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Tom T needs to step up 2
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franco12
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11/15/2021  6:53 AM
I’m encouraged and hopeful that maybe Tom can get things back on track - I’ve said before, sometimes guys need more structure on offense:

https://nypost.com/2021/11/14/tom-thibodeau-makes-adjustments-to-fix-knicks-offense/

Tom Thibodeau installed a little more play structure and less freelancing on Sunday. That freelancing mode may have resulted in an offense Fournier referred to as “stagnant.”
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LinToFields
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11/15/2021  7:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/15/2021  7:19 AM
When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.
knicks1248
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11/15/2021  8:16 AM
SergioNYK wrote:Last night was not the night to experiment with Obi and Randle. Philly had Drummond and 4 guards, all who can shoot the three. Bad match up. We gotta straighten out our team defense first and foremost. Obi will get his time. Right now it's difficult cause he's playing behind an All-Star and we need to play Randle as much as possible. Especially in games where he's not getting much help offensively.

The flip side to that is Drummond would have to worry about guarding OBI or Randle..

Half of NBA teams don't even have a traditional Centers

ES
franco12
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11/15/2021  8:21 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
SergioNYK wrote:Last night was not the night to experiment with Obi and Randle. Philly had Drummond and 4 guards, all who can shoot the three. Bad match up. We gotta straighten out our team defense first and foremost. Obi will get his time. Right now it's difficult cause he's playing behind an All-Star and we need to play Randle as much as possible. Especially in games where he's not getting much help offensively.

The flip side to that is Drummond would have to worry about guarding OBI or Randle..

Half of NBA teams don't even have a traditional Centers

the problem is we either don't or won't put out 4 guards/wing type players.

I will say, I think we've played the best ball when we have gone small.

franco12
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11/15/2021  8:25 AM
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

I don't know that anyone said Grimes would be that replacement first year?

I will admit, Grimes, in limited time, has looked deserving of more time.

I said this in the other thread that Briggs started - are we starting Kemba & Fournier because we gave out big contracts or if they give us the best chance of winning games?


Clearly Thibs et al must be seeing something in practice that leads them to think they give us the best chance to win.

On your defensive effort, theoretically that used to be Mitch - his first year, he had tremendous energy on the defensive side. I keep saying it - I think he is physically way off for whatever reason - probably shouldn't be playing.

Vmart
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11/15/2021  8:56 AM
franco12 wrote:
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

I don't know that anyone said Grimes would be that replacement first year?

I will admit, Grimes, in limited time, has looked deserving of more time.

I said this in the other thread that Briggs started - are we starting Kemba & Fournier because we gave out big contracts or if they give us the best chance of winning games?


Clearly Thibs et al must be seeing something in practice that leads them to think they give us the best chance to win.

On your defensive effort, theoretically that used to be Mitch - his first year, he had tremendous energy on the defensive side. I keep saying it - I think he is physically way off for whatever reason - probably shouldn't be playing.

Think Andre Drummond. Drummond got to big and ever since he has been not so great. He weakened his strengths by gaining weight. Mitch did the same hisnplaying weight probably should be 240-250 max. Mitch looks like he is well over 265-275. That weight gain is significant enough to slow him down just enough to become a okay defensive player and slow enough in the offense side to become ineffective.

martin
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11/15/2021  9:01 AM
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

I don't know that anyone said Grimes would be that replacement first year?

I will admit, Grimes, in limited time, has looked deserving of more time.

I said this in the other thread that Briggs started - are we starting Kemba & Fournier because we gave out big contracts or if they give us the best chance of winning games?


Clearly Thibs et al must be seeing something in practice that leads them to think they give us the best chance to win.

On your defensive effort, theoretically that used to be Mitch - his first year, he had tremendous energy on the defensive side. I keep saying it - I think he is physically way off for whatever reason - probably shouldn't be playing.

Think Andre Drummond. Drummond got to big and ever since he has been not so great. He weakened his strengths by gaining weight. Mitch did the same hisnplaying weight probably should be 240-250 max. Mitch looks like he is well over 265-275. That weight gain is significant enough to slow him down just enough to become a okay defensive player and slow enough in the offense side to become ineffective.

Could be that Mitch just isn't in NBA shape yet

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Philc1
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11/15/2021  9:26 AM
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

With Fournier he giveth and taketh away. He’s not a good defender but unlike Bullock he can actually create his own shot which we need in a half court offense

Philc1
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11/15/2021  9:28 AM
martin wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
martin wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
martin wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
martin wrote:
NYKMentality wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.
He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Yes, Elfrid Payton. You didn't like him but you don't have to, the stats say a different story than your heart. Just like Bullock, who had never been an eye popping defender EVER, Elf did his small part when he could.

Here is 2 minutes of Google for me:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2021/sort/DRPM/position/1


2020-21 Real Plus-Minus - Point Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM ^DRPM RPM WINS
1 Mike Conley UTAH 51 29.4 1.25 3.12 4.37 8.28
2 Jamal Murray DEN 48 35.5 0.41 3.07 3.48 8.04
3 Chris Paul PHX 70 31.4 0.48 3.06 3.54 10.78
4 Elfrid Payton NY 63 23.6 -4.08 2.50 -1.58 0.48

What about in 2019-2020 when Elfrid was our starting full time pg and we went 21-45. How were his analytics that season?

