Chandler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Chandler wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Chandler wrote:

franco12 wrote:so we shouldn't have traded him and let him walk for nothing. Got it.

No. We should have did what Pat Riley did with Ewing, when Ewing was frustrated with the Knicks. This isn't the first time this has happened

Convince him we have a plan and then execute that plan.

Instead, we said trust us, you'll get paid; then had a horrible plan on offense and defense (Hornacek had better defense); then said stupid things about the status of his rehab

We had a FO that was supremely insecure. And when their star player expressed frustration, they had their moment of glory by shipping his ass out; One year later it already looks among the stupidest trades in the history of sports when DSJ can't get on the courts and the Mavs picks look more and more like late first rounders

Anyone who thinks KP didn't want to be here is wrong; he wanted to be here. He just didn't want this FO!

And for those who think otherwise, they still have to get a grip on the fact that we sold low, when he was injured.

Phil -- for all of his foibles -- would have been selling high

Right, he singlehandedly made Melo into an untradeable piece of **** AFTER giving him an NFT.

Then he got all pissy over a missed meeting and started shopping the Unicorn. Phil was a **** Prez who did two things right when he was here: didn't give away any first rounders (which is like deciding to let your hair grow) and he was here when KP was picked.

Any of that was overshadowed by the rest of the putrid, in over his head, no ****ing clue FO senior moment management he provided when not sleeping.

Please let the Phil balloon go. It's not 1973 anymore. And nobody gives a **** what he did with the Albany Patroons.

I would argue Melo made Melo untradeable. Phil said he held the ball too long and didn't play D. Both the truth and not a state secret

Melo decided NOT to change his ways and became a poisonous cancer in the lockeroom infecting KP among others

Two subsequent teams have validated this, 3 if you include the bulls.

and i agree Phil made many mistakes.

Or 4 if you want to include the Hawks. Just make sure don't ask the Blazers anything.

And who the **** was he supposed to pass the ball to? KP in a suit? Noah on PED's? GLeague rejects? Rose while he's in court or AWOL? Phil the genius Prez speaking as the retired, out of the league coach. Great truth.

Who led the team in assists before Phil the genius arrived to make a million a month and lead us to 17 wins and the brilliant coaching that was Derekurt RamFisher?

Where's the poisonous cancer quotes from the locker room? You know more than Lance Thomas did? Bull****. KP loved Melo. Why? Oh that's right, because he was a poisonous cancer. The league is full of players in locker rooms every where that apparently just love poisonous cancer.

I can do this all day. I love hearing revisionist history over and over again.

Wait, we still talking Melo and Phil? Lmao

Always fascinated the hate most fans have for anyone that we take on that was highly paid (Melo). Think it stems from unreasonable expectations. Feel like most that blame Melo for everything including the crime rate in the late 80's were fans that had unrealistic expectations and were upset when reality kicked in. Never understood how self proclaimed intelligent basketball fans would expect ONE player to bring them a chip. Or how they never recognized the the level of talent/garbage that Melo was surrounded with. Not did they place any blame on the people that were being paid to do so. Including Uncle Phil and his decisive and victorious gutting of a 54 win team. Only to expertly construct the makings of a Harlem Globetrotter opponent. With the exception that the Generals ran a more relevant offense. But of course he did his best to do nothing. Which I agree was the best he could have done. But not a big task given the thing he liked to do best was sleep a lot.

As for the Rockets, guess the success once Melo left proved he was the cause, after just 10 games. of their failure. Guess it was so bad that it infected CP3 and he too had to be dealt. Or maybe it was Melo's fault that OKC with the now departed players of Westbrook and PG at the helm, did not win it all. I mean look at how good they are now with much better additions like Gallo and CP3.

Agree that blaming Melo for being a "poisonous cancer to KP" is like blaming a guy for giving his buddy medication to treat all the **** he contracted from being married to a prostitute with seventeen different types of Venereal diseases.

As said many times before, Melo was an average at best defender, he held the ball a bit too long and did favor taking a shot over setting others up. However, he was the only All Star/HOFamer, that was not a cripple, that actually wanted to come here in the last 20 years. He gave us the best shot at the conference finals in the last 20 years. He was also the best player we have had in a long long time. He proved that if a decent team was put around him (Even if they were mostly in the last years of their careers or over achievers), he can make us quite competitive.

PS. abck to thread topic. I vote to keep Morris and Payton.

