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That was Fiba Frank
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TPercy
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11/7/2019  11:45 AM
To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me
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NYKBocker
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11/7/2019  11:58 AM
TPercy wrote:To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me

I agree. I love Frank but he needs to fix this.

Vmart
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11/7/2019  12:18 PM
Everyone wants Frank to drive and kick attack the rim and finish. I get that I’m sure even Frank gets that but when you’re trying to build something not just as a player but also in relationship with a coach who has given him a short rope to begin with a player is just gonna try to make his coach happy and play it safe so he can be included. We all know by now that Frank is only playing now because of unforeseen events. Would Frank have been included in anything if the injury and an unfortunate event didn’t happen probably not. Majority of you guys would be say Frank can’t play Fizdale knows and sees him practice and so on. Frank can play and what bothers me more is our Coach didn’t see this.
newyorknewyork
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11/7/2019  12:23 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
arkrud wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Frank looked better, no doubt about that. Some of the shots he took, he wouldnt have in the past because he had just missed a shot seconds earlier. Kept firing away. In Frsnk's case, thats a good thing.

What I watched last night was a good backup, if Frank can sustain this level of performance. To be a full time starter, Id want to see him get to the line more, be able to go on runs when the rest of the team is putting up bricks, be able to pick up the slack. Dont believe Frank is there right now.

You are describing elite scoring PG.
Not every NBA team can get that.
Not rebuilding for sure as this will be a waste of his prime and waste of team money.
Once in blue moon this kind of PG can be a part of youth movement when came from the draft.
We did not draft PG in many years. So this is not about the Knicks.
Frank can start a couple of years until we will be good enough to trade for this kind of PG or better get him as FA.
Can be our final peace for contention if we will stick with the plan.

Totally reject the notion that only an elite PG can do this. Doesnt have to lead the team in scoring, but has to be a threat at the rim in crunch time. Be able to get to the line, because thats often where games are won. Frank ia not at the point where he can be that guy, nevermind consistently.

Please name a PG that is a threat at the rim in crunch time that is not an elite PG and can get to the line at will.

With the exception of your "at will" comment, just on this team over the last 3-4 years. Id say almost every PG who has come through here, with the exception of Frank and Baker, has shown the ability to get to the line in crunch time.

Most of them arent here anymore because they couldnt do it consistently, thats why they didnt make it as a long term starter. Lack of defense made it hard to keep some of them as a backup.

Frank got to the line for the first time last night. Can go literally weeks without taking a FT. You guys make it sound like its no big thing. Its a very big thing, when you're talking about a lead PG you want to contend with down the road.

My apologies to the "at will" comment. I thought that was implied. if that is the case then Frank is a threat at the rim like any other player. Now, can you quantify how much? Probably not but you can make your own assumptions. If you have the ball in your hand then you are a threat to take it to the rim. Question. When Frank has the ball...does the defender sag off? I have not seen anybody sag off Frank yet. That means Frank is a threat and the defense is still playing 5 on 5 and not the 4 on 5 people like to claim.

Frank got to the line for the first time last night. yes. he needs to do better. There are a lot of things he needs to get better at. To me this is all on the coach. Frank has shown that he can drive to the basket. Fizdale needs to take the ball away from Morris and Randle and trust that RJ and Frank can attack the basket.

Exactly, its easy to pick on Frank due to his past transgressions. But FIBA Frank showed he can close as have Under18 tourny Frank. He has yet to be trusted and groomed.

NBA Frank has to do a much better job of getting to the rim, or he isnt starter material. Cant attribute so few trips to the rim to just players sagging off him, doesnt have the ability to consistently beat guys off the dribble yet. Looks better this season, still looks like a backup, but a good one, if he can keep this up.

Offensively believe there is a lot more daylight between Frank and an elite scoring PG than is being suggested. Dont believe Frank should be penciled in as the future PG just yet. One good game isnt enough for me. Would have to see him play like this all season and get to the line regularly, like the average starting PG.

