up!" Now, if in your opinion, you think Randle cursing out the fans and then doubling down on it in the press conference after he had a chance to cool off, is not that big of a deal, that is irrelevant to the point.

Also, you claim that the reason randle stormed off the court after-the loss to Chicago was because he was injured. You claimed that Randle said he was "done" with the season after that game. Well, here's the problem with your "free-pass". He played 36 minutes 2 nights later against Charlotte! After that loss, we were 6 games behind Charlotte for the play in spot with 5 games remaining on the schedule, eliminated from the play-in. He was done after we were officially eliminated. not the previous game against the Bulls when he supposedly was injured.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

gradyandrew wrote:

Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing.

I'm not sure this is a point. You are predicting that these teams will be successful in the future when there's no guarantee of that. Sacramento had the number 2 pick and the Wizards had the no. 1 with Wall in recent years but top picks don't always translate to success.

I don't remember last time Miami or Milwaukee had a top pick- maybe Jabari Parker. GSW sat all their recent lottery picks and end of the 1st Poole and undrafted GPII were major contributors. Heck, who was the last top pick to be the best in their draft class? Of the top players in the league, Curry, Kawhi, LeBron and Giannis only LeBron wasn't a mid lottery pick, ie around the spot the Knicks have been taking. Add Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan to that list and you can go back almost 20 years.

Basketball is non linear. Picks don't equal rings.

Agreed that there is more than one way to build a team. A full-rebuild does not guarantee success, I get that. However, I mentioned in the post earlier in this thread that for 2 decades, and with 8 different team presidents and Gm’s, we’ve followed a similar blueprint; trade for or sign big-name free agents which we’ve been unsuccessful at. Would love to see a change in philosophy. Maybe the results will be different? Again, it’s a long and slow process, but if the plan is transparent, I think the fans will get behind it.

I can argue that the two teams you brought up (Kings and Wiz) never embraced a full rebuild. One number 1 pick or one top 3 pick does not = rebuild. The Magic have been trying to rebuild for a while and have been unsuccessful and unlucky, so like I said, its not full proof.

There is a reason why I pointed out OKC, Detroit and Houston. They have experienced front offices and ownership that appears to be in full support of a rebuild. All three teams prioritize the development of their young players, they don’t sign vets or journeymen to block their development (See Wall sitting out all season, Pistons trading Rose ,etc). OKC and Houston have been to multiple WCF’s over the last ten years and in OKC’s case, a finals appearance in 2012.

Presti has also done a great job of trading for big contracts with multiple first-round picks attached. This philosophy has allowed them to stock up on the NBA’s most valuable assets (first round picks) and has given them multiple opportunities to select prospects. Like I said, you need a little luck too.

Troy Weaver, was the vice president and assistant GM for 12 years under Presti, and has brought a similar OKC rebuilding philosophy to Detroit. Rafael Stone was a part of the Morey front office, and now rebuilding that team. Wall sat all year as to not get in the way of the development of the young players, experienced vets like Gordon came off the bench, and recently, they moved off of Wood, clearing the deck for Jabari.

Lastly, you are right, none of us have any idea how the young players on OKC, Detroit and Houston will develop. Based on what I saw last year in Cade ad Bey, Giddy and Alexander and Green, I like the odds that the foundational pieces that they all selected will be really good.

In the end, we are all just fans, sitting helplessly on the sidelines hoping our front offices are competent and make smart decisions to improve our team. I know I am pissing in the wind, talking about a Dolan-owned team in NY no less, will rebuild. But, it's all in good fun.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing.

I'm not sure this is a point. You are predicting that these teams will be successful in the future when there's no guarantee of that. Sacramento had the number 2 pick and the Wizards had the no. 1 with Wall in recent years but top picks don't always translate to success.

I don't remember last time Miami or Milwaukee had a top pick- maybe Jabari Parker. GSW sat all their recent lottery picks and end of the 1st Poole and undrafted GPII were major contributors. Heck, who was the last top pick to be the best in their draft class? Of the top players in the league, Curry, Kawhi, LeBron and Giannis only LeBron wasn't a mid lottery pick, ie around the spot the Knicks have been taking. Add Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan to that list and you can go back almost 20 years.

