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Magic and Knicks, 730pm 11/17
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knicks1248
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11/16/2021  3:51 PM
So we blow this team out and one game, they come back and smack us around, but I just read this, and I hope Thibs does too

Of the 30 most used lineups thus far, only the lowly Rockets and Thunder play groups who have performed worse than the Knicks' starting quintet of Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier, RJ Barrett, Julius Randle, and Mitchell Robinson (minus-16.2 points per 100 possessions). On the other end of the spectrum, Orlando's starting five of Cole Anthony, Jalen Suggs, Franz Wagner, Wendell Carter, and Mo Bamba - with an average age of just 21.2 - boasts a net rating (plus-15.4) only bested by two of the 30 most played groups. (Thankfully for the Knicks, the best-performing quintet thus far is New York's all-bench lineup).
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fishmike
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11/16/2021  4:40 PM
knicks1248 wrote:So we blow this team out and one game, they come back and smack us around, but I just read this, and I hope Thibs does too

Of the 30 most used lineups thus far, only the lowly Rockets and Thunder play groups who have performed worse than the Knicks' starting quintet of Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier, RJ Barrett, Julius Randle, and Mitchell Robinson (minus-16.2 points per 100 possessions). On the other end of the spectrum, Orlando's starting five of Cole Anthony, Jalen Suggs, Franz Wagner, Wendell Carter, and Mo Bamba - with an average age of just 21.2 - boasts a net rating (plus-15.4) only bested by two of the 30 most played groups. (Thankfully for the Knicks, the best-performing quintet thus far is New York's all-bench lineup).
good thing for us he doesnt need to read this and knows more about his team, players and league than any copy paste you can regurg

Like Thibs doesnt know his starters are struggling and why. Of course he does. The difference is his approach needs to manage human players long term. Your approach is fantasy sports based and has no reality. Like Briggs and benching IQ for Grimes or whatever other knee jerk you can come up with because this guy or that guy are underperforming.

Knicks were 25-27 last year and Thibs won COY. I mean if the guy hasnt earned like 10 minutes of patience with his rotations and player development I'm not sure what else he needs to do

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheGame
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11/16/2021  5:44 PM
The starters need to play better. Thibbs will give them 10-15 more games. If they are still struggling, someone is getting moved to the bench and it will likely be either Walker or Fournier
Trust the Process
Knixkik
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11/16/2021  7:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/16/2021  7:30 PM
TheGame wrote:The starters need to play better. Thibbs will give them 10-15 more games. If they are still struggling, someone is getting moved to the bench and it will likely be either Walker or Fournier

The one move I could see is Burks replacing Fournier to bring a little more balance to the starting lineup. But I don’t see any changes as likely. Just more minutes to the bench and mixing and matching similar to what we saw in the 4th quarter last night. The changes will come via trade as the expectations are set this year and if the team doesn’t look capable of taking a step forward than we know Rose has the assets to make a splash.

blkexec
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11/16/2021  7:34 PM
TheGame wrote:The starters need to play better. Thibbs will give them 10-15 more games. If they are still struggling, someone is getting moved to the bench and it will likely be either Walker or Fournier

I thought Kemba would be the ideal move to the bench, per my own knee jerk reaction. But seems like he's responding better than Fournier at the moment and Fournier seems to play better in a pass the ball around system than the iso players we have in the 1st unit. Since we are playing this game of coach, who replaces Fournier? If it's Kemba, I think IQ gets the call. But would Thibs play IQ and Kemba together? What about Burks?

Thibs is a players coach and with his COY honors last year, he deserves more patience than most knick fans are willing to give him.

Just imagine, in a perfect world. Half way through the season, the same unit we are trashing, steps up and plays just as well as the second unit or better. The sky is the limit with this team. Or he makes a move, and the 1st unit is still trash, while the 2nd unit got worst. Then we are in a worse situation than before. All I know, it's not easy to have the type of chemistry Rose, IQ, Toppin developed last year and in the off season. I would hate to mess that up. The starters (filled with high paid vets) need to play better, which they have the last game.

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Knixkik
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11/16/2021  7:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/16/2021  7:39 PM
blkexec wrote:
TheGame wrote:The starters need to play better. Thibbs will give them 10-15 more games. If they are still struggling, someone is getting moved to the bench and it will likely be either Walker or Fournier

I thought Kemba would be the ideal move to the bench, per my own knee jerk reaction. But seems like he's responding better than Fournier at the moment and Fournier seems to play better in a pass the ball around system than the iso players we have in the 1st unit. Since we are playing this game of coach, who replaces Fournier? If it's Kemba, I think IQ gets the call. But would Thibs play IQ and Kemba together? What about Burks?

Thibs is a players coach and with his COY honors last year, he deserves more patience than most knick fans are willing to give him.

Just imagine, in a perfect world. Half way through the season, the same unit we are trashing, steps up and plays just as well as the second unit or better. The sky is the limit with this team. Or he makes a move, and the 1st unit is still trash, while the 2nd unit got worst. Then we are in a worse situation than before. All I know, it's not easy to have the type of chemistry Rose, IQ, Toppin developed last year and in the off season. I would hate to mess that up. The starters (filled with high paid vets) need to play better, which they have the last game.

