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Cap Space : What's the rush?
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Nalod
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7/9/2019  11:04 AM
KP on court performcance will tell the story. Its regrettable that he wanted out for what ever reason.
I agree with Marv that on the surface we don't know the full story.
Basically knicks failed because there was not a locker room attendant to have his stuff ready 24/7?
Lets not forget knicks were great to say "take your time coming back". KP like "Im coming back".
Ok, KP wanted his big extension. Knicks be like "Lets wait until your healthy, and we can have an extra 10mil cap space to improve the team.
KP wants out. Forget who is in charge, do you really want to bank this broken ass franchise on a guy that has not played in 20 months?
His 186 games are:

Year one 72 games
year two 66
Year three 48

On paper everything looks great. Year 4 he sits and wants 160mm contract. In fact, I think we give it to him but then he demands a trade in a way that lowers his value. It was lower due to his acl and limited to teams on his list. He played his card.
Knicks played theirs. My thinking is if he is on the court he will be great. Question is how sustainable is that?

Blame game.

AUTOADVERT
CTKnicksfan
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7/9/2019  11:06 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
MS wrote:What’s interesting in our rush to clear cap space last year, we had an opportunity to move Hardaway for an expiring. Which would have left Courtney Lee who you could have moved for Frank and a future 1 without a doubt. Thus keeping KP.

Listening to Wojo and Ramona on his podcast, he made a point to get into how when KP was drafted they took a car together to the garden, KP told him not to compare him to Darko, and other Europeans. Said all he wanted to do is get better and practice. He also mentioned that on multiple occasions he couldn’t get in the gym because there weren’t staff ready to work with him. He also said on multiple occasions his stuff wasn’t laid out in his locker.

In addition during the Phil Jackson **** storm, the Knicks put him in the middle of the situation and were asking him to take the side of the organization. Which put KP in a very difficult position
because the locker room still had a lot of respect for Melo.

They also said the new regime needed to work harder to repair the damage that had been done.

Everyone is quick to say **** KP and his brother, what has he accomplished? If you’re a budding star, you’re watching this **** show unfold and you want to talk to the owner about the direction of the worst run organization in sports and are denied. Perhaps you would say **** you too.

I have a hard time believing that THJ with 2 years left on his deal could have been moved for an expiring with no other assets attached. Agree with the rest of this though, There was no reason that they couldn't have tried to repair the damage with KP - even after the trade request. That should have been a wake up call. Instead they hit the panic button.

KP marches into your office with brother, tells you that either you trade him to one of his dream destinations, or he's breaking his contract and going back to playing in Europe. Are you going to treat it like a bluff? Or are you going to get as much back as you can for him, before he pulls the trigger?

If anyone hit the panic button it was KP and brother. He was rehabbing from an injury, didnt wait to see what Perry would do over the summer.

I absolutely would have called his bluff - would have looked him in the eye and said, look, we get that you're not happy, but you are our franchise player and we want to build around you. We are not trading you right now, full stop. We will be offering the 5 year max this summer but we needed to hold off for cap flexibility.

He's on the active roster the moment he walks out the door, too, so if he jets off to Spain he starts missing checks. They want to play hardball I would have played it right back. Don't believe for a second that he's taking the QO either. 7'3 guy coming off an ACL repair who hasn't played in 20 months is going to turn down 150m guaranteed to play out a season on a 7.5m QO? Or sit out another year just to get free of the Knicks?

IMO, worst case that would have actually happened is that he goes out and signs a 2+1 offer sheet and the Knicks are forced to match. Then they would be on the clock to trade him before his walk year if he was still disgruntled - but you'd have some time to work on that, and for other things to develop (draft picks, FA signings, KP getting healty and maybe growing up a bit.)

Knicks acted like they didn't have matching rights. Gave up their leverage way too soon, and for too little in return.

Vmart
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7/9/2019  11:07 AM
Nalod wrote:KP on court performcance will tell the story. Its regrettable that he wanted out for what ever reason.
I agree with Marv that on the surface we don't know the full story.
Basically knicks failed because there was not a locker room attendant to have his stuff ready 24/7?
Lets not forget knicks were great to say "take your time coming back". KP like "Im coming back".
Ok, KP wanted his big extension. Knicks be like "Lets wait until your healthy, and we can have an extra 10mil cap space to improve the team.
KP wants out. Forget who is in charge, do you really want to bank this broken ass franchise on a guy that has not played in 20 months?
His 186 games are:

Year one 72 games
year two 66
Year three 48

On paper everything looks great. Year 4 he sits and wants 160mm contract. In fact, I think we give it to him but then he demands a trade in a way that lowers his value. It was lower due to his acl and limited to teams on his list. He played his card.
Knicks played theirs. My thinking is if he is on the court he will be great. Question is how sustainable is that?

