technomaster wrote:There weren't a lot of better players picked after Frank... but they're painful nonetheless.

Most notably:
Donovan Mitchell (23.8ppg, 4.1rpg, 4.2apg, 36% 3pt, 81% FT)
Kyle Kuzma (18.7ppg, 5.5rpg, 2.5apg)
John Collins (19.5ppg, 9.8rpg, 2apg, 35% 3pt)
DSJr
Damyean Dotson :D

It's not a lot of players, but those top 3 above were picked quite a bit AFTER, so lots of teams also missed out too.

The thing probably most shocking about Frank is how poorly he's shot thus far. I don't think the Knicks would have expected him to be this bad. His shot looked okay, if a bit slow, but given that he's not a primary scorer, they probably expected more craftiness and opportunistic scoring.

Those instincts haven't manifested themselves often in real games. We can point to his "great" game vs Lebron as a rookie as evidence that the ability is there, but games like that have been few and far between.

strong rumors if we took Dennis Mav's in line to take Frank. I think we all read that somewhere. We tend to look at our own team in a microcosm and not consider what other teams do except in hindsight. That does not validate the pick, just shows we might not have been off base as to what others thought of him. Its not like the Mav's took Donovan Mitchel or Kuzma. Every year there are players who exceed their draft position. EVERY YEAR. I am long on record that "Luck is when opportunity and preparation collide". We got Mitch. Maybe that itself negates if frank is a bust. increase the amount of picks you increase your luck. Frank was a Phil pick but we are no doubt drafting very young guys so it should be a comfortable environment for him. Would Perry and this scouting crew have taken him at that position? Who's to say? Maybe Fiz hates him. Maybe Perry hates him.
He played 43 games last year. Is bringing in other guys a sign we were giving up on him? Were the trade rumors valid?
You don't keep a guy because we took him at 8th and little value in return. You either keep him because you think he might pan out, or not. We have to pay him and we have room. Kid does so many things well its no wonder many fans like his game. But he has to hit them buckets!!!!!!
One game at a time.

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Marv wrote:nice nice nice.

is it just me or does frank look like he's utilizing the "nba carry" more?

13 mins
8 pts (3-3 FG)
2 rebs
3 assists
1 stl
1-3 from the free throw line

His plus/minus was +18.

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

The NBA league has become as soft as the over-sea teams.
However, during the NBA midseason some of the playoff teams does add a little hard-knocks in their performance.

Frank and DSJ were not a Top-5 pick in the draft, both players are equally a work in progress having a raw potential to be star role-players in the future.
As a rookie PG Frank did well coming off the bench behind (veteran) starter PG-Jarrett Jack and SG-Courtney Lee. The two guards were not star players, but they were 9 and 11 yr NBA veterans.
Head-coach Hornacek's system and game substitution did have a lot of flaws, especially on the defensive-end, but Hornacek's coaching-system were a 100% percent better than the so-call system head-coach David Fizdale implemented in the following season.

In Frank and Dotson's 2nd season on the Knicks …
Mills/Perry switch head-coaches and provided the Knicks team a much lower level head-coach than they had in Hornacek in David Fizdale.
Plus Mills/Perry provided very low IQ guards to the Knicks 2018-19 roster in (Mudiay, Burke, Baker, and Timmy) whom skills as a 30 minute starter are only useful or valuable in the G-league.
Mills/Perry did not bother to add a decent NBA role-player at the PF position nor at the SF position on the 2018-19 roster to tandem in the front-court with a double-double center Kanter .. which resulted in the majority of Knick-players wanting to be traded before midseason.

The Knicks Program for young drafted players has always been questionable, after the back-court tandem of Sugar Ray Richardson and Ray Williams in the 1980's.
In the 2019 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2017 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2016 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!

Majority of players wanted to be traded? Kanter had no future with team and wanted to play for his next contract. Knick could not trade him and did not even as for him to give up money. His Played great in Portland and went from earring 14mm per, to 5mm per on a two year deal with Boston.
CLee never asked for trade nor did Hardaway. KP sure as hell did. There were rumblings about Frank but he did come public and said he never asked for one. It’s possible his agent wanted him to get minutes. Who else wanted out?

Hornacek is a good coach and a bit old school grumpy. I have no issues with his hiring or firing. Given the roster and situation I’m not convinced he’d done much better than Fiz and perhaps would have lost his team. Fiz had them playing hard and there were few blow outs. I’m not going to defend 17 win and say he did a good job. Knicks have a process/plan that transcends one season. Fiz has a 5 year deal, was in year one, Perry in year two. The original plan was to clear cap space for one “star” to play with KP and build around them with youth. Plan B was open space for two stars. The way things played out one might commend the team for not panicking and moved on to plan “C”.

If you can’t find any form of interest in this squad and in developing yoot perhaps your in for a rough time. Some of us find the process interesting. Some are results oriented. That happens too.
Never in our history except for the late 60’s was the team this stacked with potential. Even then Bradley who sat for two years after being drafted (Imagine that today!) was “too slow” and was a “bust”, Phenom Cazzie Russell had knee issues and really never fulfilled his star promise and Phil Jax a valuable scoring forward had major back surgery which was often a career killer than. He reinvented himself. From all that failure became perhaps one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
My point is the future is wide open but hardly certain. My thought is some of these guys might be great and some won’t. Law of averages. We have more “Potential” because the sheer number of young guys. Yes,, some won’t pan out.

