Chandler wrote:Jason Kidd reminds me a bit of George Karl or Donnie Nelson. I would say great basketball mind but obviously some other things creating a bit of a flawed individual who makes questionable choices, bad decisions etc. Not just drunk driving but all sorts of other things. I suspect Rose is doing his due diligence but given some of his statements (to the effect of looking for quality individuals, not just talent) I don't see Kidd as viable.

Also, whether I like it or not, I get the sense the Knicks current plan is first to get to relevance, then think big. Sounds nice. As we all know the trick is sometimes teams get trapped in relevance and then have to pay big money for sub-superstars etc. and they end up perpetually interesting but not real title material. I have to imagine this approach is borne out of frustration (out of playoffs for so long) and economics (sooner or later probably sooner cellar-dwelling will hurt the bottom line). Trading some young guys, FAs, and Tom Thibs seem likely in this scenario. And in a strange ways I can see the parallels that Thibs camp may be selling. Barret as some volume scorer akin to Rose (agree different styles but a guy who can score -- and imagine once his FT% improves). Mitch a very food defensive center akin to Noah...

Thibs is just not the one. His system is outdated. He lost control of the wolves, and for all the signs they want to develop youth, Thibs does best coaching vets.....

I don’t think he is the move and if he was I don’t think they do this in depth of a search. It would be a bad comedy to look at all those prospects and then pick the guy who was the nepotism/favor hire. They could have looked at half these guys and it would have done the same smokescreen job.

https://zonecoverage.com/2019/timberwolves/tom-thibodeaus-ousting-allows-timberwolves-to-reconnect-to-youth/

Thibodeau’s catchphrase that day was that Towns needed to “trust the pass” and that it was the lack of trust that did in the big man’s debut. This projection of blame towards the young players became an all too frequent and irresponsible crutch of Thibodeau’s. At least in his public commentary, Thibodeau almost never accepted personal blame.

His players, even the vets, slowly began to not stand for it. Immediately after Thibodeau bantered about Towns needing to “trust” Teague to beat his defender, Teague was openly oppositional.

“No. I think that is playing into their hands of trying to eliminate KAT,” said Teague of pursuing his matchup rather than Towns’.”When [the switch] happens, [he has to] make quick decisions and bury the guy in the post.”

For Thibodeau and this style, it’s not as if it doesn’t work, even in today’s NBA. It could; it did in Chicago. Instead, it’s about how it requires holistic continuity. Unlike in Chicago, that never happened in Minnesota. The continuity cracked in that 2017 season and Butler jack-hammered through the crack in 2018.

And that was a wrap.

Still, even in Thibodeau’s firing, optimism with this franchise should prevail. Towns was not ruined by the Thibodeau experiment; on the contrary, it can be argued that the now 23-year-old big man is in the midst of the best five-game stretch of his career. And in that alone lies the possibility of green pastures.

Yes, Thibodeau forced the Wolves to grow up fast, but he didn’t stunt them. Towns is one example of a flower blossoming through the cement. Sure, Thibodeau’s defibrillation was a bit much when all the young Wolves needed was a cup of coffee. But that’s OK; Butler was not dumped for pennies (Covington and Saric) and Rubio was traded for a first-round pick (that became Josh Okogie). Because of that, and through it all, the future remains bright.

As a knick fan with as many coaches as we have had you should know this. Not every young guy is a JVG, no retread is the same.
Fiz or fish were the next generation. They were not ready.
Riles took Showtime and created something entirely different. I hated the Nellie hire but in time realized we should have kept him.
Thibs wanted autonomy in Minny and he won’t have that here.
how has Minny faired post Thibs? Not so great.

wargames wrote:

Chandler wrote:Jason Kidd reminds me a bit of George Karl or Donnie Nelson. I would say great basketball mind but obviously some other things creating a bit of a flawed individual who makes questionable choices, bad decisions etc. Not just drunk driving but all sorts of other things. I suspect Rose is doing his due diligence but given some of his statements (to the effect of looking for quality individuals, not just talent) I don't see Kidd as viable.