Phil's big mistake was hubris. He thought he could change Melo the way he had changed other players before. He wanted him to expand his talents into more defense and team ball. some might consider it laudable that he hoped for the best with melo; others might consider it foolish. History shows this was one of Phil's first Big mistakes

Melo wanted to be feted. So he put on his free agency road show, only to find no one else wanted to give him max money. Two things here: (1) not what someone would do if they wanted to be in NY and (2) he took the money and not the opportunity to take Chicago over the top. Very telling about Melo. Phil doubles or tripes down on his mistake by giving max and NTC. Even bigger mistakes

There are many old articles and threads on this board recounting the stories/rumors that Melo did what the military would call treason or mutiny by telling teammates to forget the triangle and ignore the coaches. In football you'd get your pay docked for that; the Heat would have docked him. On top of that the Rockets, Bulls and (i forgot) the Hawks all didn't want his veteran presence. Let that sink in for a minute before people start disputing he's a cancer. Supposed HoFer (i hope not -- way too selfish) and the Bulls and Hawks think he has nothing to add. Most reasonable people would find that pretty damning. I could add Stat was more willing to share the spotlight than Melo was.

Only after he's been out of the NBA for however long does he, or more accurately his trainer, say he now embraces the change Phil asked for so long ago. If nothing else this is an admission of guilt. He was stubborn, and he paid for it. Unfortunately, we as Knicks fans suffered too. If he had embraced change way back when who knows what would have happened.

In my mind the enduring images of Melo will be (1) getting stuffed by Roy Hibbert (for god's sake) at the pivotal moment in that series and (2) going one on two-or-three (depending on how you count) to force a shot with KP absolutely wide open under the net for alley oop of dunk. As talented as he was, he was also more selfish and dumb

If you want to soft-peddle his short comings (e.g., "average at best defender" is the understatement of the year) you're entitled to. If you want to soft peddle the deleterious affect he had on this team including poisoning KP's mind against the Knicks you're entitled to that too.

But logically speaking, the fact that Phil made many mistakes, in no way negates the deleterious effect Melo and his ego had on this team

MSG bbal operations were toxic for a long time. Melo and then Phil sagas were just another 2 chapters.
Starting from Dolan himself and all this endless egomaniacal GMs/presidents and mega-stars with twisted minds were perfect match to each other.
So it is not a coincidence that the results were atrocious.
The existence of large population of NY fans who like this kind of "action" did not help eather.
Everybody want to win but few know what it takes. And it takes personal sacrifices as the main asset to get it done.
It takes integrity, hard work, loyalty, and heart. For me only those who posses this values are true stars.
The rest are skilled clowns.

Chandler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Chandler wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Chandler wrote:

franco12 wrote:so we shouldn't have traded him and let him walk for nothing. Got it.

No. We should have did what Pat Riley did with Ewing, when Ewing was frustrated with the Knicks. This isn't the first time this has happened

Convince him we have a plan and then execute that plan.

Instead, we said trust us, you'll get paid; then had a horrible plan on offense and defense (Hornacek had better defense); then said stupid things about the status of his rehab

We had a FO that was supremely insecure. And when their star player expressed frustration, they had their moment of glory by shipping his ass out; One year later it already looks among the stupidest trades in the history of sports when DSJ can't get on the courts and the Mavs picks look more and more like late first rounders

Anyone who thinks KP didn't want to be here is wrong; he wanted to be here. He just didn't want this FO!

And for those who think otherwise, they still have to get a grip on the fact that we sold low, when he was injured.

Phil -- for all of his foibles -- would have been selling high

Right, he singlehandedly made Melo into an untradeable piece of **** AFTER giving him an NFT.

Then he got all pissy over a missed meeting and started shopping the Unicorn. Phil was a **** Prez who did two things right when he was here: didn't give away any first rounders (which is like deciding to let your hair grow) and he was here when KP was picked.

Any of that was overshadowed by the rest of the putrid, in over his head, no ****ing clue FO senior moment management he provided when not sleeping.

Please let the Phil balloon go. It's not 1973 anymore. And nobody gives a **** what he did with the Albany Patroons.

I would argue Melo made Melo untradeable. Phil said he held the ball too long and didn't play D. Both the truth and not a state secret

Melo decided NOT to change his ways and became a poisonous cancer in the lockeroom infecting KP among others

Two subsequent teams have validated this, 3 if you include the bulls.

and i agree Phil made many mistakes.

Or 4 if you want to include the Hawks. Just make sure don't ask the Blazers anything.

And who the **** was he supposed to pass the ball to? KP in a suit? Noah on PED's? GLeague rejects? Rose while he's in court or AWOL? Phil the genius Prez speaking as the retired, out of the league coach. Great truth.

Who led the team in assists before Phil the genius arrived to make a million a month and lead us to 17 wins and the brilliant coaching that was Derekurt RamFisher?