Let us know how that's relevant to anything

Ofcourse it’s relevant. You are here talking up Payton like he was the reason we got the 4th seed last season and yet want to pretend like the previous season when he also was the full time PG and we were close to bottom of the league- that didn’t happen


It also doesn’t matter that Elf is not even in Phoenix’s rotation too I suppose

You have reading comprehension problems.

I pointed out that Elf was not that bad of a defender last season. No more no less. To clue people in, I used the phrase "Elf did his small part when he could" while showing some relevant stats. The context was Thibs as coach and the defense that went along with the team.

It's a weak ass argument to state what a player did in one season to try to negate anything he does the next. In a season where you have already described Fiz as being one of, if not THE worst coach the Knicks have ever had, players also did poorly. Duh. It has little context to the next season.

Regarding Phoenix, you think Elf or any 3rd string signed PG should play minutes even when you have CP3 and Payne holding down the PG minutes returning from a championship caliber team? That's what you expect?

You’re here cutting and pasting analytics to talk up Elfrid Payton. He sucks. The end.

Providing some analytics to back up your point is called being grounded in some evidence.

You are down to Neanderthal phrases like "He sucks". No **** Sherlock

Elf sucks because he does indeed suck. If that sounds “Neanderthal” then fine. It’s true.

Philc1
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11/15/2021  9:30 AM
franco12 wrote:
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

I don't know that anyone said Grimes would be that replacement first year?

I will admit, Grimes, in limited time, has looked deserving of more time.

I said this in the other thread that Briggs started - are we starting Kemba & Fournier because we gave out big contracts or if they give us the best chance of winning games?


Clearly Thibs et al must be seeing something in practice that leads them to think they give us the best chance to win.

On your defensive effort, theoretically that used to be Mitch - his first year, he had tremendous energy on the defensive side. I keep saying it - I think he is physically way off for whatever reason - probably shouldn't be playing.

We are starting Kemba and Fournier because they can shoot. You guys are acting like we are 0-13, we are 7-6 and that’s about where we should be with this team’s talent level


Mitch is dealing with yet another injury issue. I love the guy but he’s always hurt

LinToFields
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11/15/2021  11:13 AM
Philc1 wrote:
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

With Fournier he giveth and taketh away. He’s not a good defender but unlike Bullock he can actually create his own shot which we need in a half court offense


l
correct, but the Knicks don't need offense on the first team, they need defense. Particularly someone who can squeeze around a screen. Look, I'm not saying this is going to happen, Thibs is not the kind of coach who changes his decisions based on small sample sizes but it's the effort of that entire 1st team that I'm most concerned with. If I'm coaching that team, a player gets benched when they drag their ass and if they ask why I took them out I'd tell them "you looked tired".
knicks1248
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11/15/2021  12:20 PM
LinToFields wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
LinToFields wrote:When the Knicks drafted Grimes in the 1st round all I heard was he was an upgrade from Bullock and it meant they definitely weren't going to resign him. Next thing you know they sign Fournier who everyone considered a below average perimeter defender and HE became Bullocks replacement. I think the Knicks fell in love with fact that the he could handle the ball better than Bullock and totally ignored the fact that he doesn't play defense. I really think the only change the Knicks need to make is to bench Fournier and start Grimes. That first team doesn't have a single defender who puts in max effort. I think just having one would make a huge difference. It would at least turn those 10 pt defensive lapses to 5 which is enough for the 2nd team to overcome.

With Fournier he giveth and taketh away. He’s not a good defender but unlike Bullock he can actually create his own shot which we need in a half court offense


l
correct, but the Knicks don't need offense on the first team, they need defense. Particularly someone who can squeeze around a screen. Look, I'm not saying this is going to happen, Thibs is not the kind of coach who changes his decisions based on small sample sizes but it's the effort of that entire 1st team that I'm most concerned with. If I'm coaching that team, a player gets benched when they drag their ass and if they ask why I took them out I'd tell them "you looked tired".

If you think Fournier is the main reason for the starters defensive issues, your not paying attention.

Randle and Mitch struggle to guard anyone on the perimeter big or small.

Watch tonight how many times those 2 are late on 3 point shots, especially with Myles turner's ability to stretch the floor

ES
Uptown
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11/15/2021  12:52 PM
franco12 wrote:I’m encouraged and hopeful that maybe Tom can get things back on track - I’ve said before, sometimes guys need more structure on offense:

https://nypost.com/2021/11/14/tom-thibodeau-makes-adjustments-to-fix-knicks-offense/

Tom Thibodeau installed a little more play structure and less freelancing on Sunday. That freelancing mode may have resulted in an offense Fournier referred to as “stagnant.”

This is encouraging...Hopefully we will so more ball and body movement and less iso and standing around...

knicks1248
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11/15/2021  1:04 PM
Uptown wrote:
franco12 wrote:I’m encouraged and hopeful that maybe Tom can get things back on track - I’ve said before, sometimes guys need more structure on offense:

https://nypost.com/2021/11/14/tom-thibodeau-makes-adjustments-to-fix-knicks-offense/

Tom Thibodeau installed a little more play structure and less freelancing on Sunday. That freelancing mode may have resulted in an offense Fournier referred to as “stagnant.”

This is encouraging...Hopefully we will so more ball and body movement and less iso and standing around...

what about the other side of the ball where bigger issue exist

ES
Tom T needs to step up 2

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