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Rebuild progress
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arkrud
Posts: 32217
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11/5/2019  7:18 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:Yeah 3 pieces isn’t bad. Barrett has franchise player potential, Mitch has DPOY potential and Knox is a nice big shooter. It’s a start at least.

If we lose 50+ games this season again, do you for one minute think this roster will get another shot, or even the coach, prez or GM.

Losing = drastic changes, and every yr that's been the case. It's either a new coach, a new GM, a New prez, or a flipped roster.

37 to 42 wins is progress..minor changes

25 to 37 wins is baby steps, no direction, no identity

15 to 25 wins, major changes, heads will roll

Everybody agree that we have only 3 sure keepers.
So how team which needs 7-8 more rotation players can not drastically change?
It is possible somebody else will stick around. But it a maybe.
So with Fiz or without we have a long way from being any good and even God cannot speed it up.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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arkrud
Posts: 32217
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11/5/2019  7:23 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/5/2019  7:25 PM
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
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Joined: 2/3/2004
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11/5/2019  8:46 PM
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourselfthat's pretty funny

ES
arkrud
Posts: 32217
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11/5/2019  8:57 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourselfthat's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
fwk00
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11/5/2019  10:47 PM
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

arkrud
Posts: 32217
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11/6/2019  12:25 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/6/2019  8:46 AM
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

Rebuild is not an unintended happening. It a strategy professional team is committed to follow.
With your logic Knicks are in year 20+ in rebuild starting with Ewing trade... 19 years being unintended.
Jackson tried to retool on the fly maybe keeping the complete rebuild in mind.
But was no commitment to this from ownership and FO, as well as fan base.
Last season started with strong commitment to rebuild the club no matter how long it will take.
And FO is doing exactly that.
KP was a shortcut case which did not pan out as it does is most cases.
So drop your expectations for at least 3-4 seasons. This team will not be any good short term.
Winning is a bonus. The thing to watch is ups and downs of team building and players development.
It is always a time to collect stones. Knicks were masterful to throw them all over. Now it will take long time to collect.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knicksfan
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11/6/2019  7:28 AM
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

What makes you think that so early in his NBA career?

Knicks_Fan
franco12
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11/6/2019  9:16 AM
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Vmart
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11/6/2019  10:06 AM
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.

martin
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11/6/2019  10:31 AM
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.

Did you keep a straight face on when comparing what DSJr and Frank have done with Trae Young? Or were you laughing hysterically and seeing if you could pull off that comparison?

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CrushAlot
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11/6/2019  10:32 AM
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.


Fiz is letting RJ play through mistakes. He let Knox play through mistakes last year. He also moved DJ to the bench to start Mitch. Starting Frank and allowing him to play through mistakes wasn’t an option. He did get 22 mins a game.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Uptown
Posts: 30878
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

11/6/2019  10:36 AM
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.

It's funny you mention this because the moment DSJ turns the ball over or takes one bad shot, you are calling FZ and idiot for leaving him on the floor and calling for Frank.

Also, the point is to compete for championships. If we were able to sign KD and Kyrie, we would be one of the top teams in the east.

knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/6/2019  10:41 AM
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.

Why would you ever consider benching Randle for MR or Knox for Morris.

Trey young is allowed to play though his mistake because he's still doing a lot of other things really really well, to offset is mistake. If he has 3 or 4 bad Turnovers, that's ok because he has 8 to 10 assist, has taken 7 or more free throws, and probably made 5 treys.

Our youngs usually do 1 thing well, and about 5 things really bad.

I just don't understand with all the assets we had we couldn't move up 1 spot in the draft for a position we desperately needing filling. DSJ and our 3rd rounder should have gotten us JA..seriously.

we have a silly conservative front office that will make marginal trades that will have little to no impact at all, and more than likely set us back..

ES
Vmart
Posts: 31800
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
11/6/2019  10:47 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.


Fiz is letting RJ play through mistakes. He let Knox play through mistakes last year. He also moved DJ to the bench to start Mitch. Starting Frank and allowing him to play through mistakes wasn’t an option. He did get 22 mins a game.

Yes RJ and Knox good call. Looks like you have to be a Perry pick to get the play through mistakes part. Oh wait Knox is back on the bench and MR too. What did they do to Frank last year give his minutes to a player who wasn’t going to be around. This year Frank was in dog house if not for injuries and unfortunate events I highly doubt he is your starter today. Isn’t it funny how this rebuilding team always think players from other teams are better than what they have or could develop. What happened to Trier? Last year he was allowed to and encouraged to do what ever today he is in the dog house. You know what this stink tells me RJ is one FA signing away from coming off the bench.

knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/6/2019  11:00 AM
Vmart wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.