Blame game.

The Mavs were not on his list. But the value was low due to ACL. Peak value was when Phil wanted to take offers. But fans got their panties in a bunch over KP and Melo.

GustavBahler
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7/9/2019  11:19 AM
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
MS wrote:What’s interesting in our rush to clear cap space last year, we had an opportunity to move Hardaway for an expiring. Which would have left Courtney Lee who you could have moved for Frank and a future 1 without a doubt. Thus keeping KP.

Listening to Wojo and Ramona on his podcast, he made a point to get into how when KP was drafted they took a car together to the garden, KP told him not to compare him to Darko, and other Europeans. Said all he wanted to do is get better and practice. He also mentioned that on multiple occasions he couldn’t get in the gym because there weren’t staff ready to work with him. He also said on multiple occasions his stuff wasn’t laid out in his locker.

In addition during the Phil Jackson **** storm, the Knicks put him in the middle of the situation and were asking him to take the side of the organization. Which put KP in a very difficult position
because the locker room still had a lot of respect for Melo.

They also said the new regime needed to work harder to repair the damage that had been done.

Everyone is quick to say **** KP and his brother, what has he accomplished? If you’re a budding star, you’re watching this **** show unfold and you want to talk to the owner about the direction of the worst run organization in sports and are denied. Perhaps you would say **** you too.

I have a hard time believing that THJ with 2 years left on his deal could have been moved for an expiring with no other assets attached. Agree with the rest of this though, There was no reason that they couldn't have tried to repair the damage with KP - even after the trade request. That should have been a wake up call. Instead they hit the panic button.

KP marches into your office with brother, tells you that either you trade him to one of his dream destinations, or he's breaking his contract and going back to playing in Europe. Are you going to treat it like a bluff? Or are you going to get as much back as you can for him, before he pulls the trigger?

If anyone hit the panic button it was KP and brother. He was rehabbing from an injury, didnt wait to see what Perry would do over the summer.

I absolutely would have called his bluff - would have looked him in the eye and said, look, we get that you're not happy, but you are our franchise player and we want to build around you. We are not trading you right now, full stop. We will be offering the 5 year max this summer but we needed to hold off for cap flexibility.

He's on the active roster the moment he walks out the door, too, so if he jets off to Spain he starts missing checks. They want to play hardball I would have played it right back. Don't believe for a second that he's taking the QO either. 7'3 guy coming off an ACL repair who hasn't played in 20 months is going to turn down 150m guaranteed to play out a season on a 7.5m QO? Or sit out another year just to get free of the Knicks?

IMO, worst case that would have actually happened is that he goes out and signs a 2+1 offer sheet and the Knicks are forced to match. Then they would be on the clock to trade him before his walk year if he was still disgruntled - but you'd have some time to work on that, and for other things to develop (draft picks, FA signings, KP getting healty and maybe growing up a bit.)

Knicks acted like they didn't have matching rights. Gave up their leverage way too soon, and for too little in return.

Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

arkrud
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7/9/2019  11:26 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/9/2019  11:28 AM
Vmart wrote:
Nalod wrote:KP on court performcance will tell the story. Its regrettable that he wanted out for what ever reason.
I agree with Marv that on the surface we don't know the full story.
Basically knicks failed because there was not a locker room attendant to have his stuff ready 24/7?
Lets not forget knicks were great to say "take your time coming back". KP like "Im coming back".
Ok, KP wanted his big extension. Knicks be like "Lets wait until your healthy, and we can have an extra 10mil cap space to improve the team.
KP wants out. Forget who is in charge, do you really want to bank this broken ass franchise on a guy that has not played in 20 months?
His 186 games are:

Year one 72 games
year two 66
Year three 48

On paper everything looks great. Year 4 he sits and wants 160mm contract. In fact, I think we give it to him but then he demands a trade in a way that lowers his value. It was lower due to his acl and limited to teams on his list. He played his card.
Knicks played theirs. My thinking is if he is on the court he will be great. Question is how sustainable is that?