I agree with you,(though he has had 3 good games overall, and 1 stinker one during this stretch).

The part I don't fully agree is during crunch time. The offense is set up to get the ball to Randle or Morris and count on them as our 2 best scorers. This has lead to scoring droughts in every game this season, sand the one where Portis caught fire. Or when Morris caught fire vs Bos. I would prefer for Fiz to design having Frank and Barrett control the rock, designs to give them space to work with, designs with clear intentions to attack the paint, feed shooters, or find Randle, or take it themselves if its there. Morris has been an ELITE spot up catch and shoot player this season. Randle is better recieving passes to finish around the basket then creating his own. Design to promote guard play and enhance it.

The average starting G gets such design.

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NYKBocker
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11/7/2019  12:32 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
arkrud wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Frank looked better, no doubt about that. Some of the shots he took, he wouldnt have in the past because he had just missed a shot seconds earlier. Kept firing away. In Frsnk's case, thats a good thing.

What I watched last night was a good backup, if Frank can sustain this level of performance. To be a full time starter, Id want to see him get to the line more, be able to go on runs when the rest of the team is putting up bricks, be able to pick up the slack. Dont believe Frank is there right now.

You are describing elite scoring PG.
Not every NBA team can get that.
Not rebuilding for sure as this will be a waste of his prime and waste of team money.
Once in blue moon this kind of PG can be a part of youth movement when came from the draft.
We did not draft PG in many years. So this is not about the Knicks.
Frank can start a couple of years until we will be good enough to trade for this kind of PG or better get him as FA.
Can be our final peace for contention if we will stick with the plan.

Totally reject the notion that only an elite PG can do this. Doesnt have to lead the team in scoring, but has to be a threat at the rim in crunch time. Be able to get to the line, because thats often where games are won. Frank ia not at the point where he can be that guy, nevermind consistently.

Please name a PG that is a threat at the rim in crunch time that is not an elite PG and can get to the line at will.

With the exception of your "at will" comment, just on this team over the last 3-4 years. Id say almost every PG who has come through here, with the exception of Frank and Baker, has shown the ability to get to the line in crunch time.

Most of them arent here anymore because they couldnt do it consistently, thats why they didnt make it as a long term starter. Lack of defense made it hard to keep some of them as a backup.

Frank got to the line for the first time last night. Can go literally weeks without taking a FT. You guys make it sound like its no big thing. Its a very big thing, when you're talking about a lead PG you want to contend with down the road.

My apologies to the "at will" comment. I thought that was implied. if that is the case then Frank is a threat at the rim like any other player. Now, can you quantify how much? Probably not but you can make your own assumptions. If you have the ball in your hand then you are a threat to take it to the rim. Question. When Frank has the ball...does the defender sag off? I have not seen anybody sag off Frank yet. That means Frank is a threat and the defense is still playing 5 on 5 and not the 4 on 5 people like to claim.

Frank got to the line for the first time last night. yes. he needs to do better. There are a lot of things he needs to get better at. To me this is all on the coach. Frank has shown that he can drive to the basket. Fizdale needs to take the ball away from Morris and Randle and trust that RJ and Frank can attack the basket.

Exactly, its easy to pick on Frank due to his past transgressions. But FIBA Frank showed he can close as have Under18 tourny Frank. He has yet to be trusted and groomed.

NBA Frank has to do a much better job of getting to the rim, or he isnt starter material. Cant attribute so few trips to the rim to just players sagging off him, doesnt have the ability to consistently beat guys off the dribble yet. Looks better this season, still looks like a backup, but a good one, if he can keep this up.

Offensively believe there is a lot more daylight between Frank and an elite scoring PG than is being suggested. Dont believe Frank should be penciled in as the future PG just yet. One good game isnt enough for me. Would have to see him play like this all season and get to the line regularly, like the average starting PG.

I agree with you,(though he has had 3 good games overall, and 1 stinker one during this stretch).

