blkexec wrote:I agree.....that Celtics trade was better. But it was early and knicks didn't want to trade KP to an east coast team. But that Celtics trade wouldve been better. Hindsight is always 20-20

I remember Bill Simmons saying the reason Boston didn't push harder with a counter offer back then was...you guessed it, injury concerns. Ainge also thought Phil was full of crap.

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Beating a dead horse.
and Phuching Phil was right all along.

In Porzingis’s case, do you know how many players 7-3 or taller have played 1,000 NBA games

Phuching Phil is right. That horse is even deader. Why the hell did the Zengenius draft him? His knees looked triangular?

Remember Little House Gaines, his trusted lone wolf scout? Granted, the drop off after KP was big. Not a damn thing wrong with drafting a player and then trading them at a higher value. Its an alien concept to us. We just as easy could have had Russell or Ok4 and lived with that. Russell needed 3 years to come out of it. Knick fans lose their shyt after 2.
That said, KP was on the block and got fired for it. There are a lot of things that we don't know. That was out there as a near certainty. Dolan likes stars and KP had the making of one. Hindisght is brilliant!!
Mills is culpable. He either sided with Dolan to stab Phil in the back or as GM failed to construct a deal that made sense. That he lacked true GM resume he did might not have seen what Phil saw. Phil might have sucked as an exec but he knows players. He played the game and coached it at the highest level with great success. He lost the pulp in his juice card and Dolan lost faith. I can't say it was regrettable firing him, its just the moment phil actually might have gotten something right was the irony.

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Beating a dead horse.
and Phuching Phil was right all along.

In Porzingis’s case, do you know how many players 7-3 or taller have played 1,000 NBA games

Phuching Phil is right. That horse is even deader. Why the hell did the Zengenius draft him? His knees looked triangular?

Remember Little House Gaines, his trusted lone wolf scout? Granted, the drop off after KP was big. Not a damn thing wrong with drafting a player and then trading them at a higher value. Its an alien concept to us. We just as easy could have had Russell or Ok4 and lived with that. Russell needed 3 years to come out of it. Knick fans lose their shyt after 2.
That said, KP was on the block and got fired for it. There are a lot of things that we don't know. That was out there as a near certainty. Dolan likes stars and KP had the making of one. Hindisght is brilliant!!
Mills is culpable. He either sided with Dolan to stab Phil in the back or as GM failed to construct a deal that made sense. That he lacked true GM resume he did might not have seen what Phil saw. Phil might have sucked as an exec but he knows players. He played the game and coached it at the highest level with great success. He lost the pulp in his juice card and Dolan lost faith. I can't say it was regrettable firing him, its just the moment phil actually might have gotten something right was the irony.

Phil got lots of things right. NYK life is not fair. That's why this FO should tread carefully.

Phil screwed some things up but he left us with cap space and all our #1's. What GM in recent memory did that? His 2 #1's were KP and Frank -- not bad. But the media and fans became a mob for him and we're still seeing the fallout from that.

KnickDanger wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:Mills is culpable. He either sided with Dolan to stab Phil in the back or as GM failed to construct a deal that made sense. That he lacked true GM resume he did might not have seen what Phil saw. Phil might have sucked as an exec but he knows players. He played the game and coached it at the highest level with great success. He lost the pulp in his juice card and Dolan lost faith. I can't say it was regrettable firing him, its just the moment phil actually might have gotten something right was the irony.

Other GMs did not want to talk to Phil Jackson. He didn't understand the basics of the salary cap. It's why he never returned phone calls because it made him look bad not to understand even the basics. Jackson also did not hire a trained GM, so Mills by default took the job, because at least he had some rudimentary understanding of how the cap worked.

No deal was going to make sense. Zinger only wanted to go to one team and would only sign an extension with one team. The only reason the Knicks got anything at all was because Dallas needed Zinger's Bird Rights. No one is going to get a good deal from a situation where they can only trade an injured guy to only one team. They could have traded him elsewhere and gotten a rental price.

The idea that Phil Jackson saved first round picks is just not true. Based on the Stepien Rule and because of trades made before he joined the Knicks, he was essentially prevented from trading first round picks even if he wanted to do it except in some limited cases. Also he never returned calls and no one wanted to talk deals with him because he didn't understand the basics of the cap so what trades can happen if you don't talk to anyone?

He did make some deals with the Bulls, his former team, where decision maker Paxton played for Jackson, and with former Bulls players, where Rose's agent, BJ Armstrong played for Jackson. Start to see a pattern?

Phil Jackson insisted on a complicated offense that he didn't have the personnel for and defied league trends.

The Knicks hired a 70 year old who never ran a front office before, who pushed a obsolete offensive system, who didn't understand the basic cap, who never returned calls and had preexisting enemies in the media. His signature moves? Give Noah a contract where he outbid himself twice over, give Lance Thomas a contract that no one could even understand, then coughed up trade assets for an overpaid injured point guard who couldn't shoot a three or play defense with off the court problems.

Phil Jackson set this franchise back at least five years. Probably seven.