Blame game.

The Mavs were not on his list. But the value was low due to ACL. Peak value was when Phil wanted to take offers. But fans got their panties in a bunch over KP and Melo.

Now you are talking... fans... its all fans fault.
And Dolan fault who wants to apiece fans so they will continue pay big $$$ they are paying anyway no matter what the product on the Garden hardwood is.
And Mils fault as he is paid by Dolan as so need to follow the orders of the boss.
And Perry fault as he does not give a damm about what clueless fans are crying about, about what clueless boss wants, and his clueless yes-man repeats.
So Perry is not bringing in overprices broken stars, trading 1st rounders, ans laying under over-sized egomaniacs so fans cannot dream about impossible chips and bragging about their team having (and wasting) some star power.
Fans want instant glory, dominance, and dynasties without time, work, and endless chain of failures. And there can be non of this without paying the dues.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
CTKnicksfan
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7/9/2019  11:46 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/9/2019  11:46 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Maybe the situation was too far gone to repair, maybe not. But I would not have given in to an attempted power play like KP/Janis pulled, a week before the trade deadline when KP's only real leverage was accepting the QO.

Maybe offer to work with them on a sign and trade in the offseason, if he's that dead-set on leaving? I don't know. When the trade went down I remember a lot of teams being surprised that KP was even on the market. Could have benefitted from letting a market develop a bit. I think KP's perceived value around the league is greater than the sum of the assets we got in return - whether this FO decided he wasn't worth a max or not. Anyway, I hope DSJr pans out and those picks are good ones, or this will look even more lopsided in a few years.

Vmart
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7/9/2019  11:51 AM
arkrud wrote:
Vmart wrote:
Nalod wrote:KP on court performcance will tell the story. Its regrettable that he wanted out for what ever reason.
I agree with Marv that on the surface we don't know the full story.
Basically knicks failed because there was not a locker room attendant to have his stuff ready 24/7?
Lets not forget knicks were great to say "take your time coming back". KP like "Im coming back".
Ok, KP wanted his big extension. Knicks be like "Lets wait until your healthy, and we can have an extra 10mil cap space to improve the team.
KP wants out. Forget who is in charge, do you really want to bank this broken ass franchise on a guy that has not played in 20 months?
His 186 games are:

Year one 72 games
year two 66
Year three 48

On paper everything looks great. Year 4 he sits and wants 160mm contract. In fact, I think we give it to him but then he demands a trade in a way that lowers his value. It was lower due to his acl and limited to teams on his list. He played his card.
Knicks played theirs. My thinking is if he is on the court he will be great. Question is how sustainable is that?

Blame game.

The Mavs were not on his list. But the value was low due to ACL. Peak value was when Phil wanted to take offers. But fans got their panties in a bunch over KP and Melo.

Now you are talking... fans... its all fans fault.
And Dolan fault who wants to apiece fans so they will continue pay big $$$ they are paying anyway no matter what the product on the Garden hardwood is.
And Mils fault as he is paid by Dolan as so need to follow the orders of the boss.
And Perry fault as he does not give a damm about what clueless fans are crying about, about what clueless boss wants, and his clueless yes-man repeats.
So Perry is not bringing in overprices broken stars, trading 1st rounders, ans laying under over-sized egomaniacs so fans cannot dream about impossible chips and bragging about their team having (and wasting) some star power.
Fans want instant glory, dominance, and dynasties without time, work, and endless chain of failures. And there can be non of this without paying the dues.

You know the old saying “customers are always right”.

GustavBahler
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7/9/2019  12:00 PM
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Maybe the situation was too far gone to repair, maybe not. But I would not have given in to an attempted power play like KP/Janis pulled, a week before the trade deadline when KP's only real leverage was accepting the QO.

Maybe offer to work with them on a sign and trade in the offseason, if he's that dead-set on leaving? I don't know. When the trade went down I remember a lot of teams being surprised that KP was even on the market. Could have benefitted from letting a market develop a bit. I think KP's perceived value around the league is greater than the sum of the assets we got in return - whether this FO decided he wasn't worth a max or not. Anyway, I hope DSJr pans out and those picks are good ones, or this will look even more lopsided in a few years.

My concern in waiting this out would be that the situation would fester, would make the Knicks look even worse. Teams would know how desperate the Knicks are to move him, and the offers might not be as generous as the deal we got.