The part I don't fully agree is during crunch time. The offense is set up to get the ball to Randle or Morris and count on them as our 2 best scorers. This has lead to scoring droughts in every game this season, sand the one where Portis caught fire. Or when Morris caught fire vs Bos. I would prefer for Fiz to design having Frank and Barrett control the rock, designs to give them space to work with, designs with clear intentions to attack the paint, feed shooters, or find Randle, or take it themselves if its there. Morris has been an ELITE spot up catch and shoot player this season. Randle is better recieving passes to finish around the basket then creating his own. Design to promote guard play and enhance it.

The average starting G gets such design.

Fizdale!

GoNyGoNyGo
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11/7/2019  12:33 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
TPercy wrote:To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me

I agree. I love Frank but he needs to fix this.

Yes, utlimately he will need to be better at this. Do you think it will happen the more he plays and is given time to grow as a player OR sitting on the bench and working in practice?

BigDaddyG
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11/7/2019  12:35 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
TPercy wrote:To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me

I agree. I love Frank but he needs to fix this.

Yes, utlimately he will need to be better at this. Do you think it will happen the more he plays and is given time to grow as a player OR sitting on the bench and working in practice?

I think it will happen on another team.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
NYKBocker
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11/7/2019  12:36 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
TPercy wrote:To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me

I agree. I love Frank but he needs to fix this.

Yes, utlimately he will need to be better at this. Do you think it will happen the more he plays and is given time to grow as a player OR sitting on the bench and working in practice?

Playing more. Is this a trick question?

newyorknewyork
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11/7/2019  12:56 PM

This is our 4th quater offense. Morris wouldn't even be able to penetrate if he tried since the spacing is terrible. Because there is no real structure here.

This isn't PG friendly. Opponent is pressing near the half court. Perfect timing for a pick due to the amount of real estate the PG would have to operate with afterwards. That would promote penetration. Instead the design and spacing is set up for him to give that ball up in the high post to Knox. He gets a good shot off the pick set for him. But we then still knock the PG for not taking over the game. When this is what he is bringing the ball up to.

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NYKBocker
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11/7/2019  1:01 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:

This is our 4th quater offense. Morris wouldn't even be able to penetrate if he tried since the spacing is terrible. Because there is no real structure here.

This isn't PG friendly. Opponent is pressing near the half court. Perfect timing for a pick due to the amount of real estate the PG would have to operate with afterwards. That would promote penetration. Instead the design and spacing is set up for him to give that ball up in the high post to Knox. He gets a good shot off the pick set for him. But we then still knock the PG for not taking over the game. When this is what he is bringing the ball up to.

The first time Fizdale calls for a PnR for Frank will be the first time this year.

Uptown
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11/7/2019  2:45 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2019  2:46 PM
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Frank looked better, no doubt about that. Some of the shots he took, he wouldnt have in the past because he had just missed a shot seconds earlier. Kept firing away. In Frsnk's case, thats a good thing.

What I watched last night was a good backup, if Frank can sustain this level of performance. To be a full time starter, Id want to see him get to the line more, be able to go on runs when the rest of the team is putting up bricks, be able to pick up the slack. Dont believe Frank is there right now.

This! You nailed it in terms of what's required of the modern day lead guard. Attack, collapse the D and create for yourself and others at the same time have a respectable jumper. I'm not knocking Frank when I say this, but he is a back up guard at this point, particularly for this team that's thin on talent. With that said, last night is something to build on.

how many starting PGs in the league play D like that? Simmons and Patty Mills? Anyone else? He plays like that its starting material

Lowry? Bledsoe? Gilgrus Alexander? Rozier? The difference with those guys is they play both sides of the ball. Frank is a career 35% shooter from the field and is one of the reasons why the paint is crowded because when he's on the perimeter most defenders dare him to shoot similar to the way Fox played him. The gap on the offensive side of the ball between Frank and the guys I mentioned above is way wider than any slight gap Frank may or may not have on the defensive end.

I Would like to see some consistency on the offensive end before I anoint him a starter. One game does not a starter make. The previous game Frank was pretty much a non factor on both sides of the ball.