Where's the poisonous cancer quotes from the locker room? You know more than Lance Thomas did? Bull****. KP loved Melo. Why? Oh that's right, because he was a poisonous cancer. The league is full of players in locker rooms every where that apparently just love poisonous cancer.

I can do this all day. I love hearing revisionist history over and over again.

Wait, we still talking Melo and Phil? Lmao

Always fascinated the hate most fans have for anyone that we take on that was highly paid (Melo). Think it stems from unreasonable expectations. Feel like most that blame Melo for everything including the crime rate in the late 80's were fans that had unrealistic expectations and were upset when reality kicked in. Never understood how self proclaimed intelligent basketball fans would expect ONE player to bring them a chip. Or how they never recognized the the level of talent/garbage that Melo was surrounded with. Not did they place any blame on the people that were being paid to do so. Including Uncle Phil and his decisive and victorious gutting of a 54 win team. Only to expertly construct the makings of a Harlem Globetrotter opponent. With the exception that the Generals ran a more relevant offense. But of course he did his best to do nothing. Which I agree was the best he could have done. But not a big task given the thing he liked to do best was sleep a lot.

As for the Rockets, guess the success once Melo left proved he was the cause, after just 10 games. of their failure. Guess it was so bad that it infected CP3 and he too had to be dealt. Or maybe it was Melo's fault that OKC with the now departed players of Westbrook and PG at the helm, did not win it all. I mean look at how good they are now with much better additions like Gallo and CP3.

Agree that blaming Melo for being a "poisonous cancer to KP" is like blaming a guy for giving his buddy medication to treat all the **** he contracted from being married to a prostitute with seventeen different types of Venereal diseases.

As said many times before, Melo was an average at best defender, he held the ball a bit too long and did favor taking a shot over setting others up. However, he was the only All Star/HOFamer, that was not a cripple, that actually wanted to come here in the last 20 years. He gave us the best shot at the conference finals in the last 20 years. He was also the best player we have had in a long long time. He proved that if a decent team was put around him (Even if they were mostly in the last years of their careers or over achievers), he can make us quite competitive.

PS. abck to thread topic. I vote to keep Morris and Payton.

Phil's big mistake was hubris. He thought he could change Melo the way he had changed other players before. He wanted him to expand his talents into more defense and team ball. some might consider it laudable that he hoped for the best with melo; others might consider it foolish. History shows this was one of Phil's first Big mistakes

Melo wanted to be feted. So he put on his free agency road show, only to find no one else wanted to give him max money. Two things here: (1) not what someone would do if they wanted to be in NY and (2) he took the money and not the opportunity to take Chicago over the top. Very telling about Melo. Phil doubles or tripes down on his mistake by giving max and NTC. Even bigger mistakes

There are many old articles and threads on this board recounting the stories/rumors that Melo did what the military would call treason or mutiny by telling teammates to forget the triangle and ignore the coaches. In football you'd get your pay docked for that; the Heat would have docked him. On top of that the Rockets, Bulls and (i forgot) the Hawks all didn't want his veteran presence. Let that sink in for a minute before people start disputing he's a cancer. Supposed HoFer (i hope not -- way too selfish) and the Bulls and Hawks think he has nothing to add. Most reasonable people would find that pretty damning. I could add Stat was more willing to share the spotlight than Melo was.

Only after he's been out of the NBA for however long does he, or more accurately his trainer, say he now embraces the change Phil asked for so long ago. If nothing else this is an admission of guilt. He was stubborn, and he paid for it. Unfortunately, we as Knicks fans suffered too. If he had embraced change way back when who knows what would have happened.

In my mind the enduring images of Melo will be (1) getting stuffed by Roy Hibbert (for god's sake) at the pivotal moment in that series and (2) going one on two-or-three (depending on how you count) to force a shot with KP absolutely wide open under the net for alley oop of dunk. As talented as he was, he was also more selfish and dumb

If you want to soft-peddle his short comings (e.g., "average at best defender" is the understatement of the year) you're entitled to. If you want to soft peddle the deleterious affect he had on this team including poisoning KP's mind against the Knicks you're entitled to that too.

But logically speaking, the fact that Phil made many mistakes, in no way negates the deleterious effect Melo and his ego had on this team

There is no LOGIC in a fan claiming he knows the deleterious effect someone has in a situation they have NO knowledge of.