Its a player's league now. Playing hardball in this day and age can backfire on a team. FAs might he hesitant to play in NY, for fear of not being able to leave if things go bad. If KP was 100 percent, didnt have trouble finishing sessons, maybe some more diplomacy would have been worth a shot. Dont believe KP made a case at the time with his health, and attitude, to pull out all the stops to keep him.

CrushAlot
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7/9/2019  12:10 PM
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Maybe the situation was too far gone to repair, maybe not. But I would not have given in to an attempted power play like KP/Janis pulled, a week before the trade deadline when KP's only real leverage was accepting the QO.

Maybe offer to work with them on a sign and trade in the offseason, if he's that dead-set on leaving? I don't know. When the trade went down I remember a lot of teams being surprised that KP was even on the market. Could have benefitted from letting a market develop a bit. I think KP's perceived value around the league is greater than the sum of the assets we got in return - whether this FO decided he wasn't worth a max or not. Anyway, I hope DSJr pans out and those picks are good ones, or this will look even more lopsided in a few years.

They didn't give in. They had a plan if he wouldn't commit to the Knicks and they went with it. They needed a team that could absorb bad contracts, send back first round picks and send a good young prospect. Dallas met all of those needs. The Knicks had already tried to repair the damage done by Phil but it was to late.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Vmart
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7/9/2019  12:17 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Maybe the situation was too far gone to repair, maybe not. But I would not have given in to an attempted power play like KP/Janis pulled, a week before the trade deadline when KP's only real leverage was accepting the QO.

Maybe offer to work with them on a sign and trade in the offseason, if he's that dead-set on leaving? I don't know. When the trade went down I remember a lot of teams being surprised that KP was even on the market. Could have benefitted from letting a market develop a bit. I think KP's perceived value around the league is greater than the sum of the assets we got in return - whether this FO decided he wasn't worth a max or not. Anyway, I hope DSJr pans out and those picks are good ones, or this will look even more lopsided in a few years.

They didn't give in. They had a plan if he wouldn't commit to the Knicks and they went with it. They needed a team that could absorb bad contracts, send back first round picks and send a good young prospect. Dallas met all of those needs. The Knicks had already tried to repair the damage done by Phil but it was to late.

Don’t blame Phil for this he was long gone. This was all on this managements inability to get in the good with KP. If anything Phil was ahead of the curve when it came to KP’s mindset. You don’t blame the guy who is no longer in the picture.

CrushAlot
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7/9/2019  12:21 PM
Vmart wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Maybe the situation was too far gone to repair, maybe not. But I would not have given in to an attempted power play like KP/Janis pulled, a week before the trade deadline when KP's only real leverage was accepting the QO.

Maybe offer to work with them on a sign and trade in the offseason, if he's that dead-set on leaving? I don't know. When the trade went down I remember a lot of teams being surprised that KP was even on the market. Could have benefitted from letting a market develop a bit. I think KP's perceived value around the league is greater than the sum of the assets we got in return - whether this FO decided he wasn't worth a max or not. Anyway, I hope DSJr pans out and those picks are good ones, or this will look even more lopsided in a few years.

They didn't give in. They had a plan if he wouldn't commit to the Knicks and they went with it. They needed a team that could absorb bad contracts, send back first round picks and send a good young prospect. Dallas met all of those needs. The Knicks had already tried to repair the damage done by Phil but it was to late.

Don’t blame Phil for this he was long gone. This was all on this managements inability to get in the good with KP. If anything Phil was ahead of the curve when it came to KP’s mindset. You don’t blame the guy who is no longer in the picture.

I blame Phil for KP wanting to leave. His brother said the distrust in the organization was because of Phil. KP couldn't get beyond the rift that Phil caused. I think Perry/Mills did a great job being proactive and making the best of a bad situation they couldn't fix.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Marv
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7/9/2019  12:43 PM
Vmart wrote:
Marv wrote:
Vmart wrote:
Marv wrote:
MS wrote:What’s interesting in our rush to clear cap space last year, we had an opportunity to move Hardaway for an expiring. Which would have left Courtney Lee who you could have moved for Frank and a future 1 without a doubt. Thus keeping KP.

Listening to Wojo and Ramona on his podcast, he made a point to get into how when KP was drafted they took a car together to the garden, KP told him not to compare him to Darko, and other Europeans. Said all he wanted to do is get better and practice. He also mentioned that on multiple occasions he couldn’t get in the gym because there weren’t staff ready to work with him. He also said on multiple occasions his stuff wasn’t laid out in his locker.