GoNyGoNyGo
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11/7/2019  3:07 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
TPercy wrote:To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me

I agree. I love Frank but he needs to fix this.

Yes, utlimately he will need to be better at this. Do you think it will happen the more he plays and is given time to grow as a player OR sitting on the bench and working in practice?

I think it will happen on another team.

sadly you are probably right...and that is a mistake.

Sangfroid
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11/8/2019  1:22 AM
Vmart wrote:Everyone wants Frank to drive and kick attack the rim and finish. I get that I’m sure even Frank gets that but when you’re trying to build something not just as a player but also in relationship with a coach who has given him a short rope to begin with a player is just gonna try to make his coach happy and play it safe so he can be included. We all know by now that Frank is only playing now because of unforeseen events. Would Frank have been included in anything if the injury and an unfortunate event didn’t happen probably not. Majority of you guys would be say Frank can’t play Fizdale knows and sees him practice and so on. Frank can play and what bothers me more is our Coach didn’t see this.

Frank is coming into his own due to the injury/death in the family playing time that he is accruing. What's gonna kill you is when Fizdale takes credit for "finding" him.

"We are playing a game. We are playing at not playing a game..."
Vmart
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11/8/2019  9:25 AM
Sangfroid wrote:
Vmart wrote:Everyone wants Frank to drive and kick attack the rim and finish. I get that I’m sure even Frank gets that but when you’re trying to build something not just as a player but also in relationship with a coach who has given him a short rope to begin with a player is just gonna try to make his coach happy and play it safe so he can be included. We all know by now that Frank is only playing now because of unforeseen events. Would Frank have been included in anything if the injury and an unfortunate event didn’t happen probably not. Majority of you guys would be say Frank can’t play Fizdale knows and sees him practice and so on. Frank can play and what bothers me more is our Coach didn’t see this.

Frank is coming into his own due to the injury/death in the family playing time that he is accruing. What's gonna kill you is when Fizdale takes credit for "finding" him.

I wouldn’t put it past Fizdale. Dude is nothing but a con man. I said by December-January we would be screaming for him to be shown the door. As of now it’s looking like it will happen. I’m no basketball genius but even the most novice follower would know he is not coaching material much less player developer.

Sambakick
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11/8/2019  12:27 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
TPercy wrote:To be a starting PG he needs to demand the ball way more especially when the team starts losing its cool and devolves into Morris/Randle BS and also needs to start being way more unpredictable on offense. Dude did a lot better no doubt but he basically always picked up his dribble everytime he carried ball down the court and that annoyed the hell out of me

I agree. I love Frank but he needs to fix this.

Yes, utlimately he will need to be better at this. Do you think it will happen the more he plays and is given time to grow as a player OR sitting on the bench and working in practice?

I think it will happen on another team.

sadly you are probably right...and that is a mistake.

Frank needs the light bulb above his head to turn ON!

Teams/coaches will convince themselves they will be able to do that.

I don't think it happens here.

Maybe some team will trade for him and develop him the right way.

The Knicks have effed Frank up since day 1.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
technomaster
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11/8/2019  12:30 PM
Frank has been dealt a rough hand in his career. During his rookie year, the Knicks signed Jarrett Jack as an aging mentor - ideal situation in my opinion. You'd assume Jack would impart some veteran wisdom then Frank would gradually take over. Hornacek, himself an average athlete, would be able to preach a strong work ethic and out-thinking/out-executing the opponent.

Then we went PG nuts and brought in Mudiay and Burke. Then we switched coaches, added Trier, then dumped Burke, and brought in DSJ and Kadeem Allen. Then we dumped Mudiay and added Payton.

It's the type of thing that bad teams in the NFL do if they want to ruin a prized early 1st round QB. After initially showing promise and nurturing him, follow up by making it really hard for him: keep changing the coaching and system, then throw in stiff hungry competition and handing the starting job to everyone else but him.

DSJ has even more baggage than Frank, having been traded, his injuries (the ACL + his back woes - both far more serious than Frank's hamstring issues), plus his personal challenges (NCAA investigation, family loss).

