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Nalod
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6/5/2020  3:19 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
martin wrote:I have to say, I am still shocked by the lack of base human empathy that we are seeing from the police. I live in a pretty sheltered world in suburban American and am just shocked at how low this is going, and how prevalent it is, and what one human will do to another in a position of physical power. Utterly disgusting

Martin, if noone has said it already, or even if they have. U and Andrew have allowed this platform that you guys created to bring as much awareness as possible to the many issues. Through the effort of your own as well as the many others who actively participate. Being able to have these discussions throughout the years leading to this point.

Its greatly greatly greatly appreciated!


Here here!!!!!
AUTOADVERT
BigDaddyG
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6/5/2020  3:41 PM
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
martin wrote:I have to say, I am still shocked by the lack of base human empathy that we are seeing from the police. I live in a pretty sheltered world in suburban American and am just shocked at how low this is going, and how prevalent it is, and what one human will do to another in a position of physical power. Utterly disgusting

Martin, if noone has said it already, or even if they have. U and Andrew have allowed this platform that you guys created to bring as much awareness as possible to the many issues. Through the effort of your own as well as the many others who actively participate. Being able to have these discussions throughout the years leading to this point.

Its greatly greatly greatly appreciated!


Here here!!!!!

Ditto, disagreements on Dolan aside. I appreciate the forum you guys presented us.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
ekstarks94
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6/5/2020  3:55 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
martin wrote:I have to say, I am still shocked by the lack of base human empathy that we are seeing from the police. I live in a pretty sheltered world in suburban American and am just shocked at how low this is going, and how prevalent it is, and what one human will do to another in a position of physical power. Utterly disgusting

Martin, if noone has said it already, or even if they have. U and Andrew have allowed this platform that you guys created to bring as much awareness as possible to the many issues. Through the effort of your own as well as the many others who actively participate. Being able to have these discussions throughout the years leading to this point.

Its greatly greatly greatly appreciated!


Here here!!!!!

Ditto, disagreements on Dolan aside. I appreciate the forum you guys presented us.

Agreed..I am not a long timer at this site like most folks but I agree..so many issues outside of basketball have been discussed here....I appreciate the forum to read different points of view.
smackeddog
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6/5/2020  4:03 PM
BigDaddyG
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6/5/2020  4:36 PM
An honest, quick take on the failures of the law enforcement culture by a former cop.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Uptown
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6/5/2020  4:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/5/2020  4:40 PM
Police officers, Teachers, Firemen, etc are all considered essential workers....I am a teacher. And as a teacher I am a mandatory reporter. In other words, if I know of or witnessed a fellow teacher verbally and or physically abusing a student, I am mandated to report this to Administration. If I don't, its a good chance I will lose my job along with the abusive teacher. There is no such thing as a blue wall of silence among teachers...

In order to become a teacher, I am required to earn a 4 yr degree. In my case, I earned my bachelors degree in Journalism, so I had to get my Masters in Education (6 yrs all together) in order to teach kids. Not only that, but the classes that I was mandated to take, involved classes that taught me how to work with a diverse group of kids, ranging from various disabilities and different ethnicity's.

With that said, Police officers should be mandated to to take courses in deescalation, coping etc. Might be a good idea to make them have to earn a 4 yr degree in criminal justice in order to become a police officer. Something has to give!

smackeddog
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6/5/2020  4:46 PM

Good riddance- they won’t resign in protest at colleagues pushing a 75 year old guy over, but will resign over their colleagues being held accountable for it. What warped morality.

BigDaddyG
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6/5/2020  5:11 PM
Uptown wrote:Police officers, Teachers, Firemen, etc are all considered essential workers....I am a teacher. And as a teacher I am a mandatory reporter. In other words, if I know of or witnessed a fellow teacher verbally and or physically abusing a student, I am mandated to report this to Administration. If I don't, its a good chance I will lose my job along with the abusive teacher. There is no such thing as a blue wall of silence among teachers...

