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Frank offense breakdown
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BigDaddyG
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10/31/2019  11:36 AM
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
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houston20
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10/31/2019  11:40 AM
The problem with frank, dsj, and payton is this they all suck on offense right now. The problem with frank is this he was happy just to get 7 points last night after the 1 quarter he was complete trash on offense. The main problem the knicks need a point guard asap the 2 best option are either Dennis Schroeder or D'Angelo Russell. The good thing about trading for danagelo russell is the warriors have a 17 million dollar trade exception so basically you trade morris, either one of frank or dsj , dotson, ignaz brazdigs and dallas 2023 first round pick. Why would warriors do that trade they would be under the luxury tax plus with steph curry injured the warriors can tank now and it perfect time for warriors rebuild.
Juliano
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10/31/2019  11:57 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:

It's funny how easy and relaxed he looks when he makes that buzzer three, it shows it's mostly about confidence with him. There's no pressure on that shot as no one will blame him for missing, and oh surprise it falls.

newyorknewyork
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10/31/2019  12:22 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The love for Ntilikina and amount of threads are unreal. How can you quantify a player who legitimately can't put the ball in the basket if he was alone in the gym but clearly makes an impact with his defense? I guess that's why there's such a debate.

Every thread involves Frank, mind as well call him RUDY..RUDY...RUDY

The guy with the least amount of impact is the most talked about, if he has a deflection there's thread started, if he steals the ball, he's DOY candidate, if he shoots 2 fo 100, his offense will come later, if takes 2 free throws in 10 games, he doesn't get the calls, if he makes a couple of stops on Kyrie or Kemba, he's now a the best perimeter defender in the league, so what he can't shoot, thats not important now, we have enough scorers, he can end the game with a plus minus of - 20, and that gets disregarded(only when it comes to him) as a stupid stat that doesn't tell the whole story
and are willing to patient for however long it takes.

No other player on the roster gets a pass for his mistakes like frank, the ones who love him will overlook every flaw and be patient for the next 5 yrs or more

Whatever you need to tell yourself for being banned from the bandwagon

All emotion, no facts.

Agreed. Besides not liking Frank he hates the fact that fans are rooting for him which as I as fan I thought that was what we were suppose to do . However even those of us who support Frank have been very fair of his play. We all agree he needs to produce more offensively and hit those shots. Even though he went 0-6 last game i liked what i saw from his looks, they just didn't go down. Hopefully tonight and going forward they will.

I don't dislike frank, i don't know where you get that from, I'm just not given him every excuse in the book..

I also think we need an elite PG, something he's absolutely not,but I'm fine with him off the bench for 20 minutes

Nobody is making excuses for him. In fact most are fine with him coming off the bench.

I don't even see why Frank would need excuses.

He has outperformed Smith who is currently out. He fills a need with guards like Murray, Irving, Walker all going off on the Knicks leading to our 0-3 start. Fans want to see him get consistent mins to see if this will lead to him upping his offensive production.

Frank got his highest min total with 22mins and Knicks got their first win. Fans want to see if this trend will continue with him getting more PT. Pretty cut and dry, all else is noise for us to entertain ourselves with.

Mitch Robinson who also brings it defensively gets tons of love and patience as well. He isn't as polarizing because there aren't many who are going to criticize him for his flaws. If so, there would be debates and threads non stop on the topic.


So you're basically saying that FIZ and his coaching staff are idiots (and don't know what the hell they're doing) for benching Frank over DSJ and Payton..

Which means that frank out perform them in training camp, but was regulated to the bench

Do you really think that frank has been our best guard, or at least better then the other 2 options, and Fizdale benched him because he doesn't like him. Do you feel that frank never got a fair shot.


Franks going to get some minutes over the next few games and i want you to count how many fast breaks he initiates, how many FT's he takes, and how many times he penetrates.

I can't claim them to be idiots because I'm not arrogant enough to act like I have as much information as they have when they make their decisions. But when the games were played. Smith was clearly struggling with his game. We saw PGs get easy layups on him routinely.

If Smith and was playing well and we were winning games nobody is talking about Frank right now. Other than maybe Vmart. But we are because Smith struggled and Gs were having their way with us.