Also, whether I like it or not, I get the sense the Knicks current plan is first to get to relevance, then think big. Sounds nice. As we all know the trick is sometimes teams get trapped in relevance and then have to pay big money for sub-superstars etc. and they end up perpetually interesting but not real title material. I have to imagine this approach is borne out of frustration (out of playoffs for so long) and economics (sooner or later probably sooner cellar-dwelling will hurt the bottom line). Trading some young guys, FAs, and Tom Thibs seem likely in this scenario. And in a strange ways I can see the parallels that Thibs camp may be selling. Barret as some volume scorer akin to Rose (agree different styles but a guy who can score -- and imagine once his FT% improves). Mitch a very food defensive center akin to Noah...

Thibs is just not the one. His system is outdated. He lost control of the wolves, and for all the signs they want to develop youth, Thibs does best coaching vets.....

I don’t think he is the move and if he was I don’t think they do this in depth of a search. It would be a bad comedy to look at all those prospects and then pick the guy who was the nepotism/favor hire. They could have looked at half these guys and it would have done the same smokescreen job.

He wouldn't be my choice either. I get the sense though that we're simply desperate not to suck the most

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/JCMacriNBA/status/1280450875354382336

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/JCMacriNBA/status/1280450875354382336

seems like a similar situation when Mark jackson was with GSW. He developed them and gave them an identity, kerr came in Polished them up and gave them a system.

Same thing Kidd did with a young Buck squad, developed them, gave them and identity, mike came in polish them up, and gave them a system.

OR, or you can say both Kidd and Mark Jackson reached their coaching peeks and abilities, and that they have lots of other negatives things around them that would ever keep them from succeeding as a head coach.

wargames wrote:
Thibs is just not the one. His system is outdated. He lost control of the wolves, and for all the signs they want to develop youth, Thibs does best coaching vets.....

1) Does the team have a true franchise player ( either a market max and/or a contender level player)?

If the answer is No, the coach is likely to be fired soon. (Name an NBA coach who left on his own terms period?)

2) If you are lucky enough to have a true franchise player, does he want you as the head coach?

If Durant said Atkinson needs to be the guy or I won't sign here, then the discussion is over. If Towns says I need Thibs, then the discussion is over. That's about it.

Poppovich could have easily ended up a career assistant somewhere. If the Admiral said this guy has to go. Or Duncan said this guy ahs to go.

James Harden wants a ring. However the way Harden plays is not actually in line with what it takes to get a ring. So you can have a franchise player but it doesn't matter what coach you have if the player is going to blame you for every failure. Thats not saying every coach is blameless, but if your elite guy doesn't buy into fundamental basketball, you won't get ahead and you'll be fired anyway.

Lots of teams would kill to have John Stockton on their coaching staff in any capacity. The Kings put one of his sons on their D/G league team to try to entice him. But he saw what happened to Jerry Sloan ( RIP) and that's part of the fallout of the modern NBA culture. Lots of talented guys who could help teams want nothing to do with coaching the endless parade of knuckleheads in the league.

What's going on outside the league won't help. You have all these voices telling young black American players that their aging out of touch white Wonderbread coach is the enemy.

If you don't have the talent, no one is the one. If your elite player doesn't want you and won't play fundamental basketball, then no one is the one.

Basically you have Coach K and everyone else in sports. Coach K can determine how his career will end. His situation is just very very rare. Everyone else takes a job expecting to be fired soon.

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:
Thibs is just not the one. His system is outdated. He lost control of the wolves, and for all the signs they want to develop youth, Thibs does best coaching vets.....

1) Does the team have a true franchise player ( either a market max and/or a contender level player)?

If the answer is No, the coach is likely to be fired soon. (Name an NBA coach who left on his own terms period?)

2) If you are lucky enough to have a true franchise player, does he want you as the head coach?

