martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:All this Randle trade talks is ridiculous. The guy is 27 and was all NBA last year. Talk about what have you done for me lately. We need to get better, not worse.

How about this take.

Randle is a darn good player, all star, and near MVP realm last year and uncontested MIP.

The Knicks have to decide whether to build around him or move on as quickly as you can to start building without him. Some times you have Sit Tight and Assess periods of time where you don't need to make a decision right away. The Knicks have had a solid 2-3 year look at Randle. This is the same as dating a woman who keeps telling you she wants a family after you have been together a long enough time and is starting to get on the outer edges of comfortable 30's; give her a ring and start that family or move on and find a different woman, the faster you make that decision the better off each party will be.

The questions I would be asking myself: Is this the best we have seen from Randle? Can you see his potential ceiling? Is he close to that or does he have a ton of room to grow? Can he be a #1? Is he a solid enough #2 on deep playoff team?

I don't think anyone would suggest he is a likely #1 on a deep playoff team. I don't think he is a solid enough #2 but that is IMHO. I also think he is BLOCKING the development of other players on the team. RJ, Obi, etc. That is not to say that RJ or Obi are as good as Randle or even have the same potential as him, just that they may see more potential develop and developed quicker if Randle were not on the team.

Randle is 27 and was all NBA last year. He still hasn't figured out what to do with a double team. He still makes cross court passes directly to the opponent. He still has not proven himself to be a efficient shooter. He is ungodly TO prone, with dribble and passing. Every year in league, his % of rim shots do down. He is not a natural leader. He defensive efforts are day to day, that has not changed since he has been with Knicks.

I think that the Knicks have already made their decision and just waiting for the right opportunity.

Atlanta did the same thing with Cam but ****ed up and waited too long to trade him and all that was offered was like 2 second round picks from Lakers or Knox and a top 18 protected. Last offseason they could have gotten more.

Wait too long and maybe he gets hurt or reverts to his first season with Knicks? Hell nah. That's the downside risk of waiting too long.

Marry that bitch or move on and get freaky on Tinder.

This!!!

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:All this Randle trade talks is ridiculous. The guy is 27 and was all NBA last year. Talk about what have you done for me lately. We need to get better, not worse.

How about this take.

Randle is a darn good player, all star, and near MVP realm last year and uncontested MIP.

The Knicks have to decide whether to build around him or move on as quickly as you can to start building without him. Some times you have Sit Tight and Assess periods of time where you don't need to make a decision right away. The Knicks have had a solid 2-3 year look at Randle. This is the same as dating a woman who keeps telling you she wants a family after you have been together a long enough time and is starting to get on the outer edges of comfortable 30's; give her a ring and start that family or move on and find a different woman, the faster you make that decision the better off each party will be.

The questions I would be asking myself: Is this the best we have seen from Randle? Can you see his potential ceiling? Is he close to that or does he have a ton of room to grow? Can he be a #1? Is he a solid enough #2 on deep playoff team?

I don't think anyone would suggest he is a likely #1 on a deep playoff team. I don't think he is a solid enough #2 but that is IMHO. I also think he is BLOCKING the development of other players on the team. RJ, Obi, etc. That is not to say that RJ or Obi are as good as Randle or even have the same potential as him, just that they may see more potential develop and developed quicker if Randle were not on the team.

Randle is 27 and was all NBA last year. He still hasn't figured out what to do with a double team. He still makes cross court passes directly to the opponent. He still has not proven himself to be a efficient shooter. He is ungodly TO prone, with dribble and passing. Every year in league, his % of rim shots do down. He is not a natural leader. He defensive efforts are day to day, that has not changed since he has been with Knicks.

I think that the Knicks have already made their decision and just waiting for the right opportunity.

Atlanta did the same thing with Cam but ****ed up and waited too long to trade him and all that was offered was like 2 second round picks from Lakers or Knox and a top 18 protected. Last offseason they could have gotten more.

Wait too long and maybe he gets hurt or reverts to his first season with Knicks? Hell nah. That's the downside risk of waiting too long.

Marry that bitch or move on and get freaky on Tinder.

That’s fine but Randle is blocking no ones development except Obi. We have seen what this team looks like without Randle. Barrett and the other pieces benefit from the fact that double teams are still thrown at Randle constantly. You really think Barrett benefits from being the man if he doesn’t have any other shot creators alongside him ? He would be forced into being a low efficiency chucker. Randles pace doesn’t help, but the attention he receives does. Barrett, IQ, Fournier, Grimes etc get cleaner looks because Randle is sucking in all the attention. The issue is, and will continue to be, the PG position. That is hurting development of this team more than anything. I don’t believe The front office is as knee-jerking as most fans, so I don’t believe they have given up on Randle.