Payton was terrible in preseason leaving the door open for who should start. Since the only thing that stood out in preseason from the PGs was Frank's defense on Young. But Payton's game vs the Spurs when he came in was impactful on both sides of the ball. So he has taken the starting job by having the best overall game so far this season at the position.

The standards are pretty low, but this is what we have.

The things you stated aren't his game. Would be like me expecting Smith Jr or Payton to play defense at the level of Frank. Or expecting Mitch Robinson to have a back to basket game. The videos in the thread highlight Frank's game. Getting the ball to open bigs off the trap and PNR instead of his own drive attempts for fouls. Getting the ball up the court with a pass to his teammate who is ahead of him instead of leading the fast break himself.


In 29 minutes, no fast breaks, no layups, 8 wide open jump shots 3-8, no free throws.

Cmon on now... 83 points

Knicks shot 7-31 from 3 missing a ton of open 3 threes as a team. Magic missed a lot early then got hot at the right time and got all the loose ball late.

Frank didn’t have any layups or fts. I also can’t remember any of the Magic pgs getting layups or breaking down our defense leading to open shots for their teammates, or leading fast breaks, or getting to the line applying pressure on the Knicks. Haven seen much of that in his 51mins so far this season.

Would have preferred during that late stretch Fiz put the ball in Franks hands over having him stand in the corner letting Morris run the show. To see if he can offer some FIBA Frank or at least maybe work the pick.

Your not going to get FIBA FRANK because you he doesn't have the same FIBA teammates defending, or the same system where guys cut and move without the ball. In Fiz system, frank brings the ball up. and disappears for the rest of the possession.

I thought Fiz said he was stealing some plays from FIBA for frank..

Barrett is the only player who consistently cuts to the basket. I believe those options are there. Based off seeing Barrett use his IQ to do so. But that could also be because he would rather cut and slash than shoot the 3.

I would have liked to see Frank control the ball more that stretch. The results couldn't have been worse than the 3 total pts scored. At the same time Frank also needs to demand it. I am sure Fiz is begging for him to do so. But he is such a team player it would contradict his NBA DNA. Fiz may need to let him know it's okay to do so. Especially in games like that. Not to be afraid to look to take control, and not to be afraid to fail.

I see how you ignore, gloss over, and down play everything he does defensively. I want to see you acknowledge Frank's impact on defense.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
StarksEwing1
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10/31/2019  12:55 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:The love for Ntilikina and amount of threads are unreal. How can you quantify a player who legitimately can't put the ball in the basket if he was alone in the gym but clearly makes an impact with his defense? I guess that's why there's such a debate.

Every thread involves Frank, mind as well call him RUDY..RUDY...RUDY

The guy with the least amount of impact is the most talked about, if he has a deflection there's thread started, if he steals the ball, he's DOY candidate, if he shoots 2 fo 100, his offense will come later, if takes 2 free throws in 10 games, he doesn't get the calls, if he makes a couple of stops on Kyrie or Kemba, he's now a the best perimeter defender in the league, so what he can't shoot, thats not important now, we have enough scorers, he can end the game with a plus minus of - 20, and that gets disregarded(only when it comes to him) as a stupid stat that doesn't tell the whole story
and are willing to patient for however long it takes.

No other player on the roster gets a pass for his mistakes like frank, the ones who love him will overlook every flaw and be patient for the next 5 yrs or more

Whatever you need to tell yourself for being banned from the bandwagon

All emotion, no facts.

Agreed. Besides not liking Frank he hates the fact that fans are rooting for him which as I as fan I thought that was what we were suppose to do . However even those of us who support Frank have been very fair of his play. We all agree he needs to produce more offensively and hit those shots. Even though he went 0-6 last game i liked what i saw from his looks, they just didn't go down. Hopefully tonight and going forward they will.

I don't dislike frank, i don't know where you get that from, I'm just not given him every excuse in the book..

I also think we need an elite PG, something he's absolutely not,but I'm fine with him off the bench for 20 minutes

Nobody is making excuses for him. In fact most are fine with him coming off the bench.

I don't even see why Frank would need excuses.

He has outperformed Smith who is currently out. He fills a need with guards like Murray, Irving, Walker all going off on the Knicks leading to our 0-3 start. Fans want to see him get consistent mins to see if this will lead to him upping his offensive production.

Frank got his highest min total with 22mins and Knicks got their first win. Fans want to see if this trend will continue with him getting more PT. Pretty cut and dry, all else is noise for us to entertain ourselves with.