Fiz is letting RJ play through mistakes. He let Knox play through mistakes last year. He also moved DJ to the bench to start Mitch. Starting Frank and allowing him to play through mistakes wasn’t an option. He did get 22 mins a game.

Yes RJ and Knox good call. Looks like you have to be a Perry pick to get the play through mistakes part. Oh wait Knox is back on the bench and MR too. What did they do to Frank last year give his minutes to a player who wasn’t going to be around. This year Frank was in dog house if not for injuries and unfortunate events I highly doubt he is your starter today. Isn’t it funny how this rebuilding team always think players from other teams are better than what they have or could develop. What happened to Trier? Last year he was allowed to and encouraged to do what ever today he is in the dog house. You know what this stink tells me RJ is one FA signing away from coming off the bench.

who is frank better than?

Frank got the start against one of the worst team in the west, and it has been our worst defeat of the young season.

ES
Vmart
Posts: 31800
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
11/6/2019  11:16 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/6/2019  11:39 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Vmart wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.


Fiz is letting RJ play through mistakes. He let Knox play through mistakes last year. He also moved DJ to the bench to start Mitch. Starting Frank and allowing him to play through mistakes wasn’t an option. He did get 22 mins a game.

Yes RJ and Knox good call. Looks like you have to be a Perry pick to get the play through mistakes part. Oh wait Knox is back on the bench and MR too. What did they do to Frank last year give his minutes to a player who wasn’t going to be around. This year Frank was in dog house if not for injuries and unfortunate events I highly doubt he is your starter today. Isn’t it funny how this rebuilding team always think players from other teams are better than what they have or could develop. What happened to Trier? Last year he was allowed to and encouraged to do what ever today he is in the dog house. You know what this stink tells me RJ is one FA signing away from coming off the bench.

who is frank better than?

Frank got the start against one of the worst team in the west, and it has been our worst defeat of the young season.

He also was subject to two ridiculous foul calls that put him on the bench. Everyone knows when Frank goes to the bench the defense goes down hill. I know you are enamored with the offensive end of the floor. Defense is this teams best bet to win. When you have young players who are still coming into their games and strength and skill are still developing defense has to be the calling card to stay in the games. Knox, MR, RJ and Frank will improve with time their shooting will get better and creativity will increase with one thing only and that is more and more playing time. I don’t doubt Frank and his ability to shoot he has a smooth stroke and it’s just a matter of playing more and more. With that said out of the three pgs on this team Frank has the most upside Of them all. His defense sets him apart from the others It’s a just a matter of time for his shooting.

Defense is this teams best bet to win and that is what puzzles me with MR move to the bench.

Knicksfan
Posts: 32795
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 7/5/2004
Member: #691
USA
11/6/2019  11:20 AM
So funny we keep arguing over the same points because nobody is happy. Here's my take:

1. Year 1, 2, 3 or 40th of rebuilding, it doesn't matter. That's like stopping doing exercise on your weight loss plan because you missed a day. What matters is where you are right now and what steps can you take to be relevant as soon as possible.

The Knicks have always approached that the wrong way: trading picks for washed up vets, signing underwhelming talent to eternal contracts, etc. AT LEAST we can all agree that this management has had a better approach: keep your picks at all cost, trade for more picks, sign unproven talent to short deals and try to find diamonds in the rough.

Some has panned out and some hasn't. As stated, RJ, Mitch and Knox look like keepers. Lets wait and see on who starts and who backs up. Then we have DSJr, Frank, Trier and Iggy, guys who could join the previous three if they get their act together or could serve as trade bait. Not sold on the longevity of Randle in NY, especially the way the coach uses him.

2. The Nets deserve some praise for getting the two biggest free agents last offseason, but lets not lose perspective. For years they have had many assets and flexibility that they have blown with trades. Things could've worked out different if Durant hadn't injured himself in the playoffs, but that's speculation now. Sinking the Knicks under this argument is weak because they did put themselves in the same situation of signing both players. Sure, their bad track record seems to have killed them and they have nobody but themselves to blame, but its not like moves weren't successfully made to be in the position to sign them. Had the Knicks been the choice, would they be getting any praise?

Knicks_Fan
Knicksfan
Posts: 32795
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 7/5/2004
Member: #691
USA
11/6/2019  11:22 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.


Fiz is letting RJ play through mistakes. He let Knox play through mistakes last year. He also moved DJ to the bench to start Mitch. Starting Frank and allowing him to play through mistakes wasn’t an option. He did get 22 mins a game.

Very true

Knicks_Fan
franco12
Posts: 33150
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
11/6/2019  11:35 AM
Vmart wrote:
franco12 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
MS wrote:We are way behind on the rebuild.

We have two promising players that figure to be starters for a long time. RJ is going to make a couple of All Star teams, but isn’t a franchise player.