Can't remember anyone saying Melo was the best all around player in NBA history. If it makes you feel better to say he was the worst defender of all time. you're entitled to it. To me its just what people like to say when they don't like a great player and want to bring them down. Melo is going to be a Hall of Famer. Melo legacy will be to have been one of the GREATEST scores of ALL TIME. For those that don't like hearing that then I guess the "yeah but he didn't play great defense" Or the "he did not win a chip" soothes that. Point is when one ignores someones great accomplishments and try to splatter them with short comings, that's called being a hater. Heard same thing of Ewing, Barkley, Malone, etc. Fact is they were all great players. No matter how some hater tries to carve them down. But you're entitled to it. Think the Hibbert comment (Which btw he had a good excuse for. You see its hard to dunk over one of the best shot blockers in the league when you have been carrying 10 guys on your shoulders for a whole season and 6 games into a hard fought playoff series) and the treason comment (Which I love that you take fan forum posts and articles from click bating net bloggers who never played the sport or stepped inside a locker room over just about every player that played with Melo or FO guy that managed him and claimed he was a true professional) goes to show there are some deep scars emanating from something else affecting your opinion. But your entitled to it.

But lets Melo rehash yet again. Curious, do you blame Melo for Dolan being stupid enough to offer such a package and not wait until the off season to get him? Do you blame Melo for what the FO put around him year after year and then when they had success brought in Phil do scrap the team after just one injury riddled disappointing season? Whcih led to what exactly? Do you blame Melo for doing what anyone would do and try to get the most money/years in a contract? Do you blame Melo that Uncle Phil was dumb enough to give the guy you claim was a cancer a max deal? Do you really feel Chicago with only Butler was a guaranteed chip team? You make it seem like its a bad thing to be loyal to NY over a shot at a 10% chance at winning a chip. Or are you saying the Bulls were the 2015 Warriors and had enough to beat Kyrie and LBJ?

But lets agree to disagree. At least we both AGREE that Melo is a future HALL OF FAMER, one of the BEST SCORERS OF ALL TIME, the only ALL STAR that actually wanted to play here and had true love for the city. And the only player in a long time that made us relative and competitive. Good takeaway. Now lets root for the Knicks.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Chandler wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Chandler wrote:

franco12 wrote:so we shouldn't have traded him and let him walk for nothing. Got it.

No. We should have did what Pat Riley did with Ewing, when Ewing was frustrated with the Knicks. This isn't the first time this has happened

Convince him we have a plan and then execute that plan.

Instead, we said trust us, you'll get paid; then had a horrible plan on offense and defense (Hornacek had better defense); then said stupid things about the status of his rehab

We had a FO that was supremely insecure. And when their star player expressed frustration, they had their moment of glory by shipping his ass out; One year later it already looks among the stupidest trades in the history of sports when DSJ can't get on the courts and the Mavs picks look more and more like late first rounders

Anyone who thinks KP didn't want to be here is wrong; he wanted to be here. He just didn't want this FO!

And for those who think otherwise, they still have to get a grip on the fact that we sold low, when he was injured.

Phil -- for all of his foibles -- would have been selling high

Right, he singlehandedly made Melo into an untradeable piece of **** AFTER giving him an NFT.

Then he got all pissy over a missed meeting and started shopping the Unicorn. Phil was a **** Prez who did two things right when he was here: didn't give away any first rounders (which is like deciding to let your hair grow) and he was here when KP was picked.

Any of that was overshadowed by the rest of the putrid, in over his head, no ****ing clue FO senior moment management he provided when not sleeping.

Please let the Phil balloon go. It's not 1973 anymore. And nobody gives a **** what he did with the Albany Patroons.

I would argue Melo made Melo untradeable. Phil said he held the ball too long and didn't play D. Both the truth and not a state secret

Melo decided NOT to change his ways and became a poisonous cancer in the lockeroom infecting KP among others

Two subsequent teams have validated this, 3 if you include the bulls.

and i agree Phil made many mistakes.

Or 4 if you want to include the Hawks. Just make sure don't ask the Blazers anything.

And who the **** was he supposed to pass the ball to? KP in a suit? Noah on PED's? GLeague rejects? Rose while he's in court or AWOL? Phil the genius Prez speaking as the retired, out of the league coach. Great truth.

Who led the team in assists before Phil the genius arrived to make a million a month and lead us to 17 wins and the brilliant coaching that was Derekurt RamFisher?

Where's the poisonous cancer quotes from the locker room? You know more than Lance Thomas did? Bull****. KP loved Melo. Why? Oh that's right, because he was a poisonous cancer. The league is full of players in locker rooms every where that apparently just love poisonous cancer.

I can do this all day. I love hearing revisionist history over and over again.