Mitch Robinson who also brings it defensively gets tons of love and patience as well. He isn't as polarizing because there aren't many who are going to criticize him for his flaws. If so, there would be debates and threads non stop on the topic.


So you're basically saying that FIZ and his coaching staff are idiots (and don't know what the hell they're doing) for benching Frank over DSJ and Payton..

Which means that frank out perform them in training camp, but was regulated to the bench

Do you really think that frank has been our best guard, or at least better then the other 2 options, and Fizdale benched him because he doesn't like him. Do you feel that frank never got a fair shot.


Franks going to get some minutes over the next few games and i want you to count how many fast breaks he initiates, how many FT's he takes, and how many times he penetrates.

I can't claim them to be idiots because I'm not arrogant enough to act like I have as much information as they have when they make their decisions. But when the games were played. Smith was clearly struggling with his game. We saw PGs get easy layups on him routinely.

If Smith and was playing well and we were winning games nobody is talking about Frank right now. Other than maybe Vmart. But we are because Smith struggled and Gs were having their way with us.

Payton was terrible in preseason leaving the door open for who should start. Since the only thing that stood out in preseason from the PGs was Frank's defense on Young. But Payton's game vs the Spurs when he came in was impactful on both sides of the ball. So he has taken the starting job by having the best overall game so far this season at the position.

The standards are pretty low, but this is what we have.

The things you stated aren't his game. Would be like me expecting Smith Jr or Payton to play defense at the level of Frank. Or expecting Mitch Robinson to have a back to basket game. The videos in the thread highlight Frank's game. Getting the ball to open bigs off the trap and PNR instead of his own drive attempts for fouls. Getting the ball up the court with a pass to his teammate who is ahead of him instead of leading the fast break himself.


In 29 minutes, no fast breaks, no layups, 8 wide open jump shots 3-8, no free throws.

Cmon on now... 83 points

Knicks shot 7-31 from 3 missing a ton of open 3 threes as a team. Magic missed a lot early then got hot at the right time and got all the loose ball late.

Frank didn’t have any layups or fts. I also can’t remember any of the Magic pgs getting layups or breaking down our defense leading to open shots for their teammates, or leading fast breaks, or getting to the line applying pressure on the Knicks. Haven seen much of that in his 51mins so far this season.

Would have preferred during that late stretch Fiz put the ball in Franks hands over having him stand in the corner letting Morris run the show. To see if he can offer some FIBA Frank or at least maybe work the pick.

Your not going to get FIBA FRANK because you he doesn't have the same FIBA teammates defending, or the same system where guys cut and move without the ball. In Fiz system, frank brings the ball up. and disappears for the rest of the possession.

I thought Fiz said he was stealing some plays from FIBA for frank..

Barrett is the only player who consistently cuts to the basket. I believe those options are there. Based off seeing Barrett use his IQ to do so. But that could also be because he would rather cut and slash than shoot the 3.

I would have liked to see Frank control the ball more that stretch. The results couldn't have been worse than the 3 total pts scored. At the same time Frank also needs to demand it. I am sure Fiz is begging for him to do so. But he is such a team player it would contradict his NBA DNA. Fiz may need to let him know it's okay to do so. Especially in games like that. Not to be afraid to look to take control, and not to be afraid to fail.

I see how you ignore, gloss over, and down play everything he does defensively. I want to see you acknowledge Frank's impact on defense.

He doesn't care about defense by his own admission he feels it really doesn't impact the game at all lol. Yes Frank isn't flashy and he didn't score after getting the 7pts but the Knicks seemed more in control when he was on the floor and not just him but the whole bench was great. The bench were the one show got us the lead and had the get us out of the hole in the third quarter.
technomaster
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10/31/2019  1:17 PM
Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
knicks1248
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10/31/2019  1:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/31/2019  1:54 PM
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best

ES
BigDaddyG
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10/31/2019  2:48 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best