You’re right. You can’t mess up the bench just for the sake of shaking up the starting lineup. I think ultimately they either improve or a trade is made to shake it up. That December 15 trade date will be a big milestone to see where they are at.

jskinny35
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11/16/2021  8:09 PM

Starting
PG - Kemba (probably needs to be on a less reliant team where he can shine in spot minutes)
SG - Fournier (not his fault but needs to be surrounded with tougher/defensive players to hide his limitations)
SF - RJ (struggling but he's our future at the moment - maybe he was better at the SG with Bullock helping more defensively)
PF - Randle (needs to play faster and make quicker decisions - not sure his default won't always be ISO/hold the ball)
C - Mitch (will be fine as seems to still be out of shape/recovering from his injuries)

Bench
PG - Rose (perfect role for his age, passing and leadership)
SG - IQ (perfect role as he's streaky)
SF - Burks (perfect instant offense - our microwave)
PF - Toppin (plays very well with Rose and IQ)
C - Noel (perfect backup center)

We actually have a perfect bench and a so so starting five that may improve as season goes on. We can't fix the starting lineup by taking our bench players and making them the starters (just moving a problem for a problem). I really think we need a better PG as it did help Randle (and the team) when Kemba handles the ball more. Kemba just looks like he can only play 1 game per week these days. Hard not to look back at Ball who is doing great things with Chicago.

I would give time to gel through February as I do think it's a bit early to do anything drastic. That said - if we are still bottom half defensively in mid-February - I think it's worth considering going for Damian Lillard or a significant PG upgrade. At some point the build around Randle experiment will have to show something or time to shift the focal point. Toppin may never replicate Randle's production but in the end it's how the team performs in terms of win/losses.

Let's hope these five improve their chemistry and defense. Don't care if our record hovers around .500% - key is we need to get much better defensively.

Philc1
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11/16/2021  8:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/16/2021  8:10 PM
I still like Kemba’s pull up jumpers. The guy can shoot. Ditto for Fournier

The solution is to not have them on the floor at the same time since both are not good defenders. That means either start Burks at SF or Quickley at PG

KnickDanger
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11/16/2021  8:24 PM
We couldn't decide on who the new object of hate would be...so it seems we've settled on a compromise -- "the starters."
Philc1
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11/16/2021  8:27 PM
KnickDanger wrote:We couldn't decide on who the new object of hate would be...so it seems we've settled on a compromise -- "the starters."

Not only is Kemba the reason we aren’t 14-0 did you know Elfrid Payton was the league’s best perimeter defender?

franco12
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11/17/2021  7:08 AM
Rose appointed Kemba the starter, and maybe he will play like one.

But I don't see everyone's desire to protect the bench unit when the starters are regularly playing like complete trash, and they might improve if they were moved to the bench.

Maybe the easy move is Mitch to the bench. Maybe seeing a 36 year old bust his butt in front of them might inspire them. Maybe he would help on defense, maybe he is vocal and could be the QB on that end.

I would start there. Mitch is banged up. Obi can get more minutes to fill in.

If I am coach, that is my first move, one made with the hope that the rest of my starters might actually be able to play better and don't need to be traded for a bag of peanuts.

IQ might be the other best candidate to move into the starting line up. He finally has started to find his form. His energy is infectious and might get the others to play better.

We have very little margin, barely beating the Pacers. We have absolutely played better, but whether that better was a blip or a mark of where this team can be is the question to be answered.

jrodmc
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11/17/2021  8:46 AM
Philc1 wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:We couldn't decide on who the new object of hate would be...so it seems we've settled on a compromise -- "the starters."

Not only is Kemba the reason we aren’t 14-0 did you know Elfrid Payton was the league’s best perimeter defender?

And don't forget how stupid Thibs is for not giving Frankie more than 15 seconds at the end of every game last season. He's tied for the league lead in FT%!

Philc1
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11/17/2021  8:48 AM
franco12 wrote:Rose appointed Kemba the starter, and maybe he will play like one.

But I don't see everyone's desire to protect the bench unit when the starters are regularly playing like complete trash, and they might improve if they were moved to the bench.

Maybe the easy move is Mitch to the bench. Maybe seeing a 36 year old bust his butt in front of them might inspire them. Maybe he would help on defense, maybe he is vocal and could be the QB on that end.

I would start there. Mitch is banged up. Obi can get more minutes to fill in.

If I am coach, that is my first move, one made with the hope that the rest of my starters might actually be able to play better and don't need to be traded for a bag of peanuts.

IQ might be the other best candidate to move into the starting line up. He finally has started to find his form. His energy is infectious and might get the others to play better.

We have very little margin, barely beating the Pacers. We have absolutely played better, but whether that better was a blip or a mark of where this team can be is the question to be answered.

