knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Your not far off but need to look into centers leaving their assignment and rushing to defend the 3. Its not what you think. I know you have a hard on for Mitch, but its not as common a thing as you might think.

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

NYKMentality wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Yes, Elfrid Payton. You didn't like him but you don't have to, the stats say a different story than your heart. Just like Bullock, who had never been an eye popping defender EVER, Elf did his small part when he could.

Here is 2 minutes of Google for me:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2021/sort/DRPM/position/1

2020-21 Real Plus-Minus - Point Guards
RK	NAME		TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	^DRPM	RPM	WINS
1	Mike Conley	UTAH	51	29.4	1.25	3.12	4.37	8.28
2	Jamal Murray	DEN	48	35.5	0.41	3.07	3.48	8.04
3	Chris Paul	PHX	70	31.4	0.48	3.06	3.54	10.78
4	Elfrid Payton	NY	63	23.6	-4.08	2.50	-1.58	0.48

Nalod wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Im sorry if you like to cherry pick the skittles you like and ignore the rest.
The entirety of last season as you like to spazz out on and some how cheer "its even better now" included a player that started the vast majority of those games. YOu like to with great frequency and redundancy correlate that because our start this is better than last, we are a top one or two seed. Most of us like dudes who are positive. But after a while your ignoring some things. Like Elf's defensive ability.
I don't give a rats ass about PHX and his input or not. Im not following his minutes and I understand they were pretty darn good last year without him. Perhaps your not reading into the issues this year and magically think it works out as we did last year.
But Kemba is not defensively as good as Elf. So if you baffled was to whats going on, you might just consider the FACTS. Its not saying we can't compete in otherways. We are a better team. But if we talking defense its part of the equation.
We all agree Thibs took basically the same team year to year and improved it. He used the assets in place better. Bullocks got his grove back after his neck injury and Randle really rose up. Elf was a good defensive player all along. Nobody is crying to bring him back. We all want Kemba to keep doing well. But our defense inconsistent. If we are to be that elite team you paint to us it has to tighten up.
Other than 1248 there is not a fan here that is not thrilled with our start even with injuries and inconsistencies.
Elf was the PG that helped Thibs be COTY. Will he again have that honor? Just becuase you type it don't make it. The games have to tell the story, not your incessant propaganda.

It's all about cherry picking Skittles. Among other things, last season was the year of Payton Hate. Designated whipping boy. Nothing positive can be said to go with the extreme focus on his shortcomings (see also "Phil Jackson"). This year among other things is the year of whining about our perimeter defense. But of course there is no connection.

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You guys are really overrating Elfrid Payton. Suddenly now he’s the premier perimeter defender in the NBA

KnickDanger wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Im sorry if you like to cherry pick the skittles you like and ignore the rest.
The entirety of last season as you like to spazz out on and some how cheer "its even better now" included a player that started the vast majority of those games. YOu like to with great frequency and redundancy correlate that because our start this is better than last, we are a top one or two seed. Most of us like dudes who are positive. But after a while your ignoring some things. Like Elf's defensive ability.
I don't give a rats ass about PHX and his input or not. Im not following his minutes and I understand they were pretty darn good last year without him. Perhaps your not reading into the issues this year and magically think it works out as we did last year.
But Kemba is not defensively as good as Elf. So if you baffled was to whats going on, you might just consider the FACTS. Its not saying we can't compete in otherways. We are a better team. But if we talking defense its part of the equation.
We all agree Thibs took basically the same team year to year and improved it. He used the assets in place better. Bullocks got his grove back after his neck injury and Randle really rose up. Elf was a good defensive player all along. Nobody is crying to bring him back. We all want Kemba to keep doing well. But our defense inconsistent. If we are to be that elite team you paint to us it has to tighten up.
Other than 1248 there is not a fan here that is not thrilled with our start even with injuries and inconsistencies.
Elf was the PG that helped Thibs be COTY. Will he again have that honor? Just becuase you type it don't make it. The games have to tell the story, not your incessant propaganda.

It's all about cherry picking Skittles. Among other things, last season was the year of Payton Hate. Designated whipping boy. Nothing positive can be said to go with the extreme focus on his shortcomings (see also "Phil Jackson"). This year among other things is the year of whining about our perimeter defense. But of course there is no connection.

Payton was not a good perimeter defender. You guys are out of control. Bullock was an ok defender but top players had no problem scoring on him.

Something the Elf-lovers aren’t taking into account is last year was a wierd season. Most of the NBA’s better teams were exhausted after getting a short break from that stupid bubble tournament just a couple months earlier while the Knicks were well rested and had a full offseason to train under a real head coach. RJ and Randle both blossomed at the right time. We didn’t have a good season because of Elfrid Payton the guy is a scrub who is now rotting on the suns bench

Philc1 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Im sorry if you like to cherry pick the skittles you like and ignore the rest.
The entirety of last season as you like to spazz out on and some how cheer "its even better now" included a player that started the vast majority of those games. YOu like to with great frequency and redundancy correlate that because our start this is better than last, we are a top one or two seed. Most of us like dudes who are positive. But after a while your ignoring some things. Like Elf's defensive ability.
I don't give a rats ass about PHX and his input or not. Im not following his minutes and I understand they were pretty darn good last year without him. Perhaps your not reading into the issues this year and magically think it works out as we did last year.
But Kemba is not defensively as good as Elf. So if you baffled was to whats going on, you might just consider the FACTS. Its not saying we can't compete in otherways. We are a better team. But if we talking defense its part of the equation.
We all agree Thibs took basically the same team year to year and improved it. He used the assets in place better. Bullocks got his grove back after his neck injury and Randle really rose up. Elf was a good defensive player all along. Nobody is crying to bring him back. We all want Kemba to keep doing well. But our defense inconsistent. If we are to be that elite team you paint to us it has to tighten up.
Other than 1248 there is not a fan here that is not thrilled with our start even with injuries and inconsistencies.
Elf was the PG that helped Thibs be COTY. Will he again have that honor? Just becuase you type it don't make it. The games have to tell the story, not your incessant propaganda.