Frank is also a good passer out of the PnR and is very good passing north/south to initiate breaks. He's also gotten better at pushing the pace and initiating the offense. Frank does do a lot of good things and he has a lot of weaknesses. Are you saying he's the problem?
No one's is saying Frank is a world beater, but he should've played more. I would say the same thing about Dot, but I'm not sure where he was at physically at the start of the season. Also, who Payton and Randle look trash now when it appeared they were turning the corner in NO? I'm trying to give Fiz the benefit of the doubt and I know Grizzlies players praised him for their development. But I think he focuses so much on making players improve their weakness rather than recognizing their strengths. I know Iso Zo needs to do a better job at setting others up, but the boy can score. Why not put him out there and see what he has when the offense is slowed down. Now we see RJ at point guard just like we saw Frank at Small forward last year. I'm all for experimenting. But you do have hat crap in pre-season and practice.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
newyorknewyork
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10/31/2019  4:01 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best

This is exactly why you are banned from the bandwagon, and no one believes you when you try to say "you like Frank" to protect yourself just in case Frank does well.

This thread was created based off video tape evidence of positive actions created by Frank offensively even if it wasn't him scoring. Yet with all your thoughts on this topic you failed to highlight and challenge any of the multiple videos presented in the op.

Your judgment towards PGs seems based off their ability to drive, get fts, lead fast breaks. Which is pretty standard. Yet when evaluating how effective opposing PGs are able to do these same exact things on the Knicks. When Frank is in the game, again I haven't seen PGs effectively do these same things on the Knicks so far this season. So how are you quantifying that Frank plays "solid" defense?

Something has to give.

If you truly value these things from the PG position. Then you would value limiting these same things from opposing pgs. Coaches who value spacing for layups or 3s offensively also value running teams off the 3 point line, not giving up layups, and forcing opponents into contested mid range shots. Because its not just good enough to do those things but to also limit your opponent from doing those things. Frank fills one part of that aspect at a high level. A complimentary player could fill the other aspect. If Frank did both at the level he plays defense then he would be a superstar. He does one so he is a role player.

Or maybe you only "value" these things because you know this isn't Frank's game. Which would explain why you don't value and downplay his defensive impact, as you know he does that well.

I would say we know Franks game, his strengths and weaknesses. The non agenda approach would be to look to cover his weaknesses with complimentary players. While capitalizing on the strengths he already does at a high level, which is a premium ability. While also continuing to work and develop the skills that he does have offensively to become more effective. All pretty standard development procedure and team building for teams not named the Knicks over the years.

Doesn't mean we would be developing a superstar. Means we would be trying to hone someone with unique and premium skill set.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
StarksEwing1
Posts: 32671
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10/31/2019  5:03 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best

This is exactly why you are banned from the bandwagon, and no one believes you when you try to say "you like Frank" to protect yourself just in case Frank does well.

This thread was created based off video tape evidence of positive actions created by Frank offensively even if it wasn't him scoring. Yet with all your thoughts on this topic you failed to highlight and challenge any of the multiple videos presented in the op.

Your judgment towards PGs seems based off their ability to drive, get fts, lead fast breaks. Which is pretty standard. Yet when evaluating how effective opposing PGs are able to do these same exact things on the Knicks. When Frank is in the game, again I haven't seen PGs effectively do these same things on the Knicks so far this season. So how are you quantifying that Frank plays "solid" defense?

Something has to give.

If you truly value these things from the PG position. Then you would value limiting these same things from opposing pgs. Coaches who value spacing for layups or 3s offensively also value running teams off the 3 point line, not giving up layups, and forcing opponents into contested mid range shots. Because its not just good enough to do those things but to also limit your opponent from doing those things. Frank fills one part of that aspect at a high level. A complimentary player could fill the other aspect. If Frank did both at the level he plays defense then he would be a superstar. He does one so he is a role player.

Or maybe you only "value" these things because you know this isn't Frank's game. Which would explain why you don't value and downplay his defensive impact, as you know he does that well.

I would say we know Franks game, his strengths and weaknesses. The non agenda approach would be to look to cover his weaknesses with complimentary players. While capitalizing on the strengths he already does at a high level, which is a premium ability. While also continuing to work and develop the skills that he does have offensively to become more effective. All pretty standard development procedure and team building for teams not named the Knicks over the years.

Doesn't mean we would be developing a superstar. Means we would be trying to hone someone with unique and premium skill set.

Excellent Post!!
Nalod
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11/1/2019  8:16 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best

This is exactly why you are banned from the bandwagon, and no one believes you when you try to say "you like Frank" to protect yourself just in case Frank does well.