In addition during the Phil Jackson **** storm, the Knicks put him in the middle of the situation and were asking him to take the side of the organization. Which put KP in a very difficult position
because the locker room still had a lot of respect for Melo.

They also said the new regime needed to work harder to repair the damage that had been done.

Everyone is quick to say **** KP and his brother, what has he accomplished? If you’re a budding star, you’re watching this **** show unfold and you want to talk to the owner about the direction of the worst run organization in sports and are denied. Perhaps you would say **** you too.

Well nobody knows for sure but i’d like to think i wouldn't. That i would have appreciated that this organization featured me from the start, promoted me, started me, supported me, positioned me to be an all-star by my 3rd year. That i was a massive fan favorite, treated like a god in madision square garden. All this in the greatest city in the world with a large latvian population to boot. I still fail to see the wisdom, honor or gain of his move.

Winning is the only thing that matters to players asides from money. The Knicks Mangementbhas failed in that department.

well that’s on opinion. i believe that a guy in his very early twenties isn’t at that point yet where he wants to threaten his team to get to go to wherever a team is winning.

So is everything you wrote Marv. Placing your views of loyalty on to KP makes it all an opinion.

totally agree.

CTKnicksfan
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7/9/2019  12:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/9/2019  12:45 PM
GustavBahler wrote:My concern in waiting this out would be that the situation would fester, would make the Knicks look even worse. Teams would know how desperate the Knicks are to move him, and the offers might not be as generous as the deal we got.

Its a player's league now. Playing hardball in this day and age can backfire on a team. FAs might he hesitant to play in NY, for fear of not being able to leave if things go bad. If KP was 100 percent, didnt have trouble finishing sessons, maybe some more diplomacy would have been worth a shot. Dont believe KP made a case at the time with his health, and attitude, to pull out all the stops to keep him.

CrushAlot wrote:They didn't give in. They had a plan if he wouldn't commit to the Knicks and they went with it. They needed a team that could absorb bad contracts, send back first round picks and send a good young prospect. Dallas met all of those needs. The Knicks had already tried to repair the damage done by Phil but it was to late.

Fair enough, I'll concede the point. I think maybe they could have gotten more assets if they did not prioritize cap space, as opposed to getting the most talent back. But I'm just speculating there, Don't know what was really available or would have been if this had played out past the deadline.

BigDaddyG
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7/9/2019  12:55 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
MS wrote:What’s interesting in our rush to clear cap space last year, we had an opportunity to move Hardaway for an expiring. Which would have left Courtney Lee who you could have moved for Frank and a future 1 without a doubt. Thus keeping KP.

Listening to Wojo and Ramona on his podcast, he made a point to get into how when KP was drafted they took a car together to the garden, KP told him not to compare him to Darko, and other Europeans. Said all he wanted to do is get better and practice. He also mentioned that on multiple occasions he couldn’t get in the gym because there weren’t staff ready to work with him. He also said on multiple occasions his stuff wasn’t laid out in his locker.

In addition during the Phil Jackson **** storm, the Knicks put him in the middle of the situation and were asking him to take the side of the organization. Which put KP in a very difficult position
because the locker room still had a lot of respect for Melo.

They also said the new regime needed to work harder to repair the damage that had been done.

Everyone is quick to say **** KP and his brother, what has he accomplished? If you’re a budding star, you’re watching this **** show unfold and you want to talk to the owner about the direction of the worst run organization in sports and are denied. Perhaps you would say **** you too.

I have a hard time believing that THJ with 2 years left on his deal could have been moved for an expiring with no other assets attached. Agree with the rest of this though, There was no reason that they couldn't have tried to repair the damage with KP - even after the trade request. That should have been a wake up call. Instead they hit the panic button.

KP marches into your office with brother, tells you that either you trade him to one of his dream destinations, or he's breaking his contract and going back to playing in Europe. Are you going to treat it like a bluff? Or are you going to get as much back as you can for him, before he pulls the trigger?

If anyone hit the panic button it was KP and brother. He was rehabbing from an injury, didnt wait to see what Perry would do over the summer.

I absolutely would have called his bluff - would have looked him in the eye and said, look, we get that you're not happy, but you are our franchise player and we want to build around you. We are not trading you right now, full stop. We will be offering the 5 year max this summer but we needed to hold off for cap flexibility.

