martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Want change? vote.

For me, this is the linchpin. More people have to come out and vote. Only way really

Vote for more of the same? Because that will fix it? You really don't get it do you?

Are you that simplistic? You really think I meant vote more for the same? That's the only possibility of what I was meaning?

Come on man, do better

Ok then clarify for me. How this will change through voting given our likely lack of choices in Trump and Biden?
Why would more people come out and vote when both parties deliver the same results? Corporate bailouts.

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Want change? vote.

For me, this is the linchpin. More people have to come out and vote. Only way really

Vote for more of the same? Because that will fix it? You really don't get it do you?

Are you that simplistic? You really think I meant vote more for the same? That's the only possibility of what I was meaning?

Come on man, do better

Ok then clarify for me. How this will change through voting given our likely lack of choices in Trump and Biden?
Why would more people come out and vote when both parties deliver the same results? Corporate bailouts.

Why are these even your questions? Are you even serious on this topic and want of change or do you want to keep banging your head against the concrete wall and hope for results?

Lots of different levels of voting and times to do so. You want to offer up a fluff Trump/Biden only vote and think that's even remotely intellectually honest about what we are talking about?

Do better otherwise you are wasting all of out time

Martin - You want to change through voting and I am the one banging my head against the wall? Didn't enough democrats come out and vote Obama into power and give him both houses of Govt? So what the **** did he change? At what level do I vote to affect change? City, County? State? Where are my non democrat/republican choices? Instead of telling me to do better answer any of these questions? That so hard to do?

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Want change? vote.

For me, this is the linchpin. More people have to come out and vote. Only way really

Vote for more of the same? Because that will fix it? You really don't get it do you?

Are you that simplistic? You really think I meant vote more for the same? That's the only possibility of what I was meaning?

Come on man, do better

Ok then clarify for me. How this will change through voting given our likely lack of choices in Trump and Biden?
Why would more people come out and vote when both parties deliver the same results? Corporate bailouts.

Why are these even your questions? Are you even serious on this topic and want of change or do you want to keep banging your head against the concrete wall and hope for results?

Lots of different levels of voting and times to do so. You want to offer up a fluff Trump/Biden only vote and think that's even remotely intellectually honest about what we are talking about?

Do better otherwise you are wasting all of out time

Martin - You want to change through voting and I am the one banging my head against the wall? Didn't enough democrats come out and vote Obama into power and give him both houses of Govt? So what the **** did he change? At what level do I vote to affect change? City, County? State? Where are my non democrat/republican choices? Instead of telling me to do better answer any of these questions? That so hard to do?

You gotta vote everywhere and often. Obama better than Trump. And maybe Warren would have been better than Obama. And there someone else better out there than her and so on. But they don't get in without a path and votes. And then you also need majorities in Senate and House. Gotta vote those people in. And you gotta get people to vote even more locally to get the redistricting/gerrymandering thing changed. And even more locally to make sure voting places are open and available and easy. And then you must get the young out to vote in primaries AND general. And then vote enough that mail-in ballots are available equally to everyone.

This is incremental, just not about what is on ballet today.

This isn't happening overnight or even in a few years time and you keep framing it that way. That's just reality.

Bernie or the like won't run a 3rd party cause the Rs are just too tribal. It's just reality of what we got.

And that's not banging your head against the wall? How do you propose to create a grassroots movement in a corrupt system? Just curious.

Obama had majorities - he created HAMP using TARP money that was supposed to save 4 million homeowners from possible foreclosures. Only 0.5 million loans were permanently modified - that's a 12.5% batting rate, you know why? Because he handed the money to the banks and let them do whatever they wanted - without any accountability.

What I am saying is we don't have any choices in any of these votes - they are ALL corporate owned. And I am framing it based on data. We have been trying this since the 70s. Throughout that period the polarization has grown and the middle class has gone from good to bad to worse, to all but wiped out. And we keep swelling the ranks of the working poor. At what point will you acknowledge voting for change isn't working?

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

You acknowledge the system always has been and always will be rigged without any real possibility of other and yet you keep asking when utopia is going to show up.

Have a good one and enjoy the feel of concrete against your head.