Basketball is non linear. Picks don't equal rings.

Agreed that there is more than one way to build a team. A full-rebuild does not guarantee success, I get that. However, I mentioned in the post earlier in this thread that for 2 decades, and with 8 different team presidents and Gm’s, we’ve followed a similar blueprint; trade for or sign big-name free agents which we’ve been unsuccessful at. Would love to see a change in philosophy. Maybe the results will be different? Again, it’s a long and slow process, but if the plan is transparent, I think the fans will get behind it.

I can argue that the two teams you brought up (Kings and Wiz) never embraced a full rebuild. One number 1 pick or one top 3 pick does not = rebuild. The Magic have been trying to rebuild for a while and have been unsuccessful and unlucky, so like I said, its not full proof.

There is a reason why I pointed out OKC, Detroit and Houston. They have experienced front offices and ownership that appears to be in full support of a rebuild. All three teams prioritize the development of their young players, they don’t sign vets or journeymen to block their development (See Wall sitting out all season, Pistons trading Rose ,etc). OKC and Houston have been to multiple WCF’s over the last ten years and in OKC’s case, a finals appearance in 2012.

Presti has also done a great job of trading for big contracts with multiple first-round picks attached. This philosophy has allowed them to stock up on the NBA’s most valuable assets (first round picks) and has given them multiple opportunities to select prospects. Like I said, you need a little luck too.

Troy Weaver, was the vice president and assistant GM for 12 years under Presti, and has brought a similar OKC rebuilding philosophy to Detroit. Rafael Stone was a part of the Morey front office, and now rebuilding that team. Wall sat all year as to not get in the way of the development of the young players, experienced vets like Gordon came off the bench, and recently, they moved off of Wood, clearing the deck for Jabari.

Lastly, you are right, none of us have any idea how the young players on OKC, Detroit and Houston will develop. Based on what I saw last year in Cade ad Bey, Giddy and Alexander and Green, I like the odds that the foundational pieces that they all selected will be really good.

In the end, we are all just fans, sitting helplessly on the sidelines hoping our front offices are competent and make smart decisions to improve our team. I know I am pissing in the wind, talking a Dolan-owned team in NY no less, will rebuild. But, it's all in good fun.

You are right that OKC, Houston have taken a vastly different approach than the Knicks. But they also have a vastly different backdrops than the Knicks have: The Knicks have like 1 playoff series win in 20 years and fans and owner are chomping at the bit. We can't wait another 5-10 years of flipping picks and tanking.

It's just different circumstance. What can you do?

For sure...and to be fair, Houston was able to trade a hall of famer, Harden, to collect 3 unprotected first-round picks. Obviously, we don't have an asset anywhere near the caliber of Harden to collect those types of assets.

I think the team that's close to our situation is Detroit. For years, their teams have been a collection of journeymen (Marcus Morris, Bullock, Caldwell-Pope, Reggie Jackson) and big-name players that were on the downside of their careers (Blake). They made the playoffs twice over the last 6 years. Weaver was hired and he hit the reset button and decided to rebuild; focusing on player development and valuing high lotto picks.

You need some luck, obviously. Right now, it looks like they picked the wrong pg in 2020, in Hayes, while Haliburton was on the board. But, they stayed the course, and lucked into the #1 pick and got Cade. More luck was waiting for them this year when Ivey slid to them at 5. So, in three straight years, they tanked and picked 7, 1 and 5. Better odds to grab a potential franchise when you are picking top 5 for consecutive years, as opposed to picking in the back end of the lotto or just outside of it, obviously. They also nailed the 19th pick in 2020 when they selected Bey.

What can we do? As in today? Obviously, we need to get off of Randle and Fournier's contracts. Your idea of moving Randle and Fournier, plus others for Westbrook is something to think about. Not sure if the Lakers would do it, though. But, I would buy-out Westbrook, immediately, and roll with the young players. Can't be mad if we win, while the young players are getting a ton of minutes and developing. But if they lose, we increase our lotto odds in a really good draft in 2023, with a potential franchise-changing talent at the top.