I'm a ****ing football player and even I understood basic resource management better than Phil Jackson. There were NHL interns who could have done a better job just taking advice from Rotoworld articles than what Phil Jackson did. Jackson could have literally built a cardboard suggestion box, bring it to MIT Sloan, and randomly picked a rebuild plan better than the one he used.

Kind of tough to succeed at a job you've never been trained for while being a senior citizen without the benefit of generational level Hall Of Fame players on your roster.

I recognize this is America, but you guys do realize in non Western parts of the world, a **** up on the level of what Phil Jackson did, at the financial stakes involved, would get people shot. Right?

Phil Jackson ****ed his up so badly, if he wasn't an American, if he lived in a place where you can't just say random smug Yoda **** to the press, someone would have started lining up coaches and scouts and then started shooting them. Don't have to pay your contract if no one can cash that check right?

I think some of you underestimate the level of **** up created by Phil Jackson.

Your hate for Phil is palpable but saying that he was prevented from trading #1's is just not true. He could have easily traded future #1's but did not -- which to me may be the best thing he gave the franchise because that was the philosophy that put the Knicks in the s#!thole to begin with. And cap space was created under his watch -- again going against all Knick trends in recent times. I am not saying he was without fault, of course not. But the degree of hatred that rushes to pummel him with no objectivity I find...well interesting.

I will say this if I can chime in. Phil was right about KP not being a player to keep, and Phil was right about Frank since Frank is looking like a better prospect than DSJr. The fact that we did not get the right assets back for KP is on Mills, not Phil. And, Phil was smart not to trade our 1st rounders, which he could have done as KnickDanger noted. Now Phil did not commit to the job like he should have, and he was stuck in the past in trying to implement the triangle, but he probably is the only GM we have had in awhile in which you can honestly say the team was in a better position when he left than when he came in.

TheGame wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:Mills is culpable. He either sided with Dolan to stab Phil in the back or as GM failed to construct a deal that made sense. That he lacked true GM resume he did might not have seen what Phil saw. Phil might have sucked as an exec but he knows players. He played the game and coached it at the highest level with great success. He lost the pulp in his juice card and Dolan lost faith. I can't say it was regrettable firing him, its just the moment phil actually might have gotten something right was the irony.

Other GMs did not want to talk to Phil Jackson. He didn't understand the basics of the salary cap. It's why he never returned phone calls because it made him look bad not to understand even the basics. Jackson also did not hire a trained GM, so Mills by default took the job, because at least he had some rudimentary understanding of how the cap worked.

No deal was going to make sense. Zinger only wanted to go to one team and would only sign an extension with one team. The only reason the Knicks got anything at all was because Dallas needed Zinger's Bird Rights. No one is going to get a good deal from a situation where they can only trade an injured guy to only one team. They could have traded him elsewhere and gotten a rental price.

The idea that Phil Jackson saved first round picks is just not true. Based on the Stepien Rule and because of trades made before he joined the Knicks, he was essentially prevented from trading first round picks even if he wanted to do it except in some limited cases. Also he never returned calls and no one wanted to talk deals with him because he didn't understand the basics of the cap so what trades can happen if you don't talk to anyone?

He did make some deals with the Bulls, his former team, where decision maker Paxton played for Jackson, and with former Bulls players, where Rose's agent, BJ Armstrong played for Jackson. Start to see a pattern?

Phil Jackson insisted on a complicated offense that he didn't have the personnel for and defied league trends.

The Knicks hired a 70 year old who never ran a front office before, who pushed a obsolete offensive system, who didn't understand the basic cap, who never returned calls and had preexisting enemies in the media. His signature moves? Give Noah a contract where he outbid himself twice over, give Lance Thomas a contract that no one could even understand, then coughed up trade assets for an overpaid injured point guard who couldn't shoot a three or play defense with off the court problems.

Phil Jackson set this franchise back at least five years. Probably seven.

I'm a ****ing football player and even I understood basic resource management better than Phil Jackson. There were NHL interns who could have done a better job just taking advice from Rotoworld articles than what Phil Jackson did. Jackson could have literally built a cardboard suggestion box, bring it to MIT Sloan, and randomly picked a rebuild plan better than the one he used.

Kind of tough to succeed at a job you've never been trained for while being a senior citizen without the benefit of generational level Hall Of Fame players on your roster.

I recognize this is America, but you guys do realize in non Western parts of the world, a **** up on the level of what Phil Jackson did, at the financial stakes involved, would get people shot. Right?

Phil Jackson ****ed his up so badly, if he wasn't an American, if he lived in a place where you can't just say random smug Yoda **** to the press, someone would have started lining up coaches and scouts and then started shooting them. Don't have to pay your contract if no one can cash that check right?

I think some of you underestimate the level of **** up created by Phil Jackson.

Your hate for Phil is palpable but saying that he was prevented from trading #1's is just not true. He could have easily traded future #1's but did not -- which to me may be the best thing he gave the franchise because that was the philosophy that put the Knicks in the s#!thole to begin with. And cap space was created under his watch -- again going against all Knick trends in recent times. I am not saying he was without fault, of course not. But the degree of hatred that rushes to pummel him with no objectivity I find...well interesting.