In order to become a teacher, I am required to earn a 4 yr degree. In my case, I earned my bachelors degree in Journalism, so I had to get my Masters in Education (6 yrs all together) in order to teach kids. Not only that, but the classes that I was mandated to take, involved classes that taught me how to work with a diverse group of kids, ranging from various disabilities and different ethnicity's.

With that said, Police officers should be mandated to to take courses in deescalation, coping etc. Might be a good idea to make them have to earn a 4 yr degree in criminal justice in order to become a police officer. Something has to give!


Yeah, you would think it would mandated for departments across the country. The sad thing is there are even small town judges who don't need to meet that requirement.

https://www.whec.com/news/want-to-be-a-village-or-town-judge-theres-no-experience-needed/5254627/

If you find yourself in a local courtroom, you might be surprised to learn the judge deciding your fate likely only had one week of legal training before taking the bench.

If you want to be a massage therapist here in New York, you need 1,000 hours of training before you can become licensed.


Cosmetologists need 300 hours of training and nail technicians are required to have 250 hours of training.

However, if you want to be a village or town justice, if you can get yourself elected, you'll just need to take a one-week training class and pass a multiple choice test before taking the bench.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
BigDaddyG
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6/5/2020  5:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/5/2020  5:15 PM
smackeddog wrote:

Good riddance- they won’t resign in protest at colleagues pushing a 75 year old guy over, but will resign over their colleagues being held accountable for it. What warped morality.


"Solidarity! Nobody, not even our bosses, have the right to infringe upon our rights to be scumbags!"
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
BigDaddyG
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6/5/2020  6:44 PM
https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Pentagon-disarms-guardsmen-in-D-C-in-signal-of-15320290.php
"The whole purpose behind that was a purposeful show of de-escalation," said one U.S. defense official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss an order that hasn't been made public yet. "We're here, but we're walking things down."

The White House was not involved in the decision, a senior administration official said. Trump has encouraged the National Guard to be armed as a show of force.

Still...notice the words chosen. Similar to the same rhetoric used to dismiss MLK Jr. during the Civil Rights movement.

Huntsville’s police chief and the Madison County sheriff defended the use of tear gas and rubber bullets on protesters in downtown Huntsville Wednesday evening, claiming the demonstrators “came here for the fight, not us.”

Chief Mark McMurray said Thursday that demonstrators — whom he described as “anarchists” — “brought this on themselves” after refusing to disperse following the expiration of a permit at 6:30 p.m. Wednesday evening.

“We kept asking them to leave,” McMurray said. “They brought this — this group brought this on themselves. They came here for the fight, not us.”
Video from the scene shows demonstrators in the aftermath of a peaceful Alabama NAACP rally peppered with rubber bullets and tear gas as law enforcement helicopters hovered overhead and police with guns moved among the rooftops in downtown.

One protester who was at the demonstration described her experience.

“After being forced into the park, the police boxed in the crowd and then shot tear gas behind us,” said Kelly Jovenitti. “I was forced to run into a cloud of it. Everything was chaotic. I couldn’t see. I know someone grabbed me and a medic was called. Some kind lady told me to take off my glasses and quickly rinsed my eyes the best she could.”

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GustavBahler
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6/5/2020  7:06 PM
BigDaddyG
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6/6/2020  12:03 AM
This video haunts me as much as all the others. Years ago, but it was another case where the officer in question was acquitted and let back on the force. The victim in question was white, but it was still swept under the rug. From what I've read and hear from SWAT trainers the goal is to de-eascalate the situation. We're seeing that's not being practiced.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
smackeddog
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6/6/2020  3:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/6/2020  3:19 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:This video haunts me as much as all the others. Years ago, but it was another case where the officer in question was acquitted and let back on the force. The victim in question was white, but it was still swept under the rug. From what I've read and hear from SWAT trainers the goal is to de-eascalate the situation. We're seeing that's not being practiced.