Knicks are gonna have a high payroll pretty soon. Brunson is good and Leon is going to sell Brunson as an example his ability to land an important player and Dolan will be impressed because the Knicks will be a lot better next year. Brunson will help but expect Randle to bounce back. RJ/Obi/IQ/Grimes should all be rotation guys tending upward. Maybe we get 50-60 games out of Rose. Maybe McBride fixes his offense and other lots of good things that can happen.

We'll resign Mitch. IDK if Fournier stays or goes, what we get Reddish or who we lose to make cap room for Brunson... but Knicks will be better. Thibs will have them overachieving in the regular season to the tune of 45-50 wins and Dolan (like in the Isiah days) will say we have arrived and extend Leon.

In the meantime Knick fans can hope IQ/Obi/Grimes/RJ/Sims or whoever blossoms into an impact player who can drag us past round 1

fishmike wrote:Rose is about to entrench himself here for an extended period of time.

Knicks are gonna have a high payroll pretty soon. Brunson is good and Leon is going to sell Brunson as an example his ability to land an important player and Dolan will be impressed because the Knicks will be a lot better next year. Brunson will help but expect Randle to bounce back. RJ/Obi/IQ/Grimes should all be rotation guys tending upward. Maybe we get 50-60 games out of Rose. Maybe McBride fixes his offense and other lots of good things that can happen.

We'll resign Mitch. IDK if Fournier stays or goes, what we get Reddish or who we lose to make cap room for Brunson... but Knicks will be better. Thibs will have them overachieving in the regular season to the tune of 45-50 wins and Dolan (like in the Isiah days) will say we have arrived and extend Leon.

In the meantime Knick fans can hope IQ/Obi/Grimes/RJ/Sims or whoever blossoms into an impact player who can drag us past round 1

This seems accurate. I think they will be looking to move Fournier all season along with those draft picks. Not saying he is on the market, but those OG rumors if true would be a smart target, if a similar player hits the market they might be worth it too. They can offer a mix of those acquired picks and the Knicks own actual picks and see if Masai agrees on value. Fournier doesn’t outright suck and a collection of draft picks next to him should be enough for a lot teams to bite.

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"
Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.
They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.
They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.
They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.
How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

Title should be "Takes more than two years to turn an organization around"

Agree about the title…The moment I hit submit, I knew I should have changed the title. I feel like my message in the initial post might get lost based on the title.

Knicks fans wanted to rebuild the right way. Use the draft with worthwhile young pieces. Rose did that.

First off, Rose wasn’t hired to build the right way, he was hired to use his CAA connections to do what Mills couldn’t do. Rose and the front office drafted some nice role-players but its what is expected when you are always drafted towards the end of the lotto.

2021
Wizards drafted 15th, grabbed Kispert. Nice role player
Kings drafted 9th, grabbed Mitchell, another nice role player

2020
The Wizards drafted 9th, grabbed Avdija. Nice role player, non- needle mover
Kings drafted 12th and lucked into Hali (after we passed on him), then stupidly traded their best young prospect for a win-now player that wont help them win now.

Notice the pattern. When you half-ass your rebuild (its not really a rebuild, but will use it here for lack of a better word) like the Kings and Wiz, you pick at the back end of the lotto and where the %’s are extremely low to grab a franchise player. We’ve wanted a face of the franchise for year but refuse to position ourselves to draft one

They wanted an experienced defense oriented coach. Knicks did that.

Hiring a win now coach for a roster that was no where near ready to win now tells you all you need to know about whether the Knicks were serious about a rebuild. On top of that, Thibs was hired for reasons beyond just defense. He was also hired to instill culture which I will get into later on.

They wanted to have promising young players that were proving to have a solid future. Knicks have that.

Pretty sure the Wiz and Kings are selling the same mantra to their fans too.