This thread was created based off video tape evidence of positive actions created by Frank offensively even if it wasn't him scoring. Yet with all your thoughts on this topic you failed to highlight and challenge any of the multiple videos presented in the op.

Your judgment towards PGs seems based off their ability to drive, get fts, lead fast breaks. Which is pretty standard. Yet when evaluating how effective opposing PGs are able to do these same exact things on the Knicks. When Frank is in the game, again I haven't seen PGs effectively do these same things on the Knicks so far this season. So how are you quantifying that Frank plays "solid" defense?

Something has to give.

If you truly value these things from the PG position. Then you would value limiting these same things from opposing pgs. Coaches who value spacing for layups or 3s offensively also value running teams off the 3 point line, not giving up layups, and forcing opponents into contested mid range shots. Because its not just good enough to do those things but to also limit your opponent from doing those things. Frank fills one part of that aspect at a high level. A complimentary player could fill the other aspect. If Frank did both at the level he plays defense then he would be a superstar. He does one so he is a role player.

Or maybe you only "value" these things because you know this isn't Frank's game. Which would explain why you don't value and downplay his defensive impact, as you know he does that well.

I would say we know Franks game, his strengths and weaknesses. The non agenda approach would be to look to cover his weaknesses with complimentary players. While capitalizing on the strengths he already does at a high level, which is a premium ability. While also continuing to work and develop the skills that he does have offensively to become more effective. All pretty standard development procedure and team building for teams not named the Knicks over the years.

Doesn't mean we would be developing a superstar. Means we would be trying to hone someone with unique and premium skill set.



Intersting perspective.
knicks1248
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11/1/2019  8:48 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best

This is exactly why you are banned from the bandwagon, and no one believes you when you try to say "you like Frank" to protect yourself just in case Frank does well.

This thread was created based off video tape evidence of positive actions created by Frank offensively even if it wasn't him scoring. Yet with all your thoughts on this topic you failed to highlight and challenge any of the multiple videos presented in the op.

Your judgment towards PGs seems based off their ability to drive, get fts, lead fast breaks. Which is pretty standard. Yet when evaluating how effective opposing PGs are able to do these same exact things on the Knicks. When Frank is in the game, again I haven't seen PGs effectively do these same things on the Knicks so far this season. So how are you quantifying that Frank plays "solid" defense?

Something has to give.

If you truly value these things from the PG position. Then you would value limiting these same things from opposing pgs. Coaches who value spacing for layups or 3s offensively also value running teams off the 3 point line, not giving up layups, and forcing opponents into contested mid range shots. Because its not just good enough to do those things but to also limit your opponent from doing those things. Frank fills one part of that aspect at a high level. A complimentary player could fill the other aspect. If Frank did both at the level he plays defense then he would be a superstar. He does one so he is a role player.

Or maybe you only "value" these things because you know this isn't Frank's game. Which would explain why you don't value and downplay his defensive impact, as you know he does that well.

I would say we know Franks game, his strengths and weaknesses. The non agenda approach would be to look to cover his weaknesses with complimentary players. While capitalizing on the strengths he already does at a high level, which is a premium ability. While also continuing to work and develop the skills that he does have offensively to become more effective. All pretty standard development procedure and team building for teams not named the Knicks over the years.

Doesn't mean we would be developing a superstar. Means we would be trying to hone someone with unique and premium skill set.

Is frank a 2 way player?

I value a two way players, a player that is really really good at 2 things..

I value a players that FIT the system that he's playing in way more than Talented player who's skills don't benefit or compliment the system..

We don't have the pieces that compliments franks game, or the system, or the coach, and i know you know that..

When I say he's a solid defender, that's not a knock, but let's keep it 100... he's not shutting no one down on his own, like say a gary payton of Ron artest, He's a good solid team defender.

But you can't leave him on the floor when your struggling to score, so now what?

That's why he can't get consistent minutes..

It's the same thing you would tell a player that doesn't play d

ES
technomaster
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11/1/2019  9:56 AM
Frank Ntilikina fits the mold for a PG on a team that has ball dominant playmakers at other positions - like the Knicks. Barrett and Randle need the ball, (particularly Barrett) because they're looking to create points for their teams with the pass.