Obi, Kemba, Burks and Dallas 1st for Brunson, Bullock, and Powell
Or Kemba, Burks and Fournier for Wall.

Get a PG who can manage the game a bit better and see where things go from there. So far all we can say conclusively from this season is that Kemba is a declining player who has been an absolute terrible fit with the rest of the starters in every aspect. Common sense says the front office wants to make changes there first.

Fair enough on your take with Randle, we just have divergent paths.

And I think the PG problem is a separate issue/question and agree with you.

martin wrote:Knixkik, I would present to you the below again and magically add in Brunson to the mix on the Knicks team for hypothetical reasons (we drop Kemba and Burks out of picture). Let's just take out the PG problems the Knicks have. Let's say the PG makes Randle's job easier.

Now, how would you address the below. What's your take on if Randle has a ceiling and how you see him as a #1 or #2 on a playoff team and how Randle overcomes his deficiencies to be a high level playoff performer and player you either build around or build with him as a key player.

The questions I would be asking myself: Is this the best we have seen from Randle? Can you see his potential ceiling? Is he close to that or does he have a ton of room to grow? Can he be a #1? Is he a solid enough #2 on deep playoff team?

I don't think anyone would suggest he is a likely #1 on a deep playoff team. I don't think he is a solid enough #2 but that is IMHO.

Randle is 27 and was all NBA last year. He still hasn't figured out what to do with a double team. He still makes cross court passes directly to the opponent. He still has not proven himself to be a efficient shooter. He is ungodly TO prone, with dribble and passing. Every year in league, his % of rim shots do down. He is not a natural leader. He defensive efforts are day to day, that has not changed since he has been with Knicks.

I don’t see Randle as a #1 or 2. I think he may be a good #3 whereas Barrett can shift ahead of him and somewhere along the way we find a true #1.

jskinny35 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:Knixkik, I would present to you the below again and magically add in Brunson to the mix on the Knicks team for hypothetical reasons (we drop Kemba and Burks out of picture). Let's just take out the PG problems the Knicks have. Let's say the PG makes Randle's job easier.

Now, how would you address the below. What's your take on if Randle has a ceiling and how you see him as a #1 or #2 on a playoff team and how Randle overcomes his deficiencies to be a high level playoff performer and player you either build around or build with him as a key player.

The questions I would be asking myself: Is this the best we have seen from Randle? Can you see his potential ceiling? Is he close to that or does he have a ton of room to grow? Can he be a #1? Is he a solid enough #2 on deep playoff team?

I don't think anyone would suggest he is a likely #1 on a deep playoff team. I don't think he is a solid enough #2 but that is IMHO.

Randle is 27 and was all NBA last year. He still hasn't figured out what to do with a double team. He still makes cross court passes directly to the opponent. He still has not proven himself to be a efficient shooter. He is ungodly TO prone, with dribble and passing. Every year in league, his % of rim shots do down. He is not a natural leader. He defensive efforts are day to day, that has not changed since he has been with Knicks.

I don’t see Randle as a #1 or 2. I think he may be a good #3 whereas Barrett can shift ahead of him and somewhere along the way we find a true #1.

3 questions
Do you really believe Randle would accept going from the #1 option to the #3 (or even #2 option) anytime in the next few seasons?

How do you acquire a #1 option without gutting your entire bench and/or draft picks?

Isn't it easier to use Randle and picks to upgrade?

Trading Randle won’t allow you to upgrade. You would be trading for pennies on the dollar. Obi has more value around the league than Randle when you factor in youth and contract. You upgrade using some youth and draft picks. Do you really think it’s as easy as trading Randle and picks for upgrades ? Other teams aren’t idiots. Teams who want randle aren’t giving away players who will make us better. I think Randle will be fine morphing into a #2 or 3 guy as long as we are winning. If we are winning and he’s got less pressure from the fan base than why not ? This all or nothing mentality has to end. Just because Randle isn’t the #1 guy on a contender doesn’t mean we have to send him packing. He’s ill-equipped for this role he’s in. So what? Get upgrades ahead of him to lighten his load and put less pressure on him to be a #1 guy, which we know he’s not. And in the meantime, try to find better fitting pieces. Think of it in terms of the Knicks adding Sprewell or LJ. They had been #1 guys on their teams, and they didn’t have to be anymore.

This summer Brunson (CAA-Rose client, NYer) tells dallas his intentions to sign here. We trade Kemba, Burks, and the Dallas 1st for Brunson on a new contract at 4/80

Then Towns (CAA-Rose client, NYer, Kentucky) requests a trade specifically here prior to the draft. Knicks trade Fournier, Toppin, IQ, 2022 draft in the 10-15 range, and 3 future first round picks.