He's on the active roster the moment he walks out the door, too, so if he jets off to Spain he starts missing checks. They want to play hardball I would have played it right back. Don't believe for a second that he's taking the QO either. 7'3 guy coming off an ACL repair who hasn't played in 20 months is going to turn down 150m guaranteed to play out a season on a 7.5m QO? Or sit out another year just to get free of the Knicks?

IMO, worst case that would have actually happened is that he goes out and signs a 2+1 offer sheet and the Knicks are forced to match. Then they would be on the clock to trade him before his walk year if he was still disgruntled - but you'd have some time to work on that, and for other things to develop (draft picks, FA signings, KP getting healty and maybe growing up a bit.)

Knicks acted like they didn't have matching rights. Gave up their leverage way too soon, and for too little in return.

Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Yes. What if your girlfriend tells you she wants to break up and you make earnest attempts to change, but she's still dissatisfied? You cut your losses. KP made it clear he was going to be a headache. It's tough, but it is what it is. We were trying to move him even before the KD rumors. I don't want to get into he said, she said without knowing the full story. But Fiz went out or his was way to touch base with KP. I'd assume Perry did the same. KP wasn't having it. Heck, we tried to move in the AD deal and the Pelicans wanted Mitch instead. Wouldn't you flip AD for a KP centered package if you were doing that deal in a vacuum? How about for Marvin Bagley? Other teams had concerns about KP too. I don't know the full details, but KP went out and got his own group of sketchy trainers and groupies. I doubt the Knicks would trust their their prized asset to Dr. Gearhead unless KP's camp was adamant about it. There's a lot more to this story we don't know and I don't want to know at this point. KP is gone. Time to move on.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Uptown
Posts: 30878
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Member: #1883

7/9/2019  2:22 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:This free agency feels exactly like 2015 when we burned several million as well on Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Derrick Williams and Kevin Seraphin for $30 million. And we were using the same nonsense talking points about doing it for "veteran leadership" and how we shouldn't worry because they were only "short-term deals". One season later, not a single one of those players were on our team. Had we only used a fraction of the money spent on those guys instead on taking Jason Thompson, Carl Landry and Nik Stauskaus into space (~$20 million), we would've had the 3rd pick in the 2017 draft and the 14th pick in the 2019 draft. I definitely would've preferred those picks.

We ****ed ourselves in the same manner this offseason. We could've had the Warriors 2024 first round pick OUTRIGHT when Stephen Curry will be 36 years old, Klay Thompson will be 34 years old and Draymond Green might not even be on the team. The cost? Taking on Andre Iguodala who provides every bit the "veteran leadership" a Taj Gibson could and likely could be flipped for assets at the deadline.

We could've also had the Heat 2023 first round pick (top 5 protected; unprotected by 2026) when Jimmy Butler won't be in the NBA and Pat Riley might not even be on this plane of existence. The cost? The $10.5 million attached to Mo Harkless, who is a useful player in his own right and might even be able to get you a good 2nd round pick at the deadline.

If it came down to it, we could've still signed the bulk of these horse**** contracts, if that's what we wanted to do. But you can't fix stupid I'm told and the Knicks are exactly that. I just don't understand how the fans aren't picking up on how we're screwing ourselves the same way every year.

Those trades weren't there for the Knicks. Just because another set of teams do a trade doesn't mean that trade option was EXACTLY the same and open for the Knicks. It just doesn't work that way.

The Knicks TRIED to get into the Iguodala trade but were denied.

Heat never offered Harkless to the Knicks.(You might want to consider Riley's history with the Knicks here too...)

Some deals that you see with other teams just aren't universally there for every team.

I posted the same thing in another thread but just like my post, this will be ignored because it doesn't fit into the agenda that Perry doesn't know what he is doing or the should be fired.

Maybe because I posted the same thing one page back..

Missed it...my bad..I did post it yesterday though

GustavBahler
Posts: 41138
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Member: #3186

7/9/2019  2:50 PM
Uptown wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:This free agency feels exactly like 2015 when we burned several million as well on Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Derrick Williams and Kevin Seraphin for $30 million. And we were using the same nonsense talking points about doing it for "veteran leadership" and how we shouldn't worry because they were only "short-term deals". One season later, not a single one of those players were on our team. Had we only used a fraction of the money spent on those guys instead on taking Jason Thompson, Carl Landry and Nik Stauskaus into space (~$20 million), we would've had the 3rd pick in the 2017 draft and the 14th pick in the 2019 draft. I definitely would've preferred those picks.