Frank does a lot of good things, but obviously needs to work on a lot of things before he establishes himself as a reliable rotation player, even starter. I'm very nervous when he's on the floor - and if we as fans feel nervous, you can only imagine what Fizdale feels. I go through the same feelings when I see Trier or DSJ on the floor - not sure if something brilliant or disasterous.

When we think PG, you immediately go down one of two paths:
* the prototypical pass-first PG: Chris Paul, John Stockton, Mark Jackson. Deron Williams, Jason Kidd. Rings between them: 1
* scoring PG: Stephen Curry, Russell Westbrook, Lillard, Iverson, Sam Cassell, Gary Payton.

Then there's this:
* The serviceable role playing PGs who do the little things: Derek Fisher (and all of those Phil Jackson PGs: Pete Myers, Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Darrell Walker, Jordan Farmar, etc), Eric Snow, Chauncey Billups, the version of Jason Kidd that won a title with Dallas, the version of Gary Payton that won a title with Miami; currently, DeJounte Murray, Elfrid Payton

This latter is type is what Phil envisioned with Frank - It's basically what you need if your PG is not your franchise player. With a lottery pick, he was hoping for a very high level version of this type of role with upside to spare.

In baseball terms, Frank akin to an elite defensive SS/CF prospect who you hope will learn how to get on base. He can lay down a bunt and is a smart runner, but you consider batting the pitcher ahead of him.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
knicks1248
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11/1/2019  10:16 AM
technomaster wrote:Frank Ntilikina fits the mold for a PG on a team that has ball dominant playmakers at other positions - like the Knicks. Barrett and Randle need the ball, (particularly Barrett) because they're looking to create points for their teams with the pass.

Frank does a lot of good things, but obviously needs to work on a lot of things before he establishes himself as a reliable rotation player, even starter. I'm very nervous when he's on the floor - and if we as fans feel nervous, you can only imagine what Fizdale feels. I go through the same feelings when I see Trier or DSJ on the floor - not sure if something brilliant or disasterous.

When we think PG, you immediately go down one of two paths:
* the prototypical pass-first PG: Chris Paul, John Stockton, Mark Jackson. Deron Williams, Jason Kidd. Rings between them: 1
* scoring PG: Stephen Curry, Russell Westbrook, Lillard, Iverson, Sam Cassell, Gary Payton.

Then there's this:
* The serviceable role playing PGs who do the little things: Derek Fisher (and all of those Phil Jackson PGs: Pete Myers, Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Darrell Walker, Jordan Farmar, etc), Eric Snow, Chauncey Billups, the version of Jason Kidd that won a title with Dallas, the version of Gary Payton that won a title with Miami; currently, DeJounte Murray, Elfrid Payton

This latter is type is what Phil envisioned with Frank - It's basically what you need if your PG is not your franchise player. With a lottery pick, he was hoping for a very high level version of this type of role with upside to spare.

In baseball terms, Frank akin to an elite defensive SS/CF prospect who you hope will learn how to get on base. He can lay down a bunt and is a smart runner, but you consider batting the pitcher ahead of him.

Great post..

When your team lacks the appropriate pg to run the coaches offensive system, then you have a serious problem.

MDA's system had Felton almost playing at a all star level (avg career #s in points an assist) Had Duhon post the most assist in Knicks history with 22, turned LIN into a global star, turned HARDEN and Nash in to MVP's.

Fiz system, on top of having 2 other PGs and 5 sg's, and his lack of experience on how to adjust, is not going to be good for frank or the knicks.

If Trier, Payton or DSJ have a good game, then it's back to the bench for frank..

ES
Nalod
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11/1/2019  10:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/1/2019  10:54 AM
We had MDA. We made him gone too.
How those teams work out with Felton and Duhan? Your using individual players an stats to prove a point.
Nobody here is promoting the Current state of Frank as the long term answer. He either gets better as hoped, or he'll be gone.
That he does some things really well is the point. Felton was a high lottery pick. Harden and Nash were allstars. He turned them to MVP's. They were established. Nash was an allstar in Dallas before PHX. Your talking offensive stats. He made LIn a flash in the pan until he ground him to a meniscus tear in his knee. Great analogy. BTW, I liked MDA a lot!!! Too bad Melo didn't.

If your talking baseball look at this dude's career:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/smithoz01.shtml
Guy makes first all star batting .222 at age 26. By age 33 he is perennial allstar and finally hits over .300!!!!
All the while his defense was the his best attribute! 13 gold gloves!!!