Wait, we still talking Melo and Phil? Lmao

Always fascinated the hate most fans have for anyone that we take on that was highly paid (Melo). Think it stems from unreasonable expectations. Feel like most that blame Melo for everything including the crime rate in the late 80's were fans that had unrealistic expectations and were upset when reality kicked in. Never understood how self proclaimed intelligent basketball fans would expect ONE player to bring them a chip. Or how they never recognized the the level of talent/garbage that Melo was surrounded with. Not did they place any blame on the people that were being paid to do so. Including Uncle Phil and his decisive and victorious gutting of a 54 win team. Only to expertly construct the makings of a Harlem Globetrotter opponent. With the exception that the Generals ran a more relevant offense. But of course he did his best to do nothing. Which I agree was the best he could have done. But not a big task given the thing he liked to do best was sleep a lot.

As for the Rockets, guess the success once Melo left proved he was the cause, after just 10 games. of their failure. Guess it was so bad that it infected CP3 and he too had to be dealt. Or maybe it was Melo's fault that OKC with the now departed players of Westbrook and PG at the helm, did not win it all. I mean look at how good they are now with much better additions like Gallo and CP3.

Agree that blaming Melo for being a "poisonous cancer to KP" is like blaming a guy for giving his buddy medication to treat all the **** he contracted from being married to a prostitute with seventeen different types of Venereal diseases.

As said many times before, Melo was an average at best defender, he held the ball a bit too long and did favor taking a shot over setting others up. However, he was the only All Star/HOFamer, that was not a cripple, that actually wanted to come here in the last 20 years. He gave us the best shot at the conference finals in the last 20 years. He was also the best player we have had in a long long time. He proved that if a decent team was put around him (Even if they were mostly in the last years of their careers or over achievers), he can make us quite competitive.

PS. abck to thread topic. I vote to keep Morris and Payton.

Phil's big mistake was hubris. He thought he could change Melo the way he had changed other players before. He wanted him to expand his talents into more defense and team ball. some might consider it laudable that he hoped for the best with melo; others might consider it foolish. History shows this was one of Phil's first Big mistakes

Melo wanted to be feted. So he put on his free agency road show, only to find no one else wanted to give him max money. Two things here: (1) not what someone would do if they wanted to be in NY and (2) he took the money and not the opportunity to take Chicago over the top. Very telling about Melo. Phil doubles or tripes down on his mistake by giving max and NTC. Even bigger mistakes

There are many old articles and threads on this board recounting the stories/rumors that Melo did what the military would call treason or mutiny by telling teammates to forget the triangle and ignore the coaches. In football you'd get your pay docked for that; the Heat would have docked him. On top of that the Rockets, Bulls and (i forgot) the Hawks all didn't want his veteran presence. Let that sink in for a minute before people start disputing he's a cancer. Supposed HoFer (i hope not -- way too selfish) and the Bulls and Hawks think he has nothing to add. Most reasonable people would find that pretty damning. I could add Stat was more willing to share the spotlight than Melo was.

Only after he's been out of the NBA for however long does he, or more accurately his trainer, say he now embraces the change Phil asked for so long ago. If nothing else this is an admission of guilt. He was stubborn, and he paid for it. Unfortunately, we as Knicks fans suffered too. If he had embraced change way back when who knows what would have happened.

In my mind the enduring images of Melo will be (1) getting stuffed by Roy Hibbert (for god's sake) at the pivotal moment in that series and (2) going one on two-or-three (depending on how you count) to force a shot with KP absolutely wide open under the net for alley oop of dunk. As talented as he was, he was also more selfish and dumb

If you want to soft-peddle his short comings (e.g., "average at best defender" is the understatement of the year) you're entitled to. If you want to soft peddle the deleterious affect he had on this team including poisoning KP's mind against the Knicks you're entitled to that too.

But logically speaking, the fact that Phil made many mistakes, in no way negates the deleterious effect Melo and his ego had on this team

There is no LOGIC in a fan claiming he knows the deleterious effect someone has in a situation they have NO knowledge of.

Can't remember anyone saying Melo was the best all around player in NBA history. If it makes you feel better to say he was the worst defender of all time. you're entitled to it. To me its just what people like to say when they don't like a great player and want to bring them down. Melo is going to be a Hall of Famer. Melo legacy will be to have been one of the GREATEST scores of ALL TIME. For those that don't like hearing that then I guess the "yeah but he didn't play great defense" Or the "he did not win a chip" soothes that. Point is when one ignores someones great accomplishments and try to splatter them with short comings, that's called being a hater. Heard same thing of Ewing, Barkley, Malone, etc. Fact is they were all great players. No matter how some hater tries to carve them down. But you're entitled to it. Think the Hibbert comment (Which btw he had a good excuse for. You see its hard to dunk over one of the best shot blockers in the league when you have been carrying 10 guys on your shoulders for a whole season and 6 games into a hard fought playoff series) and the treason comment (Which I love that you take fan forum posts and articles from click bating net bloggers who never played the sport or stepped inside a locker room over just about every player that played with Melo or FO guy that managed him and claimed he was a true professional) goes to show there are some deep scars emanating from something else affecting your opinion. But your entitled to it.