The starters aren’t trash and I could care less about analytics nonsense. Here’s a stat we are 8-6 - if the starters were that bad we wouldn’t be 8-6


The issue is Kemba and EF cannot be on the floor at the same time. Neither guy is a defender, both are shooters. Either start IQ at PG or Burks at SF

Knixkik
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11/17/2021  11:04 AM
Philc1 wrote:
franco12 wrote:Rose appointed Kemba the starter, and maybe he will play like one.

But I don't see everyone's desire to protect the bench unit when the starters are regularly playing like complete trash, and they might improve if they were moved to the bench.

Maybe the easy move is Mitch to the bench. Maybe seeing a 36 year old bust his butt in front of them might inspire them. Maybe he would help on defense, maybe he is vocal and could be the QB on that end.

I would start there. Mitch is banged up. Obi can get more minutes to fill in.

If I am coach, that is my first move, one made with the hope that the rest of my starters might actually be able to play better and don't need to be traded for a bag of peanuts.

IQ might be the other best candidate to move into the starting line up. He finally has started to find his form. His energy is infectious and might get the others to play better.

We have very little margin, barely beating the Pacers. We have absolutely played better, but whether that better was a blip or a mark of where this team can be is the question to be answered.

The starters aren’t trash and I could care less about analytics nonsense. Here’s a stat we are 8-6 - if the starters were that bad we wouldn’t be 8-6


The issue is Kemba and EF cannot be on the floor at the same time. Neither guy is a defender, both are shooters. Either start IQ at PG or Burks at SF

I think Walker is fine as a starter. Fournier feels like more of a long term scoring reserve player and I’d love to replace him with an elite 2-way wing.

blkexec
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11/17/2021  11:27 AM
For the offense to improve with the starting lineup, Fournier needs to work on his catch and shoot game. I remember in the beginning he was saying he’s more than just catch and shoot. Seems like he’s trying to prove that. But this starting 5 has 3 ball dominate players. So EF need to work on his quick release catch and shoot game, similar to bullock. Otherwise he will continue to struggle. There’s simply not enough balls to go around in that starting unit. His timing looks completely off as a shooter, floaters and defense.
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blkexec
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11/17/2021  11:31 AM
Also, to be affective next to Kemba, RJ and Randle….you need a player that can shoot and doesn’t need to dribble to get his rhythm or shot off. Plus someone willing to do the little things. We need a glue guy to play with those guys. Burks might be a better fit. He can create his own shot and doesn’t need a bunch of set plays. Fournier would be perfect next to iQ and Rose….2 unselfish playmakers.
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blkexec
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11/17/2021  11:33 AM
blkexec wrote:Also, to be affective next to Kemba, RJ and Randle….you need a player that can shoot and doesn’t need to dribble to get his rhythm or shot off. Plus someone willing to do the little things. We need a glue guy to play with those guys. Burks might be a better fit. He can create his own shot and doesn’t need a bunch of set plays. Fournier would be perfect next to iQ and Rose….2 unselfish playmakers.

Burks can also guard the other teams dynamic guard or SF better than Fournier. I wouldn’t be surprised if thibs os leaning towards that. Burks is a 2 way player, who can impact the game on both ends and spread the floor while if needed, create his on shot.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
jskinny35
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11/17/2021  11:52 AM
blkexec wrote:Also, to be affective next to Kemba, RJ and Randle….you need a player that can shoot and doesn’t need to dribble to get his rhythm or shot off. Plus someone willing to do the little things. We need a glue guy to play with those guys. Burks might be a better fit. He can create his own shot and doesn’t need a bunch of set plays. Fournier would be perfect next to iQ and Rose….2 unselfish playmakers.

Doesn't that sadly sound like Bullock? Crazy thing is at the time I thought we only could sign either Bullock or Fournier - later on realized we could have signed Fournier first and then resigned Bullock as well. Not sure why they didn't like Bullock - he seemed like a perfect vet for the team/Thibs.

I agree Burks might be the best lineup shift

Knixkik
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11/17/2021  1:03 PM
jskinny35 wrote:
blkexec wrote:Also, to be affective next to Kemba, RJ and Randle….you need a player that can shoot and doesn’t need to dribble to get his rhythm or shot off. Plus someone willing to do the little things. We need a glue guy to play with those guys. Burks might be a better fit. He can create his own shot and doesn’t need a bunch of set plays. Fournier would be perfect next to iQ and Rose….2 unselfish playmakers.

Doesn't that sadly sound like Bullock? Crazy thing is at the time I thought we only could sign either Bullock or Fournier - later on realized we could have signed Fournier first and then resigned Bullock as well. Not sure why they didn't like Bullock - he seemed like a perfect vet for the team/Thibs.

I agree Burks might be the best lineup shift

I agree about Burks if a change needs to be made internally.

Nalod
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11/17/2021  1:58 PM
Its a strength to have a great bench!
Team knows all that analytic mumbo jumbo funny stuff.
Does one weaken the bench in the mere hope change will help, or the very guys that put that 2nd unit together keep trying to get the first unit tweeked or fans think they know that if could be better, they have the answers?

Burkes a better and more durable player than Evan? We we just reacting to the cohesive issues with a narrow focus?

Magic and Knicks, 730pm 11/17

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