His defense put him on the field. His defense allowed him time to work on his offensive game.

HofstraBBall
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11/1/2019  10:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/1/2019  1:01 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:

This seems familiar? The annual check out how good Frank is getting video.

And the year before....

Do not think anyone is doubting the kid can play defense and has shown glimpses of offense?
But I really think that these breakdown videos of how he stopped ONE play from scoring is getting old. They also seem to be for the benefit of guys trying to convince themselves that Frank is not what he has been. And that is just a solid defensive role player and not proving to be a worth while 8 pick to this point.

FYI. If we are breaking down video...Don't know if anyone watched the Orlando game but Frank (The defensive player) missed a chance to steal a deflected pass right near him during a crucial time in the 4th (3:05). A deflected ball that was picked up and ended up with a pass to Gordan for a crucial 3 that took it from a 4 point game to 7 point and began the collapse. He was also sent and yet Orlando went on an 8-0 run and never looked back. Point is, lets stop with the Baker type analyzing. As we saw, Gordan (Offensive player) had more impact than a defensive role player. Frank is a good player but right now Payton is our best PG. And thats not good. RJ, who is not a PG, is our second best PG. And that is not good. Frank may get to the point he can be the back up and maybe even a starter. But he is years behind being able to do what Payton can do fluently and is at the same level as RJ, who is a rookie and not a PG. He has a lot of improving to do. Do agree that there is no reason to give him lots of minutes to prove if he is worth investing in long term. Payton is not exactly giving enough reasons to keep the evaluation from happening and Smith Jr. looks like he is not right mentally and needs a change of scenery. (Yet another part of KP trade that has not gone Mill's/Perry's way)

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
newyorknewyork
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11/1/2019  11:18 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
technomaster wrote:Fizdale is putting a lot of pressure on RJ Barrett, basically making him the day-1 starter at PG. I won't say Barrett's playing out of position, but it's become commonplace to play rookie/young PGs alongside another quality ball handler to take the pressure off them.

Ellington doesn't do much on the floor than shoot it (if his shot isn't falling his value is limited).

On the other hand, Frank does a lot of good things on the floor, and it's a big bonus if his shot is falling (which it doesn't usually).

It's kind of a question of what the biggest need is alongside Barrett: is it shooting, or is all of the facilitation of the offense and defense?

Here we go again..

If frank did a lot of good things, we wouldn't be having Barret and Randle trying to play point or trading and signing pg after pg.
'
when you talk about a player on the roster that does a lot of good things, you can look at Barret and Randle..Thats it..Frank plays solid defense, that's it..we need a upgrade in the worst way

When they talk about frank being able to organize the team, all that means is he takes his time, walks the ball up, passes it east or west, and goes to his corner.

I hate that we have to use randle and Barret as pg, because he takes away from what they do best

This is exactly why you are banned from the bandwagon, and no one believes you when you try to say "you like Frank" to protect yourself just in case Frank does well.

This thread was created based off video tape evidence of positive actions created by Frank offensively even if it wasn't him scoring. Yet with all your thoughts on this topic you failed to highlight and challenge any of the multiple videos presented in the op.

Your judgment towards PGs seems based off their ability to drive, get fts, lead fast breaks. Which is pretty standard. Yet when evaluating how effective opposing PGs are able to do these same exact things on the Knicks. When Frank is in the game, again I haven't seen PGs effectively do these same things on the Knicks so far this season. So how are you quantifying that Frank plays "solid" defense?

Something has to give.

If you truly value these things from the PG position. Then you would value limiting these same things from opposing pgs. Coaches who value spacing for layups or 3s offensively also value running teams off the 3 point line, not giving up layups, and forcing opponents into contested mid range shots. Because its not just good enough to do those things but to also limit your opponent from doing those things. Frank fills one part of that aspect at a high level. A complimentary player could fill the other aspect. If Frank did both at the level he plays defense then he would be a superstar. He does one so he is a role player.

Or maybe you only "value" these things because you know this isn't Frank's game. Which would explain why you don't value and downplay his defensive impact, as you know he does that well.

I would say we know Franks game, his strengths and weaknesses. The non agenda approach would be to look to cover his weaknesses with complimentary players. While capitalizing on the strengths he already does at a high level, which is a premium ability. While also continuing to work and develop the skills that he does have offensively to become more effective. All pretty standard development procedure and team building for teams not named the Knicks over the years.