That video has disturbed me ever since I saw a couple of years ago- it was the poor man's terror and pleading

smackeddog
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6/6/2020  12:33 PM
Every time you think we've hit rock bottom Fox news digs another ditch

BRIGGS
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6/6/2020  12:50 PM
Laws for police need to change.
Racism is a whole different level of monster that will take generational time to fix. Growing up I don’t remember anything like this in Brooklyn. I just had friends and they came in every race and denomination. BUT the prevailing theme to me here is the ABUSE by police and while African Americans take the brunt on a % basis - the POLICE can abd will be equal opportunity abusers. It’s simply giving power to individuals who at random times abuse because THEY can. I do not believe it’s a thing of a few bad apples BUT rather a serious institutional Issue. My take is that police engagement has to change the force needs to be reset And news bylaws implemented. I’d call for mass firings for those who have more than a 1/2 dozen complains of abuse against them incorporate new laws of engagement with a new standard in policies concerning police power.
RIP Crushalot😞
smackeddog
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6/6/2020  12:56 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Laws for police need to change.
Racism is a whole different level of monster that will take generational time to fix. Growing up I don’t remember anything like this in Brooklyn. I just had friends and they came in every race and denomination. BUT the prevailing theme to me here is the ABUSE by police and while African Americans take the brunt on a % basis - the POLICE can abd will be equal opportunity abusers. It’s simply giving power to individuals who at random times abuse because THEY can. I do not believe it’s a thing of a few bad apples BUT rather a serious institutional Issue. My take is that police engagement has to change the force needs to be reset And news bylaws implemented. I’d call for mass firings for those who have more than a 1/2 dozen complains of abuse against them incorporate new laws of engagement with a new standard in policies concerning police power.

BRIGGS and smackeddog agreeing on a political issue for a change!

There was a very interesting Bill Simmons podcast with someone who's compiled a lot of data on police brutality and reform, some of it quite surprising- (eg education programmes increase awareness among them but doesn't alter fatality rates), they suggests some steps to take:

https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2020/6/3/21278867/deray-mckesson-on-ending-police-brutality-plus-steve-kerr-pete-carroll-and-gregg-popovich

newyorknewyork
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6/7/2020  12:27 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/06/breonna-taylor-protesters-protected-lone-lmpd-officer/3166914001/

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Allanfan20
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6/7/2020  12:53 AM
GustavBahler wrote:

Just an all around slime-ball crook. I’d say it’s unbelievable but I sadly believe it.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
newyorknewyork
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6/7/2020  8:12 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/7/2020  8:12 AM
This is an absolute must read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapolis-kroll.html

Over the past five years, as demands for reform have mounted in the aftermath of police violence in cities like Ferguson, Mo., Baltimore and now Minneapolis, police unions have emerged as one of the most significant roadblocks to change. The greater the political pressure for reform, the more defiant the unions often are in resisting it — with few city officials, including liberal leaders, able to overcome their opposition.

They aggressively protect the rights of members accused of misconduct, often in arbitration hearings that they have battled to keep behind closed doors. And they have also been remarkably effective at fending off broader change, using their political clout and influence to derail efforts to increase accountability.

While rates of union membership have dropped by half nationally since the early 1980s, to 10 percent, higher membership rates among police unions give them resources they can spend on campaigns and litigation to block reform. A single New York City police union has spent more than $1 million on state and local races since 2014.

In St. Louis, when Kim Gardner was elected the top prosecutor four years ago, she set out to rein in the city’s high rate of police violence. But after she proposed a unit within the prosecutor’s office that would independently investigate misconduct, she ran into the powerful local police union.

The union pressured lawmakers to set aside the proposal, which many supported but then never brought to a vote. Around the same time, a lawyer for the union waged a legal fight to limit the ability of the prosecutor’s office to investigate police misconduct. The following year, a leader of the union said Ms. Gardner should be removed “by force or by choice.”

Politicians tempted to cross police unions have long feared being labeled soft on crime by the unions, or more serious consequences.

When Steve Fletcher, a Minneapolis city councilman and frequent Police Department critic, sought to divert money away from hiring officers and toward a newly created office of violence prevention, he said, the police stopped responding as quickly to 911 calls placed by his constituents. “It operates a little bit like a protection racket,” Mr. Fletcher said of the union.