But lets Melo rehash yet again. Curious, do you blame Melo for Dolan being stupid enough to offer such a package and not wait until the off season to get him? Do you blame Melo for what the FO put around him year after year and then when they had success brought in Phil do scrap the team after just one injury riddled disappointing season? Whcih led to what exactly? Do you blame Melo for doing what anyone would do and try to get the most money/years in a contract? Do you blame Melo that Uncle Phil was dumb enough to give the guy you claim was a cancer a max deal? Do you really feel Chicago with only Butler was a guaranteed chip team? You make it seem like its a bad thing to be loyal to NY over a shot at a 10% chance at winning a chip. Or are you saying the Bulls were the 2015 Warriors and had enough to beat Kyrie and LBJ?

But lets agree to disagree. At least we both AGREE that Melo is a future HALL OF FAMER, one of the BEST SCORERS OF ALL TIME, the only ALL STAR that actually wanted to play here and had true love for the city. And the only player in a long time that made us relative and competitive. Good takeaway. Now lets root for the Knicks.

But by your logic, there is no logic in a fan claiming the opposite either -- which you seem to do. Do you KNOW his effects to be other than deleterious any better than any of us know the opposite? Or are you like the rest of human society who can only make informed judgments based on whatever evidence is put before him -- even if potentially suspect media reports. Oddly enough most people seem quite comfortable about relying on such evidence to declare Phil Jackson a ding dong -- even though he coached or played on more championship teams than most.

Look I'll avoid the epistemology

I agree he was a volume scorer -- albeit inefficient at the worst times. To say he had excuse for Hibbert is itself an excuse and a lame one; He got stuffed by a guy out of the league a few years later who simply raised his arms straight up in the air. COuld he have run a floater? Should he have had the hubris to think he can dunk on who you call "one of the best shot blockers"? Maybe he should have passed (you know to one of the other guys wearing the same color jersey)?

the fact that Dolan or the FO might be dumb too (which I agree with), does nothing to negate Melo was stubborn and selfish. You say he was carrying his teammates; I think some of them were actually good and Melo was a ball hog. Being a ball hog often leads to more points (but not success in my book)

And just a fact check, when Melo was considering Bulls they still had Rose and Noah and were in their prime. He wasn't loyal to NY. If he were, he knew he'd get max money from us and he would have showed he loved NY by signing. His insecure dumb self was trying to do his version of The Decision. Unfortunately for him, no one stroked his ego and the best offer was like 17 million. So he decided to shun Chicago and the chance to win (though Tom T would have demanded defense) and to soak the Knicks for every penny.

I hope he doesn't get into the Hall. The Hall should be reserved for people with higher ideals than putting up a lot of points

Did you enjoy watching yet another blowout?

Reading comments insulting Kristaps, as if he should have been trapped by this dead organization that needs to overpay jobbers just to have anyone sign, reminds me of why Dolan gets away with what he gets away with.

Kristaps Porzingis is the hero in the story, James Dolan is the idiot villain. The Unicorn is busy destroying a top 10 team on the road, while posters here celebrate a win over the worst team in the NBA like it's aplayoff game.

I saw a bit of the Sixers Mavs highlights. Man, it looked like Porzingis just outplayed everyone on the floor. Porzingis is not a stats guy. His value goes way beyond stats. What he does for a team is rare and hard to find. He stretches the entire defense or makes them pay if they don't get their big guys out to defend him. Then he can take them off the dribble if they go defend him. This year he has began to rebound the ball like he's a beast and his rim protection was always elite. You have very few players in the league who are as valuable as KP. His biggest drawback was rebounding and now he's doing that. He has become a very well rounded player. He may not be a superstar who can carry your franchise, but a legit reliable all-star.

The Mavs went from a lottery team without KP and having DSJ, to a contender in the West. Some of it was Luka's improvement. A lot of it was adding KP instead of DSJ. DSJ was not a good fit, or even going to be in the rotation. KP is their most valuable piece aside from Luka. You see now in the 3 games that Luka is out, KP is able to step up.

The Knicks made a huge blunder. Needed to listen to Phil. If they were doubts on Porzingis, trade him when we could have had 2 lottery picks and a starter. At that time when Phil was shopping him, teams were willing to give that up. Teams will not give up the same for a player rehabbing an ACL injury with a max contract extension needing to be signed WHILE he is still on rehab. That is when your value is at it's lowest. One of the dumbest moves in Knicks history was trading Porzingis at that time. If NY wanted to trade him, should have done it in June 2017.