I will say this if I can chime in. Phil was right about KP not being a player to keep, and Phil was right about Frank since Frank is looking like a better prospect than DSJr. The fact that we did not get the right assets back for KP is on Mills, not Phil. And, Phil was smart not to trade our 1st rounders, which he could have done as KnickDanger noted. Now Phil did not commit to the job like he should have, and he was stuck in the past in trying to implement the triangle, but he probably is the only GM we have had in awhile in which you can honestly say the team was in a better position when he left than when he came in.

Yeah, this is how I feel. Phil brought his problems on himself to a large degree, particularly with his personality (media despises him) and stubbornness. And because of that it got to where he pretty much had to go. But the need to paint the picture with such a wide brush including condemning him for things that he didn't do or were not his fault, and not giving him *any* credit -- well a sign of the times I suppose.

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:Mills is culpable. He either sided with Dolan to stab Phil in the back or as GM failed to construct a deal that made sense. That he lacked true GM resume he did might not have seen what Phil saw. Phil might have sucked as an exec but he knows players. He played the game and coached it at the highest level with great success. He lost the pulp in his juice card and Dolan lost faith. I can't say it was regrettable firing him, its just the moment phil actually might have gotten something right was the irony.

Other GMs did not want to talk to Phil Jackson. He didn't understand the basics of the salary cap. It's why he never returned phone calls because it made him look bad not to understand even the basics. Jackson also did not hire a trained GM, so Mills by default took the job, because at least he had some rudimentary understanding of how the cap worked.

No deal was going to make sense. Zinger only wanted to go to one team and would only sign an extension with one team. The only reason the Knicks got anything at all was because Dallas needed Zinger's Bird Rights. No one is going to get a good deal from a situation where they can only trade an injured guy to only one team. They could have traded him elsewhere and gotten a rental price.

The idea that Phil Jackson saved first round picks is just not true. Based on the Stepien Rule and because of trades made before he joined the Knicks, he was essentially prevented from trading first round picks even if he wanted to do it except in some limited cases. Also he never returned calls and no one wanted to talk deals with him because he didn't understand the basics of the cap so what trades can happen if you don't talk to anyone?

He did make some deals with the Bulls, his former team, where decision maker Paxton played for Jackson, and with former Bulls players, where Rose's agent, BJ Armstrong played for Jackson. Start to see a pattern?

Phil Jackson insisted on a complicated offense that he didn't have the personnel for and defied league trends.

The Knicks hired a 70 year old who never ran a front office before, who pushed a obsolete offensive system, who didn't understand the basic cap, who never returned calls and had preexisting enemies in the media. His signature moves? Give Noah a contract where he outbid himself twice over, give Lance Thomas a contract that no one could even understand, then coughed up trade assets for an overpaid injured point guard who couldn't shoot a three or play defense with off the court problems.

Phil Jackson set this franchise back at least five years. Probably seven.

I'm a ****ing football player and even I understood basic resource management better than Phil Jackson. There were NHL interns who could have done a better job just taking advice from Rotoworld articles than what Phil Jackson did. Jackson could have literally built a cardboard suggestion box, bring it to MIT Sloan, and randomly picked a rebuild plan better than the one he used.

Kind of tough to succeed at a job you've never been trained for while being a senior citizen without the benefit of generational level Hall Of Fame players on your roster.

I recognize this is America, but you guys do realize in non Western parts of the world, a **** up on the level of what Phil Jackson did, at the financial stakes involved, would get people shot. Right?

Phil Jackson ****ed his up so badly, if he wasn't an American, if he lived in a place where you can't just say random smug Yoda **** to the press, someone would have started lining up coaches and scouts and then started shooting them. Don't have to pay your contract if no one can cash that check right?

I think some of you underestimate the level of **** up created by Phil Jackson.

Sorry. I thought PJ did a better than average job in his tenure. The G-League and scouting organizations were hardened and continue to shine.

He inherited the sidekick superstar Melo who proceeded to make us all regret losing a handful of useful players, a great coach, and how many seasons for Melo mediocrity. Phil tried.

Noah's signing was coupled to Noah attracting Courtney. I miss Courtney.

And Phil really did try to complement Melo until he didn't. I cheered when the pandering stopped.

And Phil did what good companies do - two tracks, one for today, one for tomorrow, He established an expectation for hustle and pride. It still exists. as do the principles of Tex Winter.

I was not on board with that at all, but i certainly wasn't on board with the BS we got in return. At least phil was like.. if your not giving us back a young potential all satr who can start right now, then kick rocks.

knicks1248 wrote:Its funny how nobody had a problem giving brittle KP the max for 5 yrs , but are screaming about absorbing CP's 2 yr contract.

I was not on board with that at all, but i certainly wasn't on board with the BS we got in return. At least phil was like.. if your not giving us back a young potential all satr who can start right now, then kick rocks.

One guy was in his early 20s and the other guys is one bad slip away from hitting the wall. Also, the rumor is that the contract Pills was going to offer KP would have had a number of injury based incentives.