If Durant said Atkinson needs to be the guy or I won't sign here, then the discussion is over. If Towns says I need Thibs, then the discussion is over. That's about it.

Poppovich could have easily ended up a career assistant somewhere. If the Admiral said this guy has to go. Or Duncan said this guy ahs to go.

James Harden wants a ring. However the way Harden plays is not actually in line with what it takes to get a ring. So you can have a franchise player but it doesn't matter what coach you have if the player is going to blame you for every failure. Thats not saying every coach is blameless, but if your elite guy doesn't buy into fundamental basketball, you won't get ahead and you'll be fired anyway.

Lots of teams would kill to have John Stockton on their coaching staff in any capacity. The Kings put one of his sons on their D/G league team to try to entice him. But he saw what happened to Jerry Sloan ( RIP) and that's part of the fallout of the modern NBA culture. Lots of talented guys who could help teams want nothing to do with coaching the endless parade of knuckleheads in the league.

What's going on outside the league won't help. You have all these voices telling young black American players that their aging out of touch white Wonderbread coach is the enemy.

If you don't have the talent, no one is the one. If your elite player doesn't want you and won't play fundamental basketball, then no one is the one.

Basically you have Coach K and everyone else in sports. Coach K can determine how his career will end. His situation is just very very rare. Everyone else takes a job expecting to be fired soon.

How you feeling?

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:
Thibs is just not the one. His system is outdated. He lost control of the wolves, and for all the signs they want to develop youth, Thibs does best coaching vets.....

1) Does the team have a true franchise player ( either a market max and/or a contender level player)?

If the answer is No, the coach is likely to be fired soon. (Name an NBA coach who left on his own terms period?)

2) If you are lucky enough to have a true franchise player, does he want you as the head coach?

If Durant said Atkinson needs to be the guy or I won't sign here, then the discussion is over. If Towns says I need Thibs, then the discussion is over. That's about it.

Poppovich could have easily ended up a career assistant somewhere. If the Admiral said this guy has to go. Or Duncan said this guy ahs to go.

James Harden wants a ring. However the way Harden plays is not actually in line with what it takes to get a ring. So you can have a franchise player but it doesn't matter what coach you have if the player is going to blame you for every failure. Thats not saying every coach is blameless, but if your elite guy doesn't buy into fundamental basketball, you won't get ahead and you'll be fired anyway.

Lots of teams would kill to have John Stockton on their coaching staff in any capacity. The Kings put one of his sons on their D/G league team to try to entice him. But he saw what happened to Jerry Sloan ( RIP) and that's part of the fallout of the modern NBA culture. Lots of talented guys who could help teams want nothing to do with coaching the endless parade of knuckleheads in the league.

What's going on outside the league won't help. You have all these voices telling young black American players that their aging out of touch white Wonderbread coach is the enemy.

If you don't have the talent, no one is the one. If your elite player doesn't want you and won't play fundamental basketball, then no one is the one.

Basically you have Coach K and everyone else in sports. Coach K can determine how his career will end. His situation is just very very rare. Everyone else takes a job expecting to be fired soon.

You are not saying anything that is not already known for the most part. Coaches are hired to be fired and this is a players league.

Speaking of a players league, the poll below is a very small sample size but he still won by landslide. Thibs is a good coach but the the perception of his style and coaching habits are real.

Which coach, aside from your own, would you not want to play for? (52 votes)

Tom Thibodeau (34.6%)
Jim Boylen (21.1%)
Igor Kokoskov (11.5%)
Nate McMillan (5.7%)
Stan Van Gundy (4.8%)
Gregg Popovich (3.8%)
Lloyd Pierce, Quin Snyder, Erik Spoelstra, Rick Carlisle, Nick Nurse, Alvin Gentry, Luke Walton, Steve Clifford, Scott Skiles (2%)
Jeff Van Gundy (1%)

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/JCMacriNBA/status/1280450875354382336

seems like a similar situation when Mark jackson was with GSW. He developed them and gave them an identity, kerr came in Polished them up and gave them a system.

