NBA teams need the 3-5 years because of $ and contract reasons but are those 3-5 years the same for an underdeveloped 19 year old versus a 21/22 year old? Steph came into league at 21 and I think everyone knew he could be a high level guard but no one saw his full potential until his 4th year. If Steph came into league at 19 what would his eval been at 21 or 22?

Now, add to that cultural changes for a foreign player (his family support system did not come to USA). Does the clock need to be extended? Feel like Frank is still literally physically figuring out his arms and shooting motion.

For me, Frank came into the league about 2 years too early. (Now, it was obviously Franks decision to join NBA at 19 and you certainly gotta earn the $5M per they are giving you being a first round lottery pick.) I don't really know what he did on his French team but I'm guessing it was off bench and just defending. That French league probably had full adults that were more physically mature than NCAA college guys but it surely was not a good Euro league? No idea how much training he was actually getting. As a PG coming into NBA, he had almost no handle. Confidence was shot and that affects jumpshot and everything. Injury second year.

I think Frank has improved every year, even if it was minuscule between first and second year, and Fiz did no favors for him last year. The jump this year is not significant but it is palpable, and he continues to improve which is key for me to long term evaluation of a player: as long as you are improving, the clock gets extended a bit. And obviously there are differences in improvement, i.e. only increasing your FT% and having everything else stay the same wouldn't extend that clock IMHO, gaining a handle, learning team defense, running a team, those are significant areas. Also, correcting obvious mistakes is a big step forward; i.e. I hate it that Dot gets back door'ed all the time, 3 years in the league and he does not have the capacity to fix this, big negative. Not fixing weakness and improving are big, telling benchmarks for me.

If Frank came into the league this year, we would all be ecstatic. Feel like he almost couldn't be a PG in league when he first came in because he couldn't really dribble or shoot or finish at rim; all have started to come along for first time this year. And now he can actually probe with PnR (and obviously there were instances where Frank ran PnR the first year but how consistent was it, etc.?) and probe defenses in general but he has no clue how to. Knicks IMHO have done good for him on the midrange possibilities, let him do what he is comfortable with and build from there. Feel like Frank still doesn't know how to get to rim and finish, but you can't even start doing that (in his circumstance) without a handle, I'm guessing most guys learn and figure that out in high school and first couple of years in college, not sure Frank had that opportunity (guessing in HS he was just physically dominant and then in pro league he didn't even try).

For me, I would start that 3 year window this year and see how it runs, his potential IMHO has not been figured out at all. Lots of areas he obviously needs big improvements on to get past solid backup on a playoff team but sky is still there and it has no cap. Is Frank going to be a superstar? No. Can he be a high level starter on a deep playoff team? TBD

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/SKPearlman/status/1215643744919334913

2018-2019 FT: 77%

2019-2020 FT: 86%

of course it would be great if he was an all star, etc., but we have to get our heads out of our butts thinking that AS is what defines success. Very unrealistic. For example, Frank's draft was supposed to be stacked but so far a lot of duds, or players yet to emerge. shows how difficult it is to build a team, and how difficult it is for a player to standout

i know a lot of folks repeat the yarn about this being a player's league but i beg to differ. the level of competition is so hard it's tough for a player to stand out in the NBA the way they did in college

Some FO have the eye to find talent (e.g. Miami). Some teams have the coaches and systems that create winning teams with realistic rosters (but which other coaches would flounder with). E.g., look at Denver: you can't convince me that a lot of coaches would be mediocre at best with that roster, and many teams wouldn't have given Joker a fighting chance to play because he doesn't fit the mold of a modern big. Toronto and Bucks are other great examples where the FO and coaches have squeezed a lot more juice out of their rosters than most organizations would

So while of course we should continue to focus on the draft because it's the best option, we should also be thinking that some organizations can win with players like Frank who contribute in some way yet continue to grow their game

jskinny35 wrote:Agree up to a point - you can't wait around 6 years unless the player really makes some gains. I get he's very young but he costs money and takes up a roster spot. Unless he pays off big time and reaches a high level, it's a poor investment overall. I think Frank has to start making bigger jumps unless he resigns at a low amount when his contract expires.

For sure. His jump after this coming summer and what he does next season will probably tell us more than the 3 previous years

There is 0 reason not to continue to develop and build Frank up. Frank reaching anything close to his potential is huge given his 2-way cappabilities. He is a consummate pro and teammate as well. Rest of this season and next season will be big for him and hopefully the Knicks by him becoming the player we hope he can become.

martin wrote:I am a big fan of Triple's theory that most guys will show you what they got within 3 years of the league, it's a good barometer but feel there are a ton of caveats and whatnot. For instance, some guys just come into the league before they physically mature; is it OK to start the clock running before a player fills out? LeBron at 19 was obviously ready, but if Stephen Curry came into league at same time and was given a couple of years, would we see same traction to mega star after a couple of seasons? Donovan Mitchell was a bench player on his college team at 19 who averaged 7 points per game, how would he fair on an NBA team at the same time?