Right now RJ, Denis, Mitchell and Knox might be special. Denis is the old man at 21. Frank Just turned 21 last month. I’m not seeing “special” with him but the intrigue of him turning the corner is something I will watch. I’ll watch his French team if I can. Throw in Iggy, thats 6 players under 21.
Trier and Dotson have limited upside given their ages. That not a bad thing. This young team will fight it out for minutes and their careers. The new guys are not stars, but good role players and proven commodities.
I dont’ care about the past. It does not factor into the future. Its not a question of faith, its math. We need just two players to grow up and be special. Can’t say who they are. I’m good with that.

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Marv wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

Frank hasnt shown anything resembling a "killer instinct". Not about making splash plays. About wanting to knock the other team the F out. Used to be a line about a person playing checkers, when they should be playing chess. Frank needs to play more checkers. Go at the other team without hesitation. Not necessarily like an Oladipo, or a Donovan Mitchell. Enough to keep the D honest.

With the talent we have now in the backcourt, Id be happy if Frank plays well enough to get us a high second round, low first round pick, as part of a deal. If Frank can up his offense a little this season, believe a team like the Spurs might get interested.

apparently a number of people feel like u do, but don't u recognize the irony - he'd be "good enough" for the SAS but not the NYK???? i don't think this can be written off to our "overcrowded" backcourt or our "non-system" basketball. a guy who plays like frank with improved offense is a HIGHLY valuable asset for us to hang on to and play.

No irony here. We have good young guards on this team ahead of Frank who have shown more in one game as a Knick, than Frank has shown in any game throughout his NBA career. And thats before we got Payton, Bullock.

Not suggesting that a little more offense will vault Frank to the top of the backcourt rotation. It might be good enough to get some interest from a team like the Spurs who might need a player like Frank off the bench. Dont see the Knicks shelling out $$$ to bring back Frank for a few.minutes here and there. Not with who is ahead of him. The alternative is trying to get something for Frank if there is a slight uptick in his game. Believe thats the most realistic scenario, absent Frank coming back with a legit offense.

GustavBahler wrote:

Marv wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

Frank hasnt shown anything resembling a "killer instinct". Not about making splash plays. About wanting to knock the other team the F out. Used to be a line about a person playing checkers, when they should be playing chess. Frank needs to play more checkers. Go at the other team without hesitation. Not necessarily like an Oladipo, or a Donovan Mitchell. Enough to keep the D honest.

With the talent we have now in the backcourt, Id be happy if Frank plays well enough to get us a high second round, low first round pick, as part of a deal. If Frank can up his offense a little this season, believe a team like the Spurs might get interested.

apparently a number of people feel like u do, but don't u recognize the irony - he'd be "good enough" for the SAS but not the NYK???? i don't think this can be written off to our "overcrowded" backcourt or our "non-system" basketball. a guy who plays like frank with improved offense is a HIGHLY valuable asset for us to hang on to and play.

No irony here. We have good young guards on this team ahead of Frank who have shown more in one game as a Knick, than Frank has shown in any game throughout his NBA career. And thats before we got Payton, Bullock.

Not suggesting that a little more offense will vault Frank to the top of the backcourt rotation. It might be good enough to get some interest from a team like the Spurs who might need a player like Frank off the bench. Dont see the Knicks shelling out $$$ to bring back Frank for a few.minutes here and there. Not with who is ahead of him. The alternative is trying to get something for Frank if there is a slight uptick in his game. Believe thats the most realistic scenario, absent Frank coming back with a legit offense.

There are many variables to take into account. A team will have to be willing to give up something worth letting him go for. He will need to ask the team for a trade and a new opportunity. If they kept him all season and he barely played. It wouldn't matter to them as it doesn't matter to them paying Taj Gibson 9mil for the limited mins he is gonna get this season. Or Bullock 4mil to miss the season. Or Ellington 7.4mil with no gurantee he beats out Trier, Dotson, Knox for mins behind or next to Barrett. Money will come down to the same thing it came down to this off season. Do they have money to burn to keep Frank around or do they have to be a little more picky.

Elfrid Payton is another variable. If he is a long term answer then that pushes Frank out the door probably. If he is a one year rental and moves on and Smith establishes himself as starter. Depending on how they view Frank's progress by seasons end if he is still on board. Frank may be ready/able to slide into that backup spot for 2021. Another variable is Trier/Dotson getting offers Knicks aren't willing to match because a stud becomes available or something.

For Frank if he isn't getting game mins his key will be if he is showing Fizz enough in practice day to day to want to hold on to him, or give Perry to okay to let him go.

"Killer instinct" on defense but not on offense. I can agree with that. Good defensive things happen when he is on the court. In the knicks dream of dreams he pairs with smith well. I don't see a future with Kevin Knox, all 6-10 of him at Power Forward. I put RJ at the 3 and Frank at the 2 with Smith in the backcourt. I can type it, hope it but I don't see it. Theres a lot of things I don't see, but that does not mean things won't happen as I want them or envision. This talent base is fun see what will become. Trades will happen, injuries will occur and players will develop into what they will become. Is the Journey not sometimes better than the destination? Knicks might win a chip one day and fans can savor that moment but the thrills and chills that got you their are the true pleasure. There is a lot of things I don't see. That don't mean it won't happen. Nalod is arrogant, but not stupid.