Feel free to follow up with Nalods ask, maybe he has a better way to communicate with you.

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

You acknowledge the system always has been and always will be rigged without any real possibility of other and yet you keep asking when utopia is going to show up.

Have a good one and enjoy the feel of concrete against your head.

Feel free to follow up with Nalods ask, maybe he has a better way to communicate with you.

Wrong again, I am not the one relying on impotence of incremental change to bring in Utopia.

Look at our history Martin, did slavery end because it was voted out? It was a systemic and pervasive evil just like blod-sucking neoliberalism. It ended with civil disobedience leading to civil war. The only way to to beat the system is to change the rules. Good luck voting in change.

ramtour420 wrote:You guys both bring up solid points, but the system is rigged. Too big to fail is against everything that is freedom of market economy. What will it take to change it? I don't have the answer. When everyone and their mother of the corporate world gave their monetary support to Biden( such a creep) just so that Bernie did not threaten the establishment I lost it. Citizens united is just nauseating.
Didn't Bernie lose all the states with electronic voting? And won all of the ones with mechanical machines? Something like that. And we are left with dumb and dumber to choose from. One corporate hack who went on record in the beginning of his political career complaining about the lack of lobbying interest in his persona. And another is a science denier who needed a visit from a Fox 5 host to the White House to explain the dangers of the "Chinese virus" agh, my ears. Yes, grass roots are the way, if there was a way. It's just so discouraging to see it squashed with a drop of a dime. And vote blue no matter who strategy makes me wonder. I am a die hard liberal, neo progressive. But even I wonder what to do when you got no candidate to vote for. I guess the concrete wall is always there waiting for me...

This system can only be changed from the outside. We need the revolution that Bernie keeps alluding to, but not with his leadership. Neoliberal capitalism cannot be tweaked or fixed, it needs to be dismantled. I don't know what will replace it but it needs to take power away from the bourgeoisie and restore government for the people. Some form of democratic socialism as opposed to (Bernie's social democracy) would be something I can support. Dont think we will ever get there.

meloshouldgo wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:You guys both bring up solid points, but the system is rigged. Too big to fail is against everything that is freedom of market economy. What will it take to change it? I don't have the answer. When everyone and their mother of the corporate world gave their monetary support to Biden( such a creep) just so that Bernie did not threaten the establishment I lost it. Citizens united is just nauseating.
Didn't Bernie lose all the states with electronic voting? And won all of the ones with mechanical machines? Something like that. And we are left with dumb and dumber to choose from. One corporate hack who went on record in the beginning of his political career complaining about the lack of lobbying interest in his persona. And another is a science denier who needed a visit from a Fox 5 host to the White House to explain the dangers of the "Chinese virus" agh, my ears. Yes, grass roots are the way, if there was a way. It's just so discouraging to see it squashed with a drop of a dime. And vote blue no matter who strategy makes me wonder. I am a die hard liberal, neo progressive. But even I wonder what to do when you got no candidate to vote for. I guess the concrete wall is always there waiting for me...

This system can only be changed from the outside. We need the revolution that Bernie keeps alluding to, but not with his leadership. Neoliberal capitalism cannot be tweaked or fixed, it needs to be dismantled. I don't know what will replace it but it needs to take power away from the bourgeoisie and restore government for the people. Some form of democratic socialism as opposed to (Bernie's social democracy) would be something I can support. Dont think we will ever get there.

The most prominent Russian Bolsheviks revolutionary song goes:
"We will destroyed the Old World to the ground and then...
We build our New World - who was Nothing will became Everything..."
And they did... what a wonderful world it was. I happened to live in it.
I would better eat the Neoliberal capitalism crap 10 times over rather that go live in this New World again.
And so millions others who came to this country on their own will to build their life the way they want and not by the orders of some shmaks who think they know better.
I do not give a rat as..s who will be a US president - Dem or Rep, Trump or Biden, or whoever else.
This is one of the most irrelevant things in America.
My voting method is simple - if congress controlled by Dems I vote for Rep Pres, if by Reps I vote for Dems to congress.
Less they able to do better for American people who have brain and hands to build their own destiny.