We ****ed ourselves in the same manner this offseason. We could've had the Warriors 2024 first round pick OUTRIGHT when Stephen Curry will be 36 years old, Klay Thompson will be 34 years old and Draymond Green might not even be on the team. The cost? Taking on Andre Iguodala who provides every bit the "veteran leadership" a Taj Gibson could and likely could be flipped for assets at the deadline.

We could've also had the Heat 2023 first round pick (top 5 protected; unprotected by 2026) when Jimmy Butler won't be in the NBA and Pat Riley might not even be on this plane of existence. The cost? The $10.5 million attached to Mo Harkless, who is a useful player in his own right and might even be able to get you a good 2nd round pick at the deadline.

If it came down to it, we could've still signed the bulk of these horse**** contracts, if that's what we wanted to do. But you can't fix stupid I'm told and the Knicks are exactly that. I just don't understand how the fans aren't picking up on how we're screwing ourselves the same way every year.

Those trades weren't there for the Knicks. Just because another set of teams do a trade doesn't mean that trade option was EXACTLY the same and open for the Knicks. It just doesn't work that way.

The Knicks TRIED to get into the Iguodala trade but were denied.

Heat never offered Harkless to the Knicks.(You might want to consider Riley's history with the Knicks here too...)

Some deals that you see with other teams just aren't universally there for every team.

I posted the same thing in another thread but just like my post, this will be ignored because it doesn't fit into the agenda that Perry doesn't know what he is doing or the should be fired.

Maybe because I posted the same thing one page back..

Missed it...my bad..I did post it yesterday though

So did I, in my mind.

MS
Posts: 26914
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Joined: 7/28/2004
Member: #724
7/9/2019  3:46 PM
This franchise can't be any more pathetic. If the KP situation got bad, then it got bad.

Our owner, literally went on national radio shows telling the world he was ambushed by a fan, that taped him on a phone saying sell the team. Are you ****ing kidding me?! This dog **** franchise has once playoff series victory in 20 years and the 3rd highest prices in the entire league. Grow up.

Security guards removing sell the Knicks shirts off of fans backs? Throwing out Charles Oakely.

Losing free agency to the Nets?! Then floating a story you're not willing to give out the max to Kevin Durant? You gave $50MM to Phil Jackson to run the team! Let's issue a press release apologizing to our fans!! Hi, guys I know we finally drafted a franchise player that we traded because he didn't like the direction of the worst run team in the NBA so we are trading him for cap space that we used to sign 4 journeyman and Julius Randle. We hope you can wait 2 more years till Giannis becomes a free agent.

We will have the same owner and make the same pitch, if you win in NYC you will be a legend. We won't pitch business opportunities because our owner is out playing Jazz in a dive bar in Memphis. We've spent 100MM on coaches that we have fired the past decade, but can't pick up the phone and offer money to RC Buford, Sam Presti, Darryl Morey, or Mashi.

This free agency was just typical NYK. In a rush to do everything.

Here we are, the Kings were able to execute a plan. The Hawks were able to execute a plan. Why don't we seem to have a plan ever. Wait and see is not a plan.

knicks1248
Posts: 42059
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Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
7/9/2019  4:32 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
CTKnicksfan wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Thats crazy. KP made it clear repeatedly that he doesnt like the direction the team is headed, wants out. You want to call the bluff on a player who hasn't been able to finish a season strong (or at all) who is still rehabbing from a serious injury. Why on earth would Perry/Mills drag that drama, possibly into next season, when they can obtain assets for him, and move on?

We're talking about a player who doesnt want to be a Knick, hadnt made a case yet for a max deal because he cant stay on the court. Hasnt made a case that he can play hard for a full season, from start to finish. You dont try to keep around players who have no interest in being there.

Maybe the situation was too far gone to repair, maybe not. But I would not have given in to an attempted power play like KP/Janis pulled, a week before the trade deadline when KP's only real leverage was accepting the QO.

Maybe offer to work with them on a sign and trade in the offseason, if he's that dead-set on leaving? I don't know. When the trade went down I remember a lot of teams being surprised that KP was even on the market. Could have benefitted from letting a market develop a bit. I think KP's perceived value around the league is greater than the sum of the assets we got in return - whether this FO decided he wasn't worth a max or not. Anyway, I hope DSJr pans out and those picks are good ones, or this will look even more lopsided in a few years.