Who really thinks Porzingis would have refused to sign a 5 year max extension with the Knicks? Who here thinks Porzingis would have risked 100+ million dollars and taken the qualifying offer? He would have taken a 4 year max offer and Knicks match, or just signed a 5 year max deal with the Knicks. Then asked for a trade again at some point in the future. You can then show that Porzingis is still an all-star talent, healthy, and a great #2 for a contender. Then you get equal value.

Dumbo show we have going on with Dolan, Mills and Perry.

Phil sucked at many things, but at least Phil got a few things right. 1) He knew that Porzingis would not last in NYs culture, so he wanted to trade him when value was at peak. That return would have really helped NY right now. 2) He was building through the draft. 3) He picked good coaches in Kerr, Horny who would develop players the right way.

nyknickzingis wrote:Mills and Perry thought they would get Kyrie or Durant, or both. They were confident that with capspace and all that, they would be able to make a splash to compensate losing an all-star big for.

I saw a bit of the Sixers Mavs highlights. Man, it looked like Porzingis just outplayed everyone on the floor. Porzingis is not a stats guy. His value goes way beyond stats. What he does for a team is rare and hard to find. He stretches the entire defense or makes them pay if they don't get their big guys out to defend him. Then he can take them off the dribble if they go defend him. This year he has began to rebound the ball like he's a beast and his rim protection was always elite. You have very few players in the league who are as valuable as KP. His biggest drawback was rebounding and now he's doing that. He has become a very well rounded player. He may not be a superstar who can carry your franchise, but a legit reliable all-star.

The Mavs went from a lottery team without KP and having DSJ, to a contender in the West. Some of it was Luka's improvement. A lot of it was adding KP instead of DSJ. DSJ was not a good fit, or even going to be in the rotation. KP is their most valuable piece aside from Luka. You see now in the 3 games that Luka is out, KP is able to step up.

The Knicks made a huge blunder. Needed to listen to Phil. If they were doubts on Porzingis, trade him when we could have had 2 lottery picks and a starter. At that time when Phil was shopping him, teams were willing to give that up. Teams will not give up the same for a player rehabbing an ACL injury with a max contract extension needing to be signed WHILE he is still on rehab. That is when your value is at it's lowest. One of the dumbest moves in Knicks history was trading Porzingis at that time. If NY wanted to trade him, should have done it in June 2017.

Who really thinks Porzingis would have refused to sign a 5 year max extension with the Knicks? Who here thinks Porzingis would have risked 100+ million dollars and taken the qualifying offer? He would have taken a 4 year max offer and Knicks match, or just signed a 5 year max deal with the Knicks. Then asked for a trade again at some point in the future. You can then show that Porzingis is still an all-star talent, healthy, and a great #2 for a contender. Then you get equal value.

Dumbo show we have going on with Dolan, Mills and Perry.

Phil sucked at many things, but at least Phil got a few things right. 1) He knew that Porzingis would not last in NYs culture, so he wanted to trade him when value was at peak. That return would have really helped NY right now. 2) He was building through the draft. 3) He picked good coaches in Kerr, Horny who would develop players the right way.

That is truth at the moment. The talent was rarely in dispute. His Fragile potential lies dormant. That is not apparent at the moment. I think if KP did not break knicks resign him. But he did.
Blame? The timeline. tomorrow if KP breaks again the whole thing changes again. Also it is early and the fatigue we once saw has not occurred.
IT was never his talent that was questioned or his desire. We made our commitment to him when we fired Phil. Then he broke after a start like we are seeing.
The whole thing is regrettable.
Are we shunned because of Dolan or Mills?

nyknickzingis wrote:Porzingis the flaws or risks with him, that is why you trade him.
The problem is the vision and timing.
Phil saw the warning signs and wanted to trade him. He was going to get 2 lotto picks rookies and a young starter. They fire him for Mills.
What does Mill do? Wait 2 years, almost, do the same trade only get 0 starters, 0 lottery picks. Dump a bad contract he himself gave out, for capspace to overpay the likes of Randle.

I do not get it - is winning not enough? When Porzingis got hurt, the Knicks were a competitive team. Every year Porzingis had been on the Knicks, at least they were a) competitive and b) exciting to watch because of his talent. Even after trading Melo for Kanter, they begun the season as a playoff level team and were not going to make it but were competitive (I think what like 21-26 going into the game he blew his ACL?). All without playing with a talentend guard. I was saying every season Porzingis was a NY Knick, get him an all-star guard will change the team. Rose was the best guy they ever got but at that point in his career he was a backup PG on a good team.