NBA teams need the 3-5 years because of $ and contract reasons but are those 3-5 years the same for an underdeveloped 19 year old versus a 21/22 year old? Steph came into league at 21 and I think everyone knew he could be a high level guard but no one saw his full potential until his 4th year. If Steph came into league at 19 what would his eval been at 21 or 22?

Now, add to that cultural changes for a foreign player (his family support system did not come to USA). Does the clock need to be extended? Feel like Frank is still literally physically figuring out his arms and shooting motion.

For me, Frank came into the league about 2 years too early. (Now, it was obviously Franks decision to join NBA at 19 and you certainly gotta earn the $5M per they are giving you being a first round lottery pick.) I don't really know what he did on his French team but I'm guessing it was off bench and just defending. That French league probably had full adults that were more physically mature than NCAA college guys but it surely was not a good Euro league? No idea how much training he was actually getting. As a PG coming into NBA, he had almost no handle. Confidence was shot and that affects jumpshot and everything. Injury second year.

I think Frank has improved every year, even if it was minuscule between first and second year, and Fiz did no favors for him last year. The jump this year is not significant but it is palpable, and he continues to improve which is key for me to long term evaluation of a player: as long as you are improving, the clock gets extended a bit. And obviously there are differences in improvement, i.e. only increasing your FT% and having everything else stay the same wouldn't extend that clock IMHO, gaining a handle, learning team defense, running a team, those are significant areas. Also, correcting obvious mistakes is a big step forward; i.e. I hate it that Dot gets back door'ed all the time, 3 years in the league and he does not have the capacity to fix this, big negative. Not fixing weakness and improving are big, telling benchmarks for me.

If Frank came into the league this year, we would all be ecstatic. Feel like he almost couldn't be a PG in league when he first came in because he couldn't really dribble or shoot or finish at rim; all have started to come along for first time this year. And now he can actually probe with PnR (and obviously there were instances where Frank ran PnR the first year but how consistent was it, etc.?) and probe defenses in general but he has no clue how to. Knicks IMHO have done good for him on the midrange possibilities, let him do what he is comfortable with and build from there. Feel like Frank still doesn't know how to get to rim and finish, but you can't even start doing that (in his circumstance) without a handle, I'm guessing most guys learn and figure that out in high school and first couple of years in college, not sure Frank had that opportunity (guessing in HS he was just physically dominant and then in pro league he didn't even try).

For me, I would start that 3 year window this year and see how it runs, his potential IMHO has not been figured out at all. Lots of areas he obviously needs big improvements on to get past solid backup on a playoff team but sky is still there and it has no cap. Is Frank going to be a superstar? No. Can he be a high level starter on a deep playoff team? TBD

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/SKPearlman/status/1215643744919334913

2018-2019 FT: 77%

2019-2020 FT: 86%

Expectations have changed since Frank was drafted. As good as he's playing now, he's still not starting material. He's playing like a very good backup. For a lotto pick, who had pro experience coming in, Id call Frank's more aggressive play welcome. Not good enpugh yet to justify picking him at 8. Would have traded down to get him. Frank has to show his recent aggressive play is sustainable. We've been teased before. Will say this run looks like his best shot yet at really turning the corner.

Nalod wrote:Gustav, whats the trade you make? . Obviously we all take Donovan Mitchell but after that, what was the deal you do at that time? IM not being snarky as I would with the Rainman, but its just so hard to recreate a scenario.
Its not that I disagree with you,but Frank rumored to have been favored by dallas next pick. So we are looking not at Frank anymore. For that matter, Frank paired with Doncic might have been a great long term prospect for Dallas.
For us Frank Fans we mostly agree he came out too early. We also consider last year a waste for many reasons but he was injured. He is just 21, if he was a Euro Rookie this year playing this way we'd feel different? Maybe.
I dont' care about being "right", its about getting it right. We just don't know whats going to become of him.

Thank you. He wasnt as NBA ready as he should have been at 8. Which means IMO that if the lack of readiness was factored in, Frank would be drafted lower. A work in progress like Frank, you normally dont take with such a high pick. Even with his upside.

Not claiming I would have picked better. Wanted to draft Smith jr (more upside) but I understood why Phil got scared off by the knee problems, with his time in the league. Also felt that Frank was too raw for such a high pick. Lotto is where you go looking for game changers.

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Gustav, whats the trade you make? . Obviously we all take Donovan Mitchell but after that, what was the deal you do at that time? IM not being snarky as I would with the Rainman, but its just so hard to recreate a scenario.
Its not that I disagree with you,but Frank rumored to have been favored by dallas next pick. So we are looking not at Frank anymore. For that matter, Frank paired with Doncic might have been a great long term prospect for Dallas.
For us Frank Fans we mostly agree he came out too early. We also consider last year a waste for many reasons but he was injured. He is just 21, if he was a Euro Rookie this year playing this way we'd feel different? Maybe.
I dont' care about being "right", its about getting it right. We just don't know whats going to become of him.