A spokesman for the Minneapolis Police Department said he was unable to comment.

A few days after prosecutors in Minneapolis charged an officer with murder in the death of George Floyd, the president of the city’s police union denounced political leaders, accusing them of selling out his members and firing four officers without due process.

“It is despicable behavior,” the union president, Lt. Bob Kroll, wrote in a letter to union members obtained by a local reporter. He also referred to protesters as a “terrorist movement.”

Mr. Kroll, who is himself the subject of at least 29 complaints, has also chided the Obama administration for its “oppression of police,” and praised President Trump as someone who “put the handcuffs on the criminals instead of us.”

In other instances, unions have not resisted reforms outright, but have made them difficult to put in place. Federal intervention is often one of the few reliable ways of reforming police departments. But in Cleveland, the union helped slow the adoption of reforms mandated by a federal consent decree, according to Jonathan Smith, a former U.S. Justice Department official who oversaw the government’s investigation of policing practices there.

Mr. Smith said union officials had signaled to rank-and-file officers that the changes should not be taken seriously, such as a requirement that they report and investigate instances in which they pointed a gun. “I heard this in lots of departments,” Mr. Smith said. “‘Wait it out. Do the minimum you have to do.’” He said he believed that the reforms have since taken hold.

Steve Loomis, the Cleveland police union president at the time of the consent decree, said he and his colleagues saw some of the mandated rules as counterproductive.

“Every time a kid points a gun, he has to do a use-of-force investigation,” Mr. Loomis said of his younger colleagues. “Now guys aren’t pointing their guns when they should be pointing their guns.”

Robert Bruno, a professor of labor relations at the University of Illinois, posited that many police officers see themselves as authority figures who equate compromise with weakness. Other experts said it was rational for police unions, which are often regarded with suspicion by others in the labor movement and see themselves as distinct from it, to protect their members so relentlessly.

“A major role for police unions is basically as an insurance policy,” said Dale Belman, a labor relations professor at Michigan State University who has consulted for police unions. “The feeling of a lot of officers is that it’s very easy to sacrifice them. Something goes wrong and boom.”

This has only become more true in an era of ubiquitous cellphone cameras and social media. And the feeling of being under siege has only strengthened demands from union members that they be protected.

In Baltimore, where the city and the Justice Department reached a consent decree in 2017 to overhaul police conduct, the union has described a police department in chaos, with severe staff shortages and low morale. Those who remain said they feel unsupported by their commanders.

“They’re ready to throw police officers under the bus to appease the media and don’t support us even when our actions are appropriate,” said one officer surveyed in a report released last year by a group helping the department implement reforms.

It remains to be seen how the unions will respond to reform initiatives by cities and states since Mr. Floyd’s death, including a new ban on chokeholds in Minneapolis. But in recent days, unions have continued to show solidarity with officers accused of abusive behavior.

The president of a police union in Buffalo said the union stood “100 percent” behind two officers who were suspended on Thursday after appearing to push an older man who fell and suffered head injuries. The union president said the officers “were simply following orders.”

All 57 officers on the Emergency Response Team, a special squad formed to respond to riots, had resigned from their posts on the team in support of the suspended officers, according to The Buffalo News.

Unions can be so effective at defending their members that cops with a pattern of abuse can be left untouched, with fatal consequences. In Chicago, after the killing of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald by officer Jason Van Dyke, it emerged that Mr. Van Dyke had been the subject of multiple complaints already. But a “code of silence” about misconduct was effectively “baked into” the labor agreements between police unions and the city, according to a report conducted by task force.

New York City’s police unions have been among the most vocal opponents of reforms in Albany, including calls to reform the state’s tight restrictions on the disciplinary records of officers. Amid growing momentum in recent days for making those records public, the city’s police unions joined statewide police groups on Friday in urging the Legislature to keep the law in place.

“No rational policy discussion can take place against a backdrop of burning police vehicles and looted store fronts,” read a memo of opposition from the police groups.