Doesn't mean we would be developing a superstar. Means we would be trying to hone someone with unique and premium skill set.

Is frank a 2 way player?

I value a two way players, a player that is really really good at 2 things..

I value a players that FIT the system that he's playing in way more than Talented player who's skills don't benefit or compliment the system..

We don't have the pieces that compliments franks game, or the system, or the coach, and i know you know that..

When I say he's a solid defender, that's not a knock, but let's keep it 100... he's not shutting no one down on his own, like say a gary payton of Ron artest, He's a good solid team defender.

But you can't leave him on the floor when your struggling to score, so now what?

That's why he can't get consistent minutes..

It's the same thing you would tell a player that doesn't play d

You have pretty much said a bunch of nothing.

Frank would benefit from the same thing every player In the lineup would benefit from offensively. Which is a true lead guard to play along side of. Offense has been stagnant without one. You putting that on Frank for not being one because he lines up at PG. Is like me putting that on Morris or Randle for not being able to play LeBron James style.

When White had a 8 second violation that was due to help defense? I would like you to offer more insight on these claims that he is more help defense then shut down. How are you identifying and quantifying this? Fiz last game seemed to avoid looking to play Mitch and Frank together. Bobby Portis and Randle are far from rim protectors. Yet how many layups are they challenging because Frank got beat off the dribble? At the same time Frank not able to really relying on their rim protection to force guards to hesitate from driving. They just can’t get by him. So again how are you identifying and quantifying your statements?

See how the lack of lead guard stagnates our offense due to lack of penetration. Not being able to break a defense down to get easy looks off dump offs or kickouts. That’s what Frank has strongly impacted so far vs opposing teams. This is worth building with that second unit. Get a lead guard to complete the cypher.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
JesseDark
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11/5/2019  5:47 PM
I see Frank has yet to shoot a free throw this season. That is disturbing and indicates his lack of penetration. Come on Frank this is your time to shine.
Bring back dee-fense
ramtour420
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11/7/2019  6:52 AM
Against the Pistons : 39 mins, 5 of 7 from field for 11 points, 4 assists , 3 blocks, 1 reb, 1 steal
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Nalod
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11/7/2019  8:35 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2019  8:36 AM
ramtour420 wrote:Against the Pistons : 39 mins, 5 of 7 from field for 11 points, 4 assists , 3 blocks, 1 reb, 1 steal

Brilliant first half. Did a great on Kennard. The ball movement with him was terrific. Knicks should have had a lead but Detroit missed nothing. Team shot 58% from the field. Knicks 47%. Knicks foul line at lik 60% vs about 80 for pistons. Detroit starters were on fire. Snell 9 for 9 alone!!!!
We had no answer for Drummond once Mitch went down. I doubt even mitch could handle what he gave him. That dude is a beast.

Then what happened? With Christian Wood hitting three’s also the team had to defend the parameter and it got ugly as the lanes were wide open. I thought Randle played really well at times on offense and things looked good. Detroit missing Griff but they were 8th seed last year and sit there currently in this young season.
I’m not going to say I’m super pleased with any loss but taking what we can get the first half was note worthy execution of a plan. Knicks played well enough to have a first half lead but Pistons shot the daylights out. If you saw the game, you got it. If your reading the box score, it won’t tell the full story. There was a six point play and the lead got insurmountable. Knicks could not mount a reasonable comeback as they have this season. This was not the shyt show Sunday night vs. the Kings. This was a team playing. First half in synch. They did not deviate much in the second half on offense but could not get a run together. Detroit kept the pressure on and pt out any quickly any momentum knicks had.
As popular as “Fire Fiz” may be I did not see a team tune out its coach. I also saw more glimpses of Frank and while he clanked his two FT’s can we get an “AMEN” he even got to the line.

Problems: Portis shooting and Morris don’t move the ball and when he forces shots and when misses his man gets down the court and beats him. Snell ran a lot. Have to hope Dennis can return to form and play some two giving RJ some rest. If we can maintain First Half FIBA Frank he can stay on the court. Payton should be good for 15-20 min a game. Perhaps with 4 guards and one not named Ellington we can up the pace a bit.

Frank offense breakdown

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