They didn't give in. They had a plan if he wouldn't commit to the Knicks and they went with it. They needed a team that could absorb bad contracts, send back first round picks and send a good young prospect. Dallas met all of those needs. The Knicks had already tried to repair the damage done by Phil but it was to late.

Don’t blame Phil for this he was long gone. This was all on this managements inability to get in the good with KP. If anything Phil was ahead of the curve when it came to KP’s mindset. You don’t blame the guy who is no longer in the picture.

I blame Phil for KP wanting to leave. His brother said the distrust in the organization was because of Phil. KP couldn't get beyond the rift that Phil caused. I think Perry/Mills did a great job being proactive and making the best of a bad situation they couldn't fix.

How did they do that?

Not even a single visit from perry and Mills to Latvia, instead fiz decided to go on his own..

ES
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
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USA
7/9/2019  5:30 PM
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Chandler
Posts: 25959
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Joined: 11/26/2015
Member: #6197

7/9/2019  5:36 PM
Uptown wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:This free agency feels exactly like 2015 when we burned several million as well on Robin Lopez, Aaron Afflalo, Derrick Williams and Kevin Seraphin for $30 million. And we were using the same nonsense talking points about doing it for "veteran leadership" and how we shouldn't worry because they were only "short-term deals". One season later, not a single one of those players were on our team. Had we only used a fraction of the money spent on those guys instead on taking Jason Thompson, Carl Landry and Nik Stauskaus into space (~$20 million), we would've had the 3rd pick in the 2017 draft and the 14th pick in the 2019 draft. I definitely would've preferred those picks.

We ****ed ourselves in the same manner this offseason. We could've had the Warriors 2024 first round pick OUTRIGHT when Stephen Curry will be 36 years old, Klay Thompson will be 34 years old and Draymond Green might not even be on the team. The cost? Taking on Andre Iguodala who provides every bit the "veteran leadership" a Taj Gibson could and likely could be flipped for assets at the deadline.

We could've also had the Heat 2023 first round pick (top 5 protected; unprotected by 2026) when Jimmy Butler won't be in the NBA and Pat Riley might not even be on this plane of existence. The cost? The $10.5 million attached to Mo Harkless, who is a useful player in his own right and might even be able to get you a good 2nd round pick at the deadline.

If it came down to it, we could've still signed the bulk of these horse**** contracts, if that's what we wanted to do. But you can't fix stupid I'm told and the Knicks are exactly that. I just don't understand how the fans aren't picking up on how we're screwing ourselves the same way every year.

Those trades weren't there for the Knicks. Just because another set of teams do a trade doesn't mean that trade option was EXACTLY the same and open for the Knicks. It just doesn't work that way.

The Knicks TRIED to get into the Iguodala trade but were denied.

Heat never offered Harkless to the Knicks.(You might want to consider Riley's history with the Knicks here too...)

Some deals that you see with other teams just aren't universally there for every team.

I posted the same thing in another thread but just like my post, this will be ignored because it doesn't fit into the agenda that Perry doesn't know what he is doing or the should be fired.

it's not ignored and certainly not because it doesn't fit an "agenda"

FO spent all of their cap space in 20 hours. It was gone. it defies common sense and insults people's intelligence to argue that a team wouldn't think of the Knicks in that situation. If the Knicks were willing to take Iggy but with a first round pick with more protection, do you really think GS would say no? Is that because they're afraid they'll help the imminent Knick empire. Is there some past grudge -- maybe they hate Phil and anything he touched?

The only logical answer is that this approach was never part of their strategy for this year.

last year they thought it was fine to suck ass for a higher pick; this year it's not as fine to suck ass for more picks because why??? (my theory is to quell fan revolt and save their jobs for another year or two)

Last year we'll let the rookies play iso, no-D -- don't worry they'll figure it under Fizz's tutelage; this year it's we need "organic" growth with mentoring vets (btw, who hopefully don't punch you in the nose)

It's a perfectly legitimate theory/criticism, and one can always flip your narrative and say these criticisms are ignored because it doesn't fit the agenda that Phil was the worst ever, or that Perry really is our savior (based on his record apparently???)

(5)(5)
Cap Space : What's the rush?

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