Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:If Russell Westbrook was able to successfully lower KD's ceiling why shouldn't he be able to do the same for AD and LeBron? Anyone think LeBron will hand Westbrook the keys to the offense? What will Westbrook do off the ball?

If Russ is all about “winning” perhaps its time for him to demonstrate how. Melo to stay in the league had come to grips that he needed to not just be in better shape (not Westbrooks issue) but to do otherthings besides attack. This will be hard for him as he a double-double machine, MVP and a beast. How Vogel will be to influence him and others to play in will be a challange. You got Melo, Lebron, Rondo, and Wesbrook all Alphas on the back 9 of their careers. To succeed they need to be healthy (duh) but play enough to get the reps thru a long season and build chemistry for the playoff run.
The OKC version of Westbrook and KD with Harden was a different look. Westbrook is now on a talented team. He knows he is not 25 anymore and trying to build an MVP season. He has to know moving without the ball with this kind of talent will give him easier buckets and open things up for his mates. He will get open looks but has to hit them too!!!

Does this remind anyone of the 2003-04 Lakers with Gary Payton and Karl Malone?
BTW, how do the Lakers do it?
Is it that everyone dreams of playing for the storybook franchise?
Somehow MJ resisted the temptation?

That laker team did not buy into the triangle and the egos got in the way. Kobe had a not so great part in that team was well. This laker team knows everything we know and a hell of a lot more. They know Westbrook has to buy in and sacrifice WITHOUT DIALING HIS AGGRESSION. That is a tough order.

Jordan is the bench mark? Perhaps. Jordan was a different cat altogether. Magic/Lebron loved to win but win as a group. Jordan was the alpha that did it as the pack leader by force, not inclusion. Jordan burned out after the first three. That much is real. By the second go he was 35 and cooked. HE had to walk away. The Wizards thing was about him eventually buying the team from Abe Polin after retirement and him being GM. That did not happen.

The Lakers don’t fit unless Lebron and vogel can find a medium to make it blend and that is possible. Key is can Westbrook be effective off the ball rather than stand around waiting for the ball to come back to him as he has for his career? If he can learn this life will be much easier for him rather than pound the ball.
I can see progress early on if he is less aggressive and thats an issue. The second part is to stop thinking and react to play off the ball. They will have issues early. Its what happes later that counts.

all right i like these way-back machine conversations

re the malone lakers, my recall is that malone was a nasty prick to kobe, talking a lot of trash about his wife and claiming he was going to sleep with her, etc. that does a lot for team chemistry. of course who knows what kobe might have been doing to inflame the situation too.

re mj, i see him as having been a very inclusive leader. he became an outstanding playmaker, used his teammates brilliantly. was up to as many as 8 assists/game for a whole season. to me his issue was more that he couldn’t stand teammates not being as talented at finishing as he was when he set them up.

also i don’t see him as being burned out after the first three. i believe the conspiracy theory here - this was about his pops getting whacked and his insane gambling habit. i think stern told him to chill out away from the league for a couple of years.

Marv wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:If Russell Westbrook was able to successfully lower KD's ceiling why shouldn't he be able to do the same for AD and LeBron? Anyone think LeBron will hand Westbrook the keys to the offense? What will Westbrook do off the ball?

If Russ is all about “winning” perhaps its time for him to demonstrate how. Melo to stay in the league had come to grips that he needed to not just be in better shape (not Westbrooks issue) but to do otherthings besides attack. This will be hard for him as he a double-double machine, MVP and a beast. How Vogel will be to influence him and others to play in will be a challange. You got Melo, Lebron, Rondo, and Wesbrook all Alphas on the back 9 of their careers. To succeed they need to be healthy (duh) but play enough to get the reps thru a long season and build chemistry for the playoff run.
The OKC version of Westbrook and KD with Harden was a different look. Westbrook is now on a talented team. He knows he is not 25 anymore and trying to build an MVP season. He has to know moving without the ball with this kind of talent will give him easier buckets and open things up for his mates. He will get open looks but has to hit them too!!!

Does this remind anyone of the 2003-04 Lakers with Gary Payton and Karl Malone?
BTW, how do the Lakers do it?
Is it that everyone dreams of playing for the storybook franchise?
Somehow MJ resisted the temptation?

That laker team did not buy into the triangle and the egos got in the way. Kobe had a not so great part in that team was well. This laker team knows everything we know and a hell of a lot more. They know Westbrook has to buy in and sacrifice WITHOUT DIALING HIS AGGRESSION. That is a tough order.

Jordan is the bench mark? Perhaps. Jordan was a different cat altogether. Magic/Lebron loved to win but win as a group. Jordan was the alpha that did it as the pack leader by force, not inclusion. Jordan burned out after the first three. That much is real. By the second go he was 35 and cooked. HE had to walk away. The Wizards thing was about him eventually buying the team from Abe Polin after retirement and him being GM. That did not happen.