There's has to be a lot of doubt in the long term future of these guys. They're both only in year 3 (and both very young at age 21), but their teams keep telling them that they're not good enough through their actions, if not words.

While it was good to see FIBA Frank - it was a sign that he isn't completely damaged goods yet - even if the Knicks "fix" their head coach problem and replace Fizdale, it means a new head coach, another new system, and more of the same "son, we're all starting on a clean slate, everyone needs to earn their minutes..." and the battle begins again.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Sambakick
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11/8/2019  12:41 PM
Why have the Knicks never used the G-League to get Frank's confidence up? Some of you will say it would hurt his confidence more, but i disagree. I think if you put Frank in a situation where he is the most talented guy on the floor you might see his offensive game flourish.
Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
newyorknewyork
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11/8/2019  12:44 PM
technomaster wrote:Frank has been dealt a rough hand in his career. During his rookie year, the Knicks signed Jarrett Jack as an aging mentor - ideal situation in my opinion. You'd assume Jack would impart some veteran wisdom then Frank would gradually take over. Hornacek, himself an average athlete, would be able to preach a strong work ethic and out-thinking/out-executing the opponent.

Then we went PG nuts and brought in Mudiay and Burke. Then we switched coaches, added Trier, then dumped Burke, and brought in DSJ and Kadeem Allen. Then we dumped Mudiay and added Payton.

It's the type of thing that bad teams in the NFL do if they want to ruin a prized early 1st round QB. After initially showing promise and nurturing him, follow up by making it really hard for him: keep changing the coaching and system, then throw in stiff hungry competition and handing the starting job to everyone else but him.

DSJ has even more baggage than Frank, having been traded, his injuries (the ACL + his back woes - both far more serious than Frank's hamstring issues), plus his personal challenges (NCAA investigation, family loss).

There's has to be a lot of doubt in the long term future of these guys. They're both only in year 3 (and both very young at age 21), but their teams keep telling them that they're not good enough through their actions, if not words.

While it was good to see FIBA Frank - it was a sign that he isn't completely damaged goods yet - even if the Knicks "fix" their head coach problem and replace Fizdale, it means a new head coach, another new system, and more of the same "son, we're all starting on a clean slate, everyone needs to earn their minutes..." and the battle begins again.

Frank in honesty came out for the draft a yr to early. His handle wasn't up to par to run a team during his rookie yr. There were even questions if he was a PG or a wing. Them looking for alternate options at PG was fine. Given the fact that they couldn't put all their eggs in Frank's basket.

Frank had a terrible sophmore season last yr with injuries and poor play whenever he did get an opportunity. So it is understandable that they wouldn't know what they had with him so they would sign a vet like Payton. Frank could have forced the Knicks hand by outplaying everyone and installing complete confidence in him which would then play itself out in terms of what happens to the other PGs.

This season his handle is tighter and his defense is elite. Now is the time to at least put the ball in his hands somewhat with a game plan and design for him to create. Allowing him to grow his game.

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StarksEwing1
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11/8/2019  3:00 PM
I admit I have always been a Frank fan but I always try to be objective. In his first two years despite his really good defense his offense was very raw and not close to being ready. However this year he has shown better flashes as a all around player. I agree he needs to get to the hoop more and hit some more shots BUT he isn’t as tentative as years past. Not saying he is our starter for the future BUT he does have a key role so far.
NYKBocker
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11/8/2019  3:09 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:I admit I have always been a Frank fan but I always try to be objective. In his first two years despite his really good defense his offense was very raw and not close to being ready. However this year he has shown better flashes as a all around player. I agree he needs to get to the hoop more and hit some more shots BUT he isn’t as tentative as years past. Not saying he is our starter for the future BUT he does have a key role so far.

This is a very fair take. Plus, what is the alternative? DSJr is hurt or hurting. Payton is injured. Frank is literally the only true PG we have on the roster right now and he has shown an elite skill as a defender.

That was Fiba Frank

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