We have two nice bench pieces in the 7th and 8th spots in Frank and Dotson and a wildcard in Knox. He just doesn’t seem to use his body correctly at his size with that reach and athletics match he should be better around the rim and his footwork and motor are weak.

Organizationally we are unbelievably weak. A bottom two owner, an unproven front office and a coach who hasn’t shown he is capable of installing an offense or finding rotations.

Our biggest need this offseason was point guard, so why did we sign four forwards? Rubio at two years made a lot more sense than giving Ellington, Bullock and Portis, 36MM a year. Honestly, would have made more sense to keep Vonleh and Mario for $6MM a year, with a real point guard and not create such a mess with zero spacing.

The front office is as important as our rebuilding pieces because right now they are falling way short.

Way behind of whom?
We are just one year into rebuild and average rebuild in NBA takes at least 5 seasons.
Team can get lucky and draft superstar but even superstar needs year to rich the potential.
Top FAs? Why they will consider to join rebuilding team. They will come after rebuild is bringing some visible fruits and this takes years.
This "banana boat" star alliances made a bad trick with fans minds. Everyone now expect miracles but obviously getting only pain.

Yr 1 of a rebuild...lol..wow

That's what your telling yourself that's pretty funny

So what year it is?
1 year and 7 games to be precise.

You are using the wrong metric as well as writing off an awful lot of developing players.

We are going into year 5 of a rebuild, 2 of which were unintended and partial.

Our picks were KP, Frankie, Knox, Barrett, Dotson, Mitch, Iggy. The KP trade compounded into DSJ and a handful of free agents, some of whom will stick around.

That's a nice haul AND we have multiple picks going forward.

I would argue that we are not falling short but suffering from an abundance of new, unfamiliar riches.

I have reservations about Fizdale but I'm following Alan Hahn's advice and giving it time before advocating pulling the plug. But Fizdale has talent to work with and he and the rest of the coaching staff have to start playing what works until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, recalibrate the rotation. Seems to me the issue is the front court defensive chemistry.

I was just watching some Trae Young highlights, and our problem isn't an abundance of new unfamiliar riches. Our problem is we've had unfortunate draft luck the last several years. We got KP, but for whatever reason, he wanted no part of NYC. We drafted Frank and never had a shot at better players and didn't luck out and pick better players like Mitchell.

We sucked and ended up with Kevin Knox, never had a shot at a star. A team like Dallas were smart and well positioned to trade up for Dončić.

So, we haven't been lucky or smart. Other teams have.

I've tried to give our FO the benefit of the doubt, but this summer was their all in moves. They pushed their chips in, and I know it was plan B. Some of the signings, I liked.

In hindsight, not retaining someone like Mudiay is going to be regretted. We knew heading into this season, both Frank and DSjr were giant question marks. Both have a history of being dinged up. Both have a history of maybe not showing signs of reaching potential.

Can they learn from their mistakes, maybe turn some of these short term signings into something better at the deadline?

Will the draft gods look kindly on us for once, and allow us to draft a better player than some of the marginal players we've gotten?

Have you forgotten that we drafted a very good player in KP. The problem here is Trae You g was allowed the reigns of his team right off the bat. Make as many mistakes as he liked and play trough them. Fizdale hasn’t let anyone if the drafted point guards play through mistake sighting mistakes when there were no mistakes and benching when it wasn’t warranted.
Imagine if the Knicks had landed Durant and Kyrie guess what rebuilding is up shyts creek at that point. What do you call sitting MR who gives the Knicks the most defensive presence in the paint and best chance to win for Randle. I think management is really trying to justify moves rather than keeping to the rebuilding plan. They are looking for anything to get out of rebuilding.

We did get KP. And for whatever reason, he wanted out.

Is it because of family? He's european and been part of a pro league longer?

If we had landed Karl Anthony Towns, would he have wanted out?

I'll grant you, a big part of KP wanting out was the dysfunction, especially with Phil Jackson and the BS moves he made.

And looking at his situation in Dallas to what he left behind, I can blame him for making the request to get out. Can you?

My point is we 1. haven't been especially lucky and 2. our front office hasn't been especially smart. Or stable!

Right now, they're stable. I'd argue this is the start of the rebuild, with Scott Perry. Is he up to the task? Does he have enough talent in the FO to help?

And, will he have enough time to learn and build through mistakes?

Vmart
Posts: 31800
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
11/6/2019  12:02 PM
Lucky? KP now RJ that is a potent dynamic duo right there. Has the management been smart have they ever been. The management has made moves whimsically with no foresight in mind. Everything they do has tinge of instant gratification to it. They simply cannot get out of their way. They cater to their free agents their traded for players over what they have been given and always slow the development process sometimes grinding it to a halt which we have seen on many occasions.
Bottom line is if you play your FAs your losing and if you play your young players and lose your developing.
Rebuild progress

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