Lineup: Towns, Randle, Barrett, Grimes, Brunson
Bench: Noel, Reddish, Rose, McBride, Gibson, Sims etc.

Randle becomes essentially the 3rd option. Towns and Randle flip back and forth between the paint and perimeter. Randle enjoys single coverage and life becoming less stressful lol.

jskinny35 wrote:You send Randle packing for picks, young prospects, a comparable player or packaged together for an upgrade. Yes, I believe if we packaged Randle with Mitch and a #1 (or 2 pending player) pick we could land guys like D.Ayton (Suns didn't resign), Kuminga/Wiseman, D.Fox, McCollum, D.Murray, etc

You don't keep Randle, loose the bench and trade for D.Fox because Randle can't keep up with D.Fox's pace. And Fox doesn't shoot well enough to support Randle's play. Time to get the ball out of a good to very good PF who masquerades as a PG because we don't have quality ones starting. Use him to land a PG or a player with exceptional court vision, leadership, etc

It's either him or RJ - nobody else has much value unless you group like 3-4 young players instead with future picks. I'd much rather take my lumps and keep RJ, Grimes, etc since they show more promise at such a young age. Randle is 27 and still has some value in the right deal.

You do it because he will continue to hinder the development of our young players
You do it because we are dead last in NBA pace and he's the offensive engine (like a Ford pinto)
You do it because this is not 90s where everyone stands around and watches ISO-ball - the good teams play fast because it's harder to defend
You do it because we have 6-7 promising young players that play differently and it's easier to move one vs the rest and pray Randle changes his ways
You do it because after watching him for 3 seasons (including last season when he overachieved) - improbable he will suddenly become the #1 option

Agree you don't sell for pennies on the dollar but there are a lot of options for Randle - time to explore them. You keep trying to find pieces to fit around him is like the 2001 Sixers trying to build around Iverson - everyone around him had to fit perfectly to mask his deficiencies. Problem is Iverson was a top tier talent (at least offensively) and Randle is a 2nd or 3rd tier talent. You just don't bother keep trying for a formula that has a limited ceiling and won't work. You construct around guys like Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Curry, KD, etc - not Randle.

The Knicks added Spree to Ewing, Houston and Oakley - very different situation. Randle was never a #1 guy except here last season because we were so devoid of talent and sucked for years. Nobody else even tried to sign him when he signed with us. Lakers and Pelicans probably helped him pack. And he did overachieve and maximize his abilities last season (no question)- but that doesn't change what he is and how we will be stuck if we don't use out best asset to move on. He's clearly not our only problem but he represents the best way to eliminate or minimize several of them at once.

I agree that it never hurts to explore options. Every option should always be on the table. Fitting players around Randle was easy last year. Payton and Bullock fit Randle and fit the thibs system. Moving on from them is fine. The issue clearly is they upgraded talent at the expense of fit and the fit reflects on Randle as much as anyone. Basically have to look at replicating the good that Bullock and Payton brought but with better players. I do believe there’s hope that Grimes can be a better version of Bullock. He plays hard all the time, hits rhythm threes, and his improvement over Bullock can be his ability to run and move without the ball. Obviously finding a PG who can get to the paint and defend like Payton, but with a more respectable jumper is what is needed. Randle, for all his iso stuff, got more easy shot last year. Payton gets into the paint and the defense shifts and Randle can find a spot and react sooner. This year there’s no easy shots for him. Both his fault and his supporting cast. He needs a PG that attacks the defense and forces him to move to open gaps.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:Marry that bitch or move on and get freaky on Tinder.

😱 A new Martin has been forged after the Rebecca/Wally news.

I keep waffling between She doesn't yet have a ring on her finger so you say there is still a chance and How you doin?

Jimbo5 wrote:I'm hoping the Spurs consider trading Murray, i think he will look good as a knick. Maybe send Kemba, IQ and a 1st round pick with protection?

Then maybe the knicks can call the Hawks again and swap Julius with Collins but after the 1st trade it might cost the knicks a lot more the second time around. Could Julius and Obi plus a 1st round pick do it? Just elevate Semanic as the back up PF.

Can the knicks flip Evan for a stretch 5, maybe Olynyk or Kiminski?

Can this starting 5 save the season:

Mitch
Collins
RJ
Grimes
Murray

Bench

Noel/Taj
Semenic
Cam
IQ
DRose

I so want the FO to make some landscape changing moves for the knicks by the trade deadline. At this point its only wishful thinking.

Murray would be perfect but it would take a lot to get him. Multiple first round picks and Obi/IQ.

ToddTT wrote:Any move to get Kemba and EF as far away from NY as possible. Addition by subtraction.

Yeah cuz Burks and IQ are killing it at pg