You keep Porzingis you add someone like Kemba even, you will make the playoffs this year in a weak east with a good head coach and system. The plan sucked - the timing sucked. Fans can excuse it all they want or blame KP. It won't change the fact that we traded away the best talent we had since Ewing for peanuts. And two things are not happening guys, no matter how many ways you slice it. KP is not passing up a 5 year max contract. Porzingis is not going to show up to the season without effort and pride to showcase his talents and improve. Flaws and all, you either trade him when Phil wanted to. Or you trade him when he re-establishes his value by end of season 2019-2020.

Lets just ask, say Cuban wants to flip Porzingis at season's end? Do you think he will get DSJ and 2 low draft picks? He would get much more. It is all about timing.

Phil is fired and Melo made gone. We gave the team to KP. WE could not extend him until that summer.
Yes, I agree and the season starts really good. BY January KP is “Tired” and he is clearly not strong enough to carry the team. Hardaway first year and has the fracture thing. Again, this is KP’s team and the owner fired Phil so we are committed. Then he broke. KP swears he back in 10 months. Knicks posture if KP waits there is 10mil more in cap space. Season starts, he is a dick, and the confrontation begins. Things we don’t know about. We did not force hm back. EVen Dolan said he might not play. Then it blows up.
I’m in the camp of if you want to trade him, trade him. If not, hand him the keys. We did. Fans including me don’t know everything and I’m not pretending to. “Regrettable” because it was a less than favorable outcome. Blame? I just don’t know. If its on Mills, OK. I file it as on both camps. I was not down with Phil trading him at the time. I was not happy we traded him. I’m not in the “Good riddance” camp. But I’m not casting blame thinking it changes anything. If they fire mills, so be it. I really don’t give a ****. I’m long past it. I just want what’s best and won’t pretend I know what that is. I just know reaction is never good. thats why I push against.

All that cap space could bring us some big names in 2021. Look at the list. If Dolan brings in a new team president who is more than just a name. Mitch/Barrett keep improving. We would have a good shot of attracting talent. Otherwise I see us getting hosed again. Morris is worth extending. Believe FAs would like having him as a teammate. Dont want the cupboard to be bare when trying to sign big FAs. Hope we can afford him.

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Mills stays beyond this season, we might end up in the same situation as we were in during the last big FA push. All dressed up with nowhere to go. Would you feel confident knowing you are going to a team where the same exec has been part of two decades of losing? We focus on the roster, the owner, when discussing free agency, but the front office is part of FAs calculus as well.

All that cap space could bring us some big names in 2021. Look at the list. If Dolan brings in a new team president who is more than just a name. Mitch/Barrett keep improving. We would have a good shot of attracting talent. Otherwise I see us getting hosed again. Morris is worth extending. Believe FAs would like having him as a teammate. Don't want the cupboard to be bare when trying to sign big FAs. Hope we can afford him.

Just stop.

Mills or no Mills, the Knicks are a big ship that doesn't go from loser to winner because Christ walks through the door.

Truth is that the FO did a decent job of recovering from disappointment this summer. They can't and no one ever will control the whims and whimsy of the NBA FA contest. Its not easy to build, sustain, or to perpetuate winning cultures in the NBA.

This clearing cap space meme that never ends and the equally ridiculous tank meme are wholly a waste of time and energy.

*This* is what the beginning stages of a rebuild look like. Some assets shine, others fail.

Prune the roster and in doing so harden the roster. We will get our draft picks regardless. Continuous improvement is the goal.

I'll stop when 20 years as an exec with zero accountability comes to an end. Rebuilding means progress. There are some bright spots to be sure, not enough progress to keep Mills off the hot seat. Last time we saw progress Mills was on his "sabbatical" after the lawsuit.

I would think you would rather give up Knox and Frank to get rid of a Courtney Lee or Noah’s contract. Rebuilding means smart moves that accumulate assets.

Like taking on contracts this summer with picks attached. Not rushing through every move you make without plan.

Christ if we had KP this summer we could have likely moved our contracts to a team like Memphis, Lee Knox and Frank and just handed out max deals to Kemba and Butler snd had RJ, Mitch, KP and Trier to continue the youth movement.

Makes you sick watching them go on the road vs the bucks and Sixers and bring it home.

you can actually fire Mills; and it may give dolan the impetus

I agree with the comment that it's hard to build and sustain a winning culture. But it's impossible to do when your team president is completely clueless at every turn

Playing in and for NYC is still our strongest selling point; right now that is mitigated because any top FA worth a damn prefers winning and knows it's all the more difficult here because Mills is a clown

My hope is that he is fired and forbidden from stepping on the premises. Having him in the organization is and has been a disaster