Thank you. He wasnt as NBA ready as he should have been at 8. Which means IMO that if the lack of readiness was factored in, Frank would be drafted lower. A work in progress like Frank, you normally dont take with such a high pick. Even with his upside.

Not claiming I would have picked better. Wanted to draft Smith jr (more upside) but I understood why Phil got scared off by the knee problems, with his time in the league. Also felt that Frank was too raw for such a high pick. Lotto is where you go looking for game changers.

Teams pick on high end potential all the time for guys that come out too early, it’s like the full history of the draft and especially the lottery

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Gustav, whats the trade you make? . Obviously we all take Donovan Mitchell but after that, what was the deal you do at that time? IM not being snarky as I would with the Rainman, but its just so hard to recreate a scenario.
Its not that I disagree with you,but Frank rumored to have been favored by dallas next pick. So we are looking not at Frank anymore. For that matter, Frank paired with Doncic might have been a great long term prospect for Dallas.
For us Frank Fans we mostly agree he came out too early. We also consider last year a waste for many reasons but he was injured. He is just 21, if he was a Euro Rookie this year playing this way we'd feel different? Maybe.
I dont' care about being "right", its about getting it right. We just don't know whats going to become of him.

Thank you. He wasnt as NBA ready as he should have been at 8. Which means IMO that if the lack of readiness was factored in, Frank would be drafted lower. A work in progress like Frank, you normally dont take with such a high pick. Even with his upside.

Not claiming I would have picked better. Wanted to draft Smith jr (more upside) but I understood why Phil got scared off by the knee problems, with his time in the league. Also felt that Frank was too raw for such a high pick. Lotto is where you go looking for game changers.

Teams pick on high end potential all the time for guys that come out too early, it’s like the full history of the draft and especially the lottery

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Gustav, whats the trade you make? . Obviously we all take Donovan Mitchell but after that, what was the deal you do at that time? IM not being snarky as I would with the Rainman, but its just so hard to recreate a scenario.
Its not that I disagree with you,but Frank rumored to have been favored by dallas next pick. So we are looking not at Frank anymore. For that matter, Frank paired with Doncic might have been a great long term prospect for Dallas.
For us Frank Fans we mostly agree he came out too early. We also consider last year a waste for many reasons but he was injured. He is just 21, if he was a Euro Rookie this year playing this way we'd feel different? Maybe.
I dont' care about being "right", its about getting it right. We just don't know whats going to become of him.

Thank you. He wasnt as NBA ready as he should have been at 8. Which means IMO that if the lack of readiness was factored in, Frank would be drafted lower. A work in progress like Frank, you normally dont take with such a high pick. Even with his upside.

Not claiming I would have picked better. Wanted to draft Smith jr (more upside) but I understood why Phil got scared off by the knee problems, with his time in the league. Also felt that Frank was too raw for such a high pick. Lotto is where you go looking for game changers.

Teams pick on high end potential all the time for guys that come out too early, it’s like the full history of the draft and especially the lottery

Wish Frank could have gotten a chance to play for Mike in Westchester. His draft express scouting report said he needed to develop in the d/g league if he was going to play point. Not sure why the Knicks didn't go there but it might have been because they didn't want to send the 8th pick to the g league.

I have very mixed feelings on this. It is a constant criticism of Frank's development. Being with the Knicks (as opposed to G) one can argue you're practicing and playing against better competition, having better coaches, better nutritionists, seeing the game consistently ay an NBA level where things are faster and bigger etc. G-league gives minutes and (false?) confidence

Personally i think his trajectory has been delayed because the prior and current CS (at least up to FIzz) didn't have a clear enough idea of the player he is and what are the logical next steps in his development. Fizz for example wanted him to be a ball hog and attack -- that's not in Frank's DNA

Coaching like teaching has a certain aspect of psychology. Some people are best served by giving that person only 1 or 2 small goals to focus on, very incrementally. Others can take a lot; others are better served by long range. You need to know the audience.

In Frank's case, he may have been better served with very discrete tasks, e.g., if you get an open look here at spot X shoot; period. Or you're good on D, we want you to get steals and then go all the way to the rack for a layup or foul. I'm not even saying these should be THE things, just examples.

When I saw him especially last year he seemed confused, too many things going on in his head. Ditto for KK

My hope is Miller can rectify some of this

One reason why Frank became such a divisive issue was the lack of 1st round picks back then, and the success (or lack thereof) of the few we made. Hardaway was shipped. Too many years with just a second round pick.

We have all our 1st rounders (and then some) a top 3 pick playing like one. A second round pick who is the most efficient scorer in the league right now. Back then we had Early and KP, and that was about it.

Getting the pick right back then was a bigger deal. Why the debates got so heated at times.