The Lakers don’t fit unless Lebron and vogel can find a medium to make it blend and that is possible. Key is can Westbrook be effective off the ball rather than stand around waiting for the ball to come back to him as he has for his career? If he can learn this life will be much easier for him rather than pound the ball.
I can see progress early on if he is less aggressive and thats an issue. The second part is to stop thinking and react to play off the ball. They will have issues early. Its what happes later that counts.

all right i like these way-back machine conversations

re the malone lakers, my recall is that malone was a nasty prick to kobe, talking a lot of trash about his wife and claiming he was going to sleep with her, etc. that does a lot for team chemistry. of course who knows what kobe might have been doing to inflame the situation too.

re mj, i see him as having been a very inclusive leader. he became an outstanding playmaker, used his teammates brilliantly. was up to as many as 8 assists/game for a whole season. to me his issue was more that he couldn’t stand teammates not being as talented at finishing as he was when he set them up.

also i don’t see him as being burned out after the first three. i believe the conspiracy theory here - this was about his pops getting whacked and his insane gambling habit. i think stern told him to chill out away from the league for a couple of years.

I wish I read where there was some reasonable conjecture on the matter for you to read. What you mention is likley part of the truth. The team also had Horace leaving and other dynamics that might not have played as well. Nothing I can point two but in the lore of 6-0 we forget there was two years of no chips and both Jordan and the team changed. That it happened as it did for reasons not so clear worked itself out. Jordan also got crazy money to return. 30mil a year back then was nearly double the max for the time. worth every penny but it mattered.

As for Malone and Kobe, Karl did the “Hunting little mexican girls” and kobe, likey in the peak of his immaturity and ego went off on that. For that team Phi had a big time with getting the ego’s aligned with the Triangle. The talent was there but getting them mentally in unison and trusting was harder for Lakers then Bulls because Jordan as you mentioned was the Alpha and drove it. Kobe did not have that one piece of Jordan DNA that desired hero ball in a way Jordan had it. Not the balls, not the talent, just the manner by which Jordan with supreme confidence trusted the ball would come back to him. Kobe had an insecurity that needed to prove things. JOrdan sociopathic nature was kind of above it. In the end that ego in more than just one season ironically cost Kobe a Chip in a season it should have happend. Kobe clashed with shack. Jordan I guess would have managed it differently.

Marv, does it appear that Pippin has years long PTSD from his association with Jodan? Seems Pippen, while financially ok seems to have this issue with his stature even as a HOF 6 chip guy. The Kukoc game vs knicks he failed to go back in, the bad contract, the divorce, the private Jet debacle, and being “Robin” even at the highest level sort of leaves a image of a guy who just is not actualized as an alltime great. Even his appearence these days. A guy trying to look younger than he is. Sort of always “trying to hard” but comes up short. Jordan on the other hand looks every big his age, is like the “godfather” of bad ass players, young wife, young kid, cigar smoking, golf player, stays out of the spotlight and seemingly makes money even by accident. Pippen seeks the spotlight and wrote a book as a cathortic attempt to get it off his chest? Jeez, even his ex wife gets more attention and she banging players half her age. Pip don’t smile enough.

Nalod wrote:

Marv wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:If Russell Westbrook was able to successfully lower KD's ceiling why shouldn't he be able to do the same for AD and LeBron? Anyone think LeBron will hand Westbrook the keys to the offense? What will Westbrook do off the ball?

If Russ is all about “winning” perhaps its time for him to demonstrate how. Melo to stay in the league had come to grips that he needed to not just be in better shape (not Westbrooks issue) but to do otherthings besides attack. This will be hard for him as he a double-double machine, MVP and a beast. How Vogel will be to influence him and others to play in will be a challange. You got Melo, Lebron, Rondo, and Wesbrook all Alphas on the back 9 of their careers. To succeed they need to be healthy (duh) but play enough to get the reps thru a long season and build chemistry for the playoff run.
The OKC version of Westbrook and KD with Harden was a different look. Westbrook is now on a talented team. He knows he is not 25 anymore and trying to build an MVP season. He has to know moving without the ball with this kind of talent will give him easier buckets and open things up for his mates. He will get open looks but has to hit them too!!!

Does this remind anyone of the 2003-04 Lakers with Gary Payton and Karl Malone?
BTW, how do the Lakers do it?
Is it that everyone dreams of playing for the storybook franchise?
Somehow MJ resisted the temptation?

That laker team did not buy into the triangle and the egos got in the way. Kobe had a not so great part in that team was well. This laker team knows everything we know and a hell of a lot more. They know Westbrook has to buy in and sacrifice WITHOUT DIALING HIS AGGRESSION. That is a tough order.

Jordan is the bench mark? Perhaps. Jordan was a different cat altogether. Magic/Lebron loved to win but win as a group. Jordan was the alpha that did it as the pack leader by force, not inclusion. Jordan burned out after the first three. That much is real. By the second go he was 35 and cooked. HE had to walk away. The Wizards thing was about him eventually buying the team from Abe Polin after retirement and him being GM. That did not happen.