They wanted to add vet pieces to help them compete. We did that when we had a true PG.
They wanted to stop the Knicks trend of starphucking for over the hill names. (Kinda did that)

If by competing you mean chasing a play-in spot, I guess we have accomplished that. Seems like that the goal anyway. As as far as starphucking is concerned, that was the whole point of bringing in Rose, and Wes for their connections. We played better once we traded Rose, but don't ignore the circumstances of that season. We were 12-16 last year, I believe, before Rose shut it down. I like Brunson, but the idea that we are moving mountains and hiring the father our team presidents god-son, feels off to me. I remember when Larry Brown hired Ed Manning, Danny Mannings father in order to secure a commitment from the best player in the country. Our boy, Kenny Payne just hire Milt Wagner, the grandfather of the best prospect in the country for the class of 2023. Payne learned from the best.

Was pissed we did not draft MJ on Thursday but come on man. Knicks are continuing their progression. May not be as fast as some of us wanted but progressing non the less. Lets let Rose continue to do what he is doing. Team has a much better future than we have ever during the Dolan controlled years. How bout we let some of our young assets get into their third year in the NBA.

This is bigger than the draft a couple of days ago. 'm pissed that we refuse to tear this ting down and rebuild the proper way. Take a look at what Houston, OKC and Detroit are doing. They are 100% committed to their youth, and rebuilding the right way. Although, OKC’s method is a little unconventional, but I think thay are on the right path now. Honestly, I should be pissed at myself for hoping a Dolan owned team would ever entertain an actual, slow and long rebuild. You are dead-wrong when you say they are not progressing fast enough. There is no fast tracking a true rebuild.

How about we let Thibs continue to build the culture of the organization. How about we let some of the young pieces that may be on the verge of next level make that turn. How about we give our recent All Star a chance to regain his form. For me the only move that Rose has made that seemed off was the Kemba signing. Maybe he though it was worth a shot. Think he sees it is not a position to take risks with. IF we sign a true PG all this talk will be looked back and be exposed as premature over reacting.

You mean the culture that the one-time all-star did everything in his power to torpedo and our so-called disciplinarian coach did nothing but continue to regard him with minutes? Overreacting? Again, if the goal is to capture a 8-10th seed and maybe get a home playoff game or two, then I guess we are overreacting.

After reading this think your title should be "Tear this **** down"
Just hard to argue with someone that thinks everything is bad and the world has ended.

Not as pessimistic. I think we will have a bounce back year by adding a solid PG.
Think all of Rose's draft picks have shown to be solid contributors in the NBA.
Like Thibs and think the promise that Obi, IQ, Grimes and Deuce have shown disprove the theory that he only cares about vets.
The culture he has created is one of defense and one in which players want to play for. Something we did not have prior.

Absolutely THINK "competing" means fighting for a playoff spot. Maybe practical. If you felt it meant being one of the final four teams fighting for the chip, you were more unrealistic about Rose than I originally thought.

Everything is bad and the world has ended? Exaggerate much? Nothing about my posts suggests that this is “the world has ended” instead, I am just suggesting that after 2 decades and 8 different team presidents/Gms in which the plan, for the most part, was trying and failing to position ourselves to sign big-name free agents and trade for stars, that maybe we try it a different way. Not saying a full rebuild is full-proof, but clearly, that’s not the path our owner wants to travel.

Not sure how you figured I was suggesting that this front office and this team should be one of the top 4 teams in the league and fighting for a ‘chip. Did you read what I wrote? Lol. As I said earlier, I think this team will be competing for seeds 8-10 next year and probably for the foreseeable future. I could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it today.

Think you understand the reference. "Doom and Gloom" works. Point is that it's hard to argue with someone that is so negative and ignores obvious improvements.

Last year competed for a 8-10 spot. So what? Pretty realistic for a team with NO PG. Lets not mention we were just got a 4 seed the year before. Lets also not mention what Rose has given us. Draft assets. IQ, Grimes, Obi. An All Star that averages a double double for $26M a year.
You can sit there and claim that we would be so much better if we tanked and did not have Rose but its all retrospective arm chair fan jargon.

Imo, you judge a FO more on where you are headed than were you have been. I see a lot of things to look forward to compared to where we where just a few years ago. But hey, it's your choice to sit there and think everything is bad.