It's all about cherry picking Skittles. Among other things, last season was the year of Payton Hate. Designated whipping boy. Nothing positive can be said to go with the extreme focus on his shortcomings (see also "Phil Jackson"). This year among other things is the year of whining about our perimeter defense. But of course there is no connection.

Payton was not a good perimeter defender. You guys are out of control. Bullock was an ok defender but top players had no problem scoring on him.

Something the Elf-lovers aren’t taking into account is last year was a wierd season. Most of the NBA’s better teams were exhausted after getting a short break from that stupid bubble tournament just a couple months earlier while the Knicks were well rested and had a full offseason to train under a real head coach. RJ and Randle both blossomed at the right time. We didn’t have a good season because of Elfrid Payton the guy is a scrub who is now rotting on the suns bench

No Elf lovers dude. That scrub started 63 games on a team that won 41 games and was the 4th seed. Nobody discounts that it was Drose that turned the season around. We are discussing what elements are missing from last season. its just one element. Its a combo. One of which was Elf. He was signed as an back up here and he is with Suns.

martin wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

martin wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Yes, Elfrid Payton. You didn't like him but you don't have to, the stats say a different story than your heart. Just like Bullock, who had never been an eye popping defender EVER, Elf did his small part when he could.

Here is 2 minutes of Google for me:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2021/sort/DRPM/position/1

2020-21 Real Plus-Minus - Point Guards
RK	NAME		TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	^DRPM	RPM	WINS
1	Mike Conley	UTAH	51	29.4	1.25	3.12	4.37	8.28
2	Jamal Murray	DEN	48	35.5	0.41	3.07	3.48	8.04
3	Chris Paul	PHX	70	31.4	0.48	3.06	3.54	10.78
4	Elfrid Payton	NY	63	23.6	-4.08	2.50	-1.58	0.48

What about in 2019-2020 when Elfrid was our starting full time pg and we went 21-45. How were his analytics that season?

Let us know how that's relevant to anything

Ofcourse it’s relevant. You are here talking up Payton like he was the reason we got the 4th seed last season and yet want to pretend like the previous season when he also was the full time PG and we were close to bottom of the league- that didn’t happen

It also doesn’t matter that Elf is not even in Phoenix’s rotation too I suppose

martin wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

martin wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

martin wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots

Are you guys confusing Elfrid Payton with Gary Payton? Serious question.

He started 63 of 71 games. Are you confused he did not contribute? He was there before rose, He was there unless he was out or at the end he faded fast. But he was part of our success last year.

You're seriously talking up Elfrid Payton?

How much has Elfrid Payton improved his new team? What type of impact is he making?

He stinks.

We're 7-4 without him and in 2019-2020 our Defense stunk with him too. Before Thibs. He never impacted. Defense my ass coach Thibs is the Defensive guru who led us to the playoffs as a 4th seed and will lead us to the playoffs as reigning Coach of the Year this year too. Elfrid Payton? Funny.

Yes, Elfrid Payton. You didn't like him but you don't have to, the stats say a different story than your heart. Just like Bullock, who had never been an eye popping defender EVER, Elf did his small part when he could.

Here is 2 minutes of Google for me:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2021/sort/DRPM/position/1

2020-21 Real Plus-Minus - Point Guards
RK	NAME		TEAM	GP	MPG	ORPM	^DRPM	RPM	WINS
1	Mike Conley	UTAH	51	29.4	1.25	3.12	4.37	8.28
2	Jamal Murray	DEN	48	35.5	0.41	3.07	3.48	8.04
3	Chris Paul	PHX	70	31.4	0.48	3.06	3.54	10.78
4	Elfrid Payton	NY	63	23.6	-4.08	2.50	-1.58	0.48

What about in 2019-2020 when Elfrid was our starting full time pg and we went 21-45. How were his analytics that season?

Let us know how that's relevant to anything

Ofcourse it’s relevant. You are here talking up Payton like he was the reason we got the 4th seed last season and yet want to pretend like the previous season when he also was the full time PG and we were close to bottom of the league- that didn’t happen

It also doesn’t matter that Elf is not even in Phoenix’s rotation too I suppose

You have reading comprehension problems.

I pointed out that Elf was not that bad of a defender last season. No more no less. To clue people in, I used the phrase "Elf did his small part when he could" while showing some relevant stats. The context was Thibs as coach and the defense that went along with the team.

It's a weak ass argument to state what a player did in one season to try to negate anything he does the next. In a season where you have already described Fiz as being one of, if not THE worst coach the Knicks have ever had, players also did poorly. Duh. It has little context to the next season.

Regarding Phoenix, you think Elf or any 3rd string signed PG should play minutes even when you have CP3 and Payne holding down the PG minutes returning from a championship caliber team? That's what you expect?

You’re here cutting and pasting analytics to talk up Elfrid Payton. He sucks. The end.