The city’s patrol officers’ union, with roughly 24,000 active members, and another representing sergeants have been sharp critics of Mayor Bill de Blasio, who took office in 2014 riding a wave of discontent over stop-and-frisk policing.

The mayor promised reform, but after the fatal shooting of two uniformed officers in Brooklyn by a man who invoked the police killing of Eric Garner, Mr. de Blasio faced an all-but-declared revolt by rank-and-file officers.

The head of the patrol officers’ union, Patrick J. Lynch, said at the time that the mayor had “blood on the hands.” Many officers turned their backs on Mr. de Blasio at the slain officers’ funerals. And, days later, many more engaged in what amounted to a de facto work slowdown. Arrests plummeted as did tickets for minor infractions.

Mr. Lynch has stood by officers even when there is ample evidence of misconduct, defending the officers who killed Amadou Diallo in 1999 and another who, in 2008, shoved a bicyclist to the ground during a protest ride. The union provided lawyers for the officers involved in both cases.

Kim Gardner, a reform-minded prosecutor in St. Louis, said police union objections have blocked her proposal for a unit that would investigate police misconduct independently of the department.

When liberal politicians do try to advance reform proposals, union officials have resorted to highly provocative rhetoric and hard-boiled campaign tactics to lash out at them. This past week, the head of the sergeants’ union in New York posted a police report on Twitter revealing personal information about the daughter of Mr. de Blasio, who had been arrested during a protest.

In St. Louis, the business manager of a local police union, Jeff Roorda, penned an unflattering poem about Ms. Gardner, the local prosecutor, in a union newsletter that read: “You’re a disaster, Misses Kim/ Your heart is dark and vile/You’d rather charge a policeman/ Than all the murders you could file.” The union has also run social media ads against an alderwoman who has also advocated reform, Megan Green, referring to her as a “Communist Cop-Hater” and superimposing her head on the body of Mao Zedong.

Mr. Roorda declined to comment.

At times, the strident leadership appears to beget still more strident leadership. In 2017, Chicago’s Fraternal Order of Police elected a new president who denounced a federal Justice Department investigation prompted by the shooting of Mr. McDonald as “politically motivated” and pledged to fight the “anti-police movement.” That president was ousted this year by a candidate who had derided the ensuing consent decree as “nonsense” and criticized his predecessor for failing to stand up to City Hall.

While statistics compiled by the group Campaign Zero show that police killings and shootings in Chicago have fallen following a set of reforms enacted after a federal investigation, advocates worry that the union will undermine them in contract negotiations. Police unions have traditionally used their bargaining agreements to create obstacles to disciplining officers. One paper by researchers at the University of Chicago found that incidents of violent misconduct in Florida sheriff’s offices increased by about 40 percent after deputies gained collective bargaining rights.

“By continuing to elect people who stand for those values, it more deeply entrenches the break between the community and the police,” said Karen Sheley, director of the Police Practices Project for the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois. “It makes it far more difficult for reform efforts to go forward.”

As critics of the police get louder and more mainstream, union members have elected more aggressive leaders. In Minneapolis in 2015, Mr. Kroll defeated the union’s longtime president by a nearly two-to-one margin after the city installed a police chief intent on reform.

“I believe Bob Kroll was elected out of fear,” said Janeé Harteau, the police chief at the time, adding that Mr. Kroll’s message to officers was: “We are the only ones that support you. Your community doesn’t support you. Your police chief is trying to get you fired.”

Mr. Kroll did not return a call seeking comment. John Elder, the Police Department spokesman, said the current police chief and Mr. Kroll have a strong relationship.

Ms. Harteau said that the department introduced new rules requiring officers to protect the “sanctity of life” and intervene if they saw a colleague improperly using force, but that the union under Mr. Kroll undermined the changes by protecting officers who violated the policies. Data on police shootings and killings in the city appear to show little change despite the reforms.

“I struggle to know if they have gotten more extreme, or if the world has changed and they haven’t,” Mr. Fletcher, the city councilman, said of the union. “Either way, they are profoundly misaligned with the moment.”

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GustavBahler
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6/7/2020  11:24 AM
"Making America Great Again."


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