Same thing Kidd did with a young Buck squad, developed them, gave them and identity, mike came in polish them up, and gave them a system.

Or you can say as the talent developed and the team evolved the Coach was apparently found to be the weak link. No coach with a chip ever did so without talent. Once given the talent it becomes evident often the coach is the issue when a team hits the brick wall.

Kidd and Jax were great players and perhaps not terrible coaches, just not good enough. I trust our new execs to figure this one out. Can't say we don't make enough hires over time!!!!

Just to add to it, they were a young team and while they had talent they just hadn’t figured it out. Also, JKidd’s defense was bad.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/2018/1/23/16921324/jason-kidd-fired-bucks-coach-reasons-why

Basically he slots to be just as much a development coach, as Atkinson. It’s the same story, the difference was the FO wanted to go into more competitive Playoff mode and Kidd was ready. Bud came in a better, proven playoff coach and took them that next step.

Both Kidd and Atkinson are the exact type of coach we need for where the Knicks are now. There is talent there, they need a coach to support their development and teach them how to win. After that they can see if they need a new coach to teach them how to win in the playoffs.

Uptown wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:
Thibs is just not the one. His system is outdated. He lost control of the wolves, and for all the signs they want to develop youth, Thibs does best coaching vets.....

1) Does the team have a true franchise player ( either a market max and/or a contender level player)?

If the answer is No, the coach is likely to be fired soon. (Name an NBA coach who left on his own terms period?)

2) If you are lucky enough to have a true franchise player, does he want you as the head coach?

If Durant said Atkinson needs to be the guy or I won't sign here, then the discussion is over. If Towns says I need Thibs, then the discussion is over. That's about it.

Poppovich could have easily ended up a career assistant somewhere. If the Admiral said this guy has to go. Or Duncan said this guy ahs to go.

James Harden wants a ring. However the way Harden plays is not actually in line with what it takes to get a ring. So you can have a franchise player but it doesn't matter what coach you have if the player is going to blame you for every failure. Thats not saying every coach is blameless, but if your elite guy doesn't buy into fundamental basketball, you won't get ahead and you'll be fired anyway.

Lots of teams would kill to have John Stockton on their coaching staff in any capacity. The Kings put one of his sons on their D/G league team to try to entice him. But he saw what happened to Jerry Sloan ( RIP) and that's part of the fallout of the modern NBA culture. Lots of talented guys who could help teams want nothing to do with coaching the endless parade of knuckleheads in the league.

What's going on outside the league won't help. You have all these voices telling young black American players that their aging out of touch white Wonderbread coach is the enemy.

If you don't have the talent, no one is the one. If your elite player doesn't want you and won't play fundamental basketball, then no one is the one.

Basically you have Coach K and everyone else in sports. Coach K can determine how his career will end. His situation is just very very rare. Everyone else takes a job expecting to be fired soon.

You are not saying anything that is not already known for the most part. Coaches are hired to be fired and this is a players league.

Speaking of a players league, the poll below is a very small sample size but he still won by landslide. Thibs is a good coach but the the perception of his style and coaching habits are real.

Which coach, aside from your own, would you not want to play for? (52 votes)

Tom Thibodeau (34.6%)
Jim Boylen (21.1%)
Igor Kokoskov (11.5%)
Nate McMillan (5.7%)
Stan Van Gundy (4.8%)
Gregg Popovich (3.8%)
Lloyd Pierce, Quin Snyder, Erik Spoelstra, Rick Carlisle, Nick Nurse, Alvin Gentry, Luke Walton, Steve Clifford, Scott Skiles (2%)
Jeff Van Gundy (1%)

I knew Thibs wasnt popular with some players, but damn. Rose had his finger on the pulse of players, as a big time agent. He has to know this already. If he still hires Thibs..