The Lakers don’t fit unless Lebron and vogel can find a medium to make it blend and that is possible. Key is can Westbrook be effective off the ball rather than stand around waiting for the ball to come back to him as he has for his career? If he can learn this life will be much easier for him rather than pound the ball.
I can see progress early on if he is less aggressive and thats an issue. The second part is to stop thinking and react to play off the ball. They will have issues early. Its what happes later that counts.

all right i like these way-back machine conversations

re the malone lakers, my recall is that malone was a nasty prick to kobe, talking a lot of trash about his wife and claiming he was going to sleep with her, etc. that does a lot for team chemistry. of course who knows what kobe might have been doing to inflame the situation too.

re mj, i see him as having been a very inclusive leader. he became an outstanding playmaker, used his teammates brilliantly. was up to as many as 8 assists/game for a whole season. to me his issue was more that he couldn’t stand teammates not being as talented at finishing as he was when he set them up.

also i don’t see him as being burned out after the first three. i believe the conspiracy theory here - this was about his pops getting whacked and his insane gambling habit. i think stern told him to chill out away from the league for a couple of years.

I wish I read where there was some reasonable conjecture on the matter for you to read. What you mention is likley part of the truth. The team also had Horace leaving and other dynamics that might not have played as well. Nothing I can point two but in the lore of 6-0 we forget there was two years of no chips and both Jordan and the team changed. That it happened as it did for reasons not so clear worked itself out. Jordan also got crazy money to return. 30mil a year back then was nearly double the max for the time. worth every penny but it mattered.

As for Malone and Kobe, Karl did the “Hunting little mexican girls” and kobe, likey in the peak of his immaturity and ego went off on that. For that team Phi had a big time with getting the ego’s aligned with the Triangle. The talent was there but getting them mentally in unison and trusting was harder for Lakers then Bulls because Jordan as you mentioned was the Alpha and drove it. Kobe did not have that one piece of Jordan DNA that desired hero ball in a way Jordan had it. Not the balls, not the talent, just the manner by which Jordan with supreme confidence trusted the ball would come back to him. Kobe had an insecurity that needed to prove things. JOrdan sociopathic nature was kind of above it. In the end that ego in more than just one season ironically cost Kobe a Chip in a season it should have happend. Kobe clashed with shack. Jordan I guess would have managed it differently.

Marv, does it appear that Pippin has years long PTSD from his association with Jodan? Seems Pippen, while financially ok seems to have this issue with his stature even as a HOF 6 chip guy. The Kukoc game vs knicks he failed to go back in, the bad contract, the divorce, the private Jet debacle, and being “Robin” even at the highest level sort of leaves a image of a guy who just is not actualized as an alltime great. Even his appearence these days. A guy trying to look younger than he is. Sort of always “trying to hard” but comes up short. Jordan on the other hand looks every big his age, is like the “godfather” of bad ass players, young wife, young kid, cigar smoking, golf player, stays out of the spotlight and seemingly makes money even by accident. Pippen seeks the spotlight and wrote a book as a cathortic attempt to get it off his chest? Jeez, even his ex wife gets more attention and she banging players half her age. Pip don’t smile enough.

good question. of course we’re limited to public info about the guy but i’d say his die was cast long before he met michael jordan. remember when he first came into the league? weak, shy, submissive, the goofy little brother ready to absorb a beating and laugh about it? remember that locker room video of oakley manhandling him and slapping him around in the bulls locker room and a giggling pippen obviously well-accustomed to the role of court jester accommodating the hazing and bullying? later rodman more than happy to take advantage of pippen’s availability to be thrown around like a rag doll? those migraines that popped up to keep him out of crucial matchups?

actually I think these characteristics set him up to be in the best position possible as jordan’s robin. he totally thrived in the second banana role, free to be his most remarkably efficient best self as a secondary superstar playing within his means and not feeling the pressure of leading a team. look at how dramatically his career downturned in houston and portland without operating in the comfort of jordan’s shadow.

On another note: reading the news about the Knicks signing Brandon Knight and getting their roster to 19. Knight seems like a decent end of bench player, but what does it do to McBride or to the IQ as our PGOTF project?

I was big on Kris Dunn coming out of college but he never really translated at the NBA level. He’s got the Thibs connection, wondering if he has a shot to take Selden’s roster spot. 6’3 with a 6’9 wingspan. He’d be a bit of reclamation project.

EwingsGlass wrote:Dante Exum and Kris Dunn both just got cut.

I was big on Kris Dunn coming out of college but he never really translated at the NBA level. He’s got the Thibs connection, wondering if he has a shot to take Selden’s roster spot. 6’3 with a 6’9 wingspan. He’d be a bit of reclamation project.

Stanley Johnson would make sense due to his physical profile. He's a guy who can guard both forward spots. He's been an offensive trainwreck for most of his career tho.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/DarnellMayberry/status/1449421270588837898t=zSnLr7VzmQcjcp2aLuTiXw&s=19

Clean wrote:A nice breakdown of a Thibs play.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/NBEinstein/status/1449453557690818572

On that play, Barrett leaves his feet when making his handoff and jumps into his pick on Lyles. Kind of has to to sell going over the JR's pick. Question is - if he initiates contact is he about to catch a Offensive Foul if the refs are paying attention.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1450177859255947264

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I know we have Selden, but I think a tall wing defender like Amino is worth a look.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1450144446843084801

